patrick.net

Onvacation says

I am MUCH more concerned about the cold civil war going on in America

Sure - me too.

I totally understand and can respect Americans concerned about our financial commitment or the risk of escalation to WWIII.

What I don't understand is the perverse and grotesque villainization of Ukraine for defending themselves against Russia's ham-fisted invasion.

Bizzaro world watching some people who seem to be absolutely gleeful that Russia with the help of jihadis from Chechnya/Syria/Iran and weapons from North Korea destroy tens of thousands of lives.

Look at it this way, if the oligarchs of the US decide to ship all our weapons to the UkiNazis, then there's less hardware available to the National Guard to subdue insurrections at home. It would be like that scene in "Snowpiercer" when the plebes realize that the guards have no bullets in their guns. Given how strained supply chains are, "they" wouldn't be able to replace armaments that quickly. As a bonus, we now know that the high-tech artillery can't shoot more than 100 rounds a day without blooming/exploding.

They got the guns, but we got the numbers
Gonna win, yeah, we're taking over
COME ON!

socal2 says

What I don't understand is the perverse and grotesque villainization of Ukraine for defending themselves against Russia's ham-fisted invasion.

It's not Ukraine that began this. It's the United States that began this. This has been pointed out REPEATEDLY. Victoria Nuland in a tapped call with Geoffrey Pyatt was picking out the next "leader" (US puppet) of Ukraine, 1 week, and 4 days before Viktor Yanukovych was removed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

If the United States didn't overthrow Ukraine, Ukraine wouldn't have gone to civil war with their Russian population. This civil war began because they wouldn't accept the coup. The war in Donbass began in 2014, right after the coup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022)

This has been pointed out, MULTIPLE times, and people just pretend RUSSIA began this conflict.

The US did. They started a civil war, then they started arming "their side", this led to escalation, Russia did the same to "their side", and it gradually built up to a war.

The US doesn't care if every, single, Ukrainian dies. Another work of the fucking useless Neocons. Cost us a 100 billion so far, will probably go into the trillions, has left Europe energy starved, and has made India and China allies with Russia. Fucking brilliant!

richwicks says

socal2 says

What I don't understand is the perverse and grotesque villainization of Ukraine for defending themselves against Russia's ham-fisted invasion.

It's not Ukraine that began this. It's the United States that began this. This has been pointed out REPEATEDLY. Victoria Nuland in a tapped call with Geoffrey Pyatt was picking out the next "leader" (US puppet) of Ukraine, 1 week, and 4 days before Viktor Yanukovych was removed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

If the United States didn't overthrow Ukraine, Ukraine wouldn't have gone to civil war with their Russian population. This civil war began because they wouldn't accept the coup. The war in Donbass began in 2014, right after the coup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas(2014%E2%80%9...

Something about leading a horse to water . . .

Every time I hear about a discussion of Ukraine, it's like the blind men and the elephant.

stereotomy says

Something about leading a horse to water . . .

I'm just sick of it.

If you don't know the US overthrew Ukraine that means either

1) you don't know enough about the situation to know about the Victoria Nuland - Geoffrey Pyatt call and the contents
2) you're an idiot that can't put 1 and 1 together to make 2
3) you're lying about the whole situation, starting with the coup

And I simply can't believe there's anybody that can't put 1 and 1 together.

Ignorance I can understand, even 8 years later, and I think real stupidity is VERY rare, but I am fucking fed up with dishonesty.

Onvacation says

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

they build things to last, we build them to be replaced.

So true. It must suck for planned obsolescence to kick in when you're in the middle of a firefight.

when guns jam it sucks.

cisTits says

Ukey Nazi

Hey, where's the proof of Ukie Nazism? We've been waiting for 9 months already and stll nothing. Even Pukin stopped talking about this nonsense several months ago.

Fragile Western weapons has just downed 6 "robust and unstoppable" hypersonic Kinzhal missiles fired at Kyiv.

The whole narrative about superior Soviet weaponry keeps crumbling further and further. With "hypersonic wunderwaffen" myth gone what's left?

RWSGFY says

Fragile Western weapons has just downed 6 "robust and unstoppable" hypersonic Kinzhal missiles fired at Kyiv.

I doubt this. They fly at mach 6. That's about 2 km a second. Interception would only be possible by creating a collision by calculating flight path very accurately, and having millisecond timing. I suppose it's possible, but I don't believe the US government.

Our government, constantly lies about the success of our military. In Operation Desert Storm, the US claimed, I think, a 90% interception rate of SCUD missiles with Patriots. You know what the actual interception rate was? 0. The Patriots (at the time) were a complete failure against rockets from the 1970s.

I don't know why our government constantly lies. What's the point? It's almost like a wrestling match where they are trying to get people to root on the US side because "they are winning". I don't know why people consider the US government credible after the Snake Island BS or the Ghost of Kiev. I wonder if pranksters create these narratives or our own intelligence agencies do.

RWSGFY says

"The whole narrative about superior Soviet weaponry keeps crumbling further and further."

The Soviets and Soviet weaponry are not fighting in the Ukraine... The Soviet Union collapsed over 30 years ago.

It is Russia or the Russian Federation with Russian weaponry that is fighting in the Ukraine. And yes, Russia is defeating NATO and the US in Ukraine massively and decisively. Denying the obvious does not change the fact.

Russia's going to nuke the Uke with a dirty bomb!

Two hours later...

Russia bombed the Uke's cache of depleted Uranium dirty bombs the EU gave them!

Those Bastards!

RWSGFY says

cisTits says

Ukey Nazi

Hey, where's the proof of Ukie Nazism? We've been waiting for 9 months already and stll nothing. Even Pukin stopped talking about this nonsense several months ago.

Depleted U238 is only chemically dirty (heavy metal) - it has a half life of fucking 4 billion years. A banana (which contains Potassium 40) is more radioactive. For fuck's sake, stop repeating non-scientific propaganda bullshit.

It's heavy metal poisoning. The same thing happens with lead, cadmium, etc.

stereotomy says

Depleted U238 is only chemically dirty (heavy metal) - it has a half life of fucking 4 billion years. A banana (which contains Potassium 40) is more radioactive. For fuck's sake, stop repeating non-scientific propaganda bullshit.

It's heavy metal poisoning. The same thing happens with lead, cadmium, etc.

I don't think it's a good idea to be using essentially nuclear waste in war and if Russia did this, our ever hypocritical government, would be screaming war crimes.

richwicks says

Our government, constantly lies about the success of our military. In Operation Desert Storm, the US claimed, I think, a 90% interception rate of SCUD missiles with Patriots. You know what the actual interception rate was? 0. The Patriots (at the time) were a complete failure against rockets from the 1970s.

SCUDs were first built in the late 1950s.

The Patriot sucked against a second gen ballistic missile.

Everybody is in for a rude awakening if ASMs are launched at a task force; those missiles are simply not going to perform anywhere near Advertised or as they did in Red Storm Rising.

Remember the USAF Sparrow AIM-7 was supposed to have a 70% kill against MiGs; IRL it was 10% against export grade MiG-21s that were mostly without Threat Detectors.

You know, I really don't know how the Russian military matches up to the US military, but there is one key difference I think will play a part.

The US doesn't fight wars with even a mission involved. The aim is to prolong the war as much as possible, and to spend as much money as possible. Russia seems generally to fight to win wars to end them and accomplish some objective.

I do think however, this is a Russian / US proxy war, and as a result, Russia has no plans to end this war, since it costs a LOT more in resources to produce American weaponry than it does for Russia to produce their weaponry. Who runs out of money first, loses, and I think it's going to be the US.

I think we've been making the same mistake that the USSR did for the last 20 years, just endless wars with no purpose or mission, tremendously expensive, allocating a HUGE proportion of the economy to it, and the people making the weaponry don't have much faith in the wars at all, so they don't care if the weapons work.

If I felt this government was actually acting in self defense, I wouldn't mind working for the MIC. I think there's a lot of people like me who steer clear of it. I'm not going to work for a government that has to lie constantly to wage war. I think the difference in the world if we just didn't bother with any of the wars in the last 30 years, is our government would be a lot less corrupt, our economy much more stronger, the US wouldn't be in nearly as much debt, and Neocons wouldn't be running our foreign policy. Hussein might still be around, Qaddafi almost certainly would have been, I doubt Europe would be over-run by refugees, I think Russia would be about the same, a lot less people would be dead.

The_Deplorable says

And yes, Russia is defeating NATO and the US in Ukraine massively and decisively. Denying the obvious does not change the fact.

Surely this is in jest, right? We could wipe Canada out in a week as land neighbors and they have a decent military. Russia is failing as a supposed top 5 military power. There's no disputing this. With a smaller civilian force and military Ukraine has dragged this out what 15 months now?

We occupied two countries in the ME across the globe. Actual combat operations were a few weeks to mostly gain control. I have multiple friends given my age that were there and I was prime age for a draft at that time. It's not government lying. I would trust zero information coming from Russia or Ukraine outside of fighting still going on at this point.

You lose the backing of your population if you admit you're losing. It's all lies. Unless you know someone fighting there personally, no one knows shit. And no, not just someone from Russia or Ukraine, ACTUALLY fighting. They likely don't have much time to make a phone call across the globe to let you know what's going on IF there even is telephone service on the front lines. Satellite phones aren't being used for personal calls to someone in the US in a war zone.

MSM has no one there. I've seen zero footage of anything from the likes of NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, FOX, etc. Anything on Youtube or the likes is likely all stock footage and not actual footage of combat. 90% of Americans give zero shits about this war. Ukraine could be getting smashed. But it's taken 15 fucking months??? There's nothing decisive about this at all. This is their next-door neighbor. They don't have to fly or bring supplies in by sea.

Russia may ultimately "win" whatever that looks like, but 15 months in they're failing or this would have been done and a peace settlement would have been done.

WookieMan says

You lose the backing of your population if you admit you're losing.

You lose the backing of your population when the population finally realizes that their government constantly lies to them to get their backing. People still desperately cling to the hope that the Bush administration made a mistake in Iraq, Libya didn't last long and most people don't know there is a civil war there and slavery markets, Syria is off the back burner, Afghanistan was the first disaster PR couldn't hold together, and I expect Ukraine to be a worse disaster which is why I think the so-called "discord leak" was strategic to soften the blow.

US news media has a trust rating in the teens today.

WookieMan says

Ukraine could be getting smashed. But it's taken 15 fucking months???

It's going to take years. The point is to exhaust resources of each side. Supposedly, Ukraine has a military of about 1/2 million people:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1296573/russia-ukraine-military-comparison/

And 300,000 of them are dead, supposedly. Ukraine military is already finished, IF this is true, and it's going to be mercenaries from the US and EU, and they will be killed. I'll never understand mercenaries. Who would be stupid enough to kill or get killed for a paycheck? If you don't have air superiority, the people on the ground are just sitting ducks.

null says

The US-made M777 Howitzers which have become the mainstay of the Kiev regime’s military forces are quickly “blooming” under intense firing rates, which is to say the front of the artillery barrel explodes and fray’s back, looking much like a precious flower.

Don't you hate it when your howitzer starts blooming?

RWSGFY says

Fragile Western weapons has just downed 6 "robust and unstoppable" hypersonic Kinzhal missiles fired at Kyiv.

I remember back in the day when the only things ROBUST were coffee, cigars, and maybe red wine..now everything can be robust.

richwicks says

It's going to take years. The point is to exhaust resources of each side. Supposedly, Ukraine has a military of about 1/2 million people:

And don't forget to count the women trained with wooden rifles.

komputodo says

richwicks says

It's going to take years. The point is to exhaust resources of each side. Supposedly, Ukraine has a military of about 1/2 million people:

And don't forget to count the women trained with wooden rifles.

This isn't really something to joke about. These people are just going to their death in a futile war. If you can't win a war, you shouldn't fight it. Live to fight another day when you have the chance of winning. This is just assisted suicide with the help of the United States.

komputodo says

RWSGFY says

Fragile Western weapons has just downed 6 "robust and unstoppable" hypersonic Kinzhal missiles fired at Kyiv.

I remember back in the day when the only things ROBUST were coffee, cigars, and maybe red wine..now everything can be robust.

LOL

Earlier I wrote, " And yes, Russia is defeating NATO and the US in Ukraine massively and decisively. Denying the obvious does not change the fact."

WookieMan says

"Surely this is in jest, right?"

No it is not. Just look at the evidence:

1. Crimea is now part of Russia.

2. The Eastern Ukraine, Donbass etc is now part of Russia.

3. NATO is out of ammunition.

4. The NATO economies are collapsing - they are bankrupt.

5. The Russian sanctions are not hurting Russia but they are bankrupting NATO.

You need to ignore the MSM. They are lying 24/7.

The_Deplorable says

You need to ignore the MSM. They are lying 24/7.

^^^ This ^^^

Even after 20 solid years of them lying about anything and everything, people STILL listen to them. George Floyd, Kyle Rittenhouse, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, the elections was the most secure in history, Russian Collusion, Russian Interference, Hunter Biden's laptop is just Russian disinformation, kids with gender confusion that don't surgically transition are at higher risk of suicide, vaccines are safe and effective, masks work to stop the spread, 6 feet distancing slows the spread, ventilators are absolutely necessary, the coronavirus came from a wet market not the BSL5 lab down the street from the wet market, trust fauci, the vaccinated are at risk from the unvaccinated, inflation is temporary, the Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island.

Oh, but Putin invaded Ukraine for absolutely no reason and Ukraine is about to win any moment now.

Is it possible for some people to recognize that we have the USSR's 1985 version of Izvestia and Pravda as "mainstream news".

WHAT the fuck does it take? They're compulsive liars, and it couldn't possibly be more obvious, but I still have to hear people repeating their bullshit and nonsense. AT BEST we have no fucking idea what is going on, and at worst, we do, and it's the exact opposite of the what our "news" is claiming.

richwicks says

This isn't really something to joke about. These people are just going to their death in a futile war. If you can't win a war, you shouldn't fight it. Live to fight another day when you have the chance of winning. This is just assisted suicide with the help of the United States.

I'm pretty sure that Anthony Blinken and Victoria Nuland just want lots and lots of Ukrainians and Russians to die.

So from that point of view, the US-funded war over there is a great success.

The_Deplorable says

Earlier I wrote, " And yes, Russia is defeating NATO and the US in Ukraine massively and decisively. Denying the obvious does not change the fact."

MASSIVELY and DECISIVELY!!!

Do you realize how retarded it is to make such hyperbolic claims?

A massive and decisive victory would not include Russia occupying less land than they conquered 12 months ago - including Russia's 5 month long failure to capture all of Bakhmut.

Russia is right fucking next door to Ukraine and it has been the biggest military cock-up since WWII. Generations will be studying the total failure of Russian planning, logistics and leadership. Russia has pathetically had to rely on prisoners in Wagner to be their cannon fodder and this whole arrangement is falling apart.

But yeah - keep telling yourself that Putin is super stoked about the progress of his illegal invasion.

socal2 says

A massive and decisive victory would not include Russia occupying less land than they conquered 12 months ago

How much British land did the United States occupy during the revolutionary war?

The only metric that tells you anything about who is likely to win, is who can continue to fight. If Ukraine (or Russia) runs out of servicemen, or arms, or weaponry, they are bound to lose. It doesn't matter if Russia doesn't have 1 square inch of land.

Control of land is a canard, it doesn't matter. If Ukraine's government and military cease to exist, Russia can take what they want at leisure, until they run into Poland and possibly other countries.

No point in arguing about it, it doesn't matter what Americans believe, our government does whatever they fucking want with our without support.

Patrick says

I'm pretty sure that Anthony Blinken and Victoria Nuland just want lots and lots of Ukrainians and Russians to die.

There's no rhyme and reason to it in my opinion.

The MIC wants money, the international mafia lost control of Russia when Putin took over, Congress is a bunch of idiots that just follow orders, the English don't want Russia and Europe cooperating, US energy interests don't want Russia exporting energy to Europe. There's a bunch of, stupid, reasons. None of them advantage the United States or the people of the United States.

richwicks says

This isn't really something to joke about.

If I can't joke about it, what should I do? take a selfie with a ukraine flag and state that I stand with them? Send a strongly worded email to my congressman? Any advice would be helpful.

komputodo says

richwicks says

This isn't really something to joke about.

If I can't joke about it, what should I do? take a selfie with a ukraine flag and state that I stand with them? Send a strongly worded email to my congressman? Any advice would be helpful.

Point out to any person that has a Ukrainian flag bio on their profile that none of this would be happening if the United States didn't overthrow Ukraine in 2014, and this war has been going on starting then. If you need proof of this, just ask, and I will provide.

socal2 says

A massive and decisive victory would not include Russia occupying less land than they conquered 12 months ago

Is it russia's goal to have more land? If the usa was invaded and the invaders were to take the west coast and all the shipping ports and airports and coastal military bases, would they waste resources to try to hold on to the Mojave desert?

richwicks says

Point out to any person that has a Ukrainian flag bio on their profile that none of this would be happening if the United States didn't overthrow Ukraine in 2014, and this war has been going on starting then. If

it would go in one ear and out the other

richwicks says

How much British land did the United States occupy during the revolutionary war?

Is this a joke as well? The British had to ship all their soldiers, guns and ammo in by a fucking ship in the 1700's. This is why 2A exists in the constitution. There was zero chance they ever could stop a revolution. The British and French got lucky a lot colonizing places with no defenses against what weapons were available. Russia still hasn't learned this especially in the modern world.

Secondly Russia is literally right next door. The warmest part of their country with the most people. It should have been easy to mobilize a force to take Ukraine in days, maybe weeks.

I'll say it for the 10th time. I give no shits who "wins or loses" this war. Russia has already lost. I don't care about wars of "attrition." Love or hate our ME wars we controlled the countries across an ocean in weeks and then the MIC got their boner and kept fighting "insurgents" for 20 years. More people got shot and killed in JUST Chicago in that time period for Afghanistan.

My point of view is not about "liking" Ukraine or Russia. It's a dumb war. On paper and in the minds of most the world they, Russia lost and are a paper tiger. That's not our government lying to us. That's not even Russia lying. They are admitting it didn't go as planned. I don't get why anyone here has a side anyway unless you admit you're Russian or Ukrainian. Otherwise no one here has a stake in this conflict outside of tax dollars. Both sides are losing and Russia looks weak as shit with their population and "supposed" military armaments and Ukraine is corrupt as fuck.

There was never going to be a winner in this ever. Ukraine is likely toast and Russia will most certainly collapse like the USSR. It's happening. Russia is going to lose it's oil and gas exports. Just wait.

FYI. Find anything printed in the MSM that I just typed. What I type is fact. It's a waste of tax dollars for us. At least not a waste of our kids lives. Russia AND Ukraine are losing... You don't need media to figure this out. Or a link. Just a brain..

Earlier I wrote, " And yes, Russia is defeating NATO and the US in Ukraine massively and decisively. Denying the obvious does not change the fact."

socal2 says

"MASSIVELY and DECISIVELY!!! Do you realize how retarded it is to make such hyperbolic claims?"

It is not a hyperbole. This is reality and it is happening right now.

A US/NATO military defeat in Ukraine has consequences some of which are already taking place. A US and NATO defeat means the collapse of NATO, the end of the unipolar world order, the emergence of a multipolar world order, the collapse of the dollar as an international currency with the ruble and yuan taking its place, the emergence of BRICS as a financial power etc. etc...

After such a military defeat we are not going back to the way we were! <==== Read this again.

The fact that the Globalists are whistling in the dark and ignoring their defeat in Ukraine does not change the fact.

The era of bombing Serbia out of the blue, without rhyme or reason, the invasion of Iraq based on lies, the murder of Gaddafi in Libya, the attempted regime change in Syria etc etc is over.

komputodo says

it would go in one ear and out the other

Probably, but not always.

Eventually you'll hit on something a person DOES care about. They are mostly just empty semi-humans constantly virtue signalling, but hit on something where they ACTUALLY have principles where the government is lying, and they will change after that point.

WookieMan says

Is this a joke as well?

No, it's not.

What I'm pointing out is that Russia is fighting a war of attrition, a proxy war. They really don't give a shit about taking land and holding it. They are destroying the Ukraine military, and depleting resources of NATO and the United States. This war will go on for YEARS.

Stop thinking (and especially claiming) this war is about land, because it isn't. The US has to have some stupid fucking propaganda to pretend that Russia is losing badly, and they will grasp onto ANYTHING to make that case. Remember when Putin had cancer? Remember when the Ghost of "Kyiv" was kicking ass? Oh, a bunch of supersonic missiles from Russia supposedly got shot down, that's bullshit too. All our government does is lie, and lie, and lie and lie and lie and lie. They're lying now.

NATO has been building up since the 1990's and Russia is obviously the target. Russia even ASKED to join NATO at one point, and they were just laughed at. They have tried to make trade agreements with Europe repeatedly, only to have the United States step in an slam sanctions against them. They were falsely accused of poisoning the Skripals which is ludicrous. If the FSB was going to kill a washed up ex-spy, they would have Seth Riched him. You don't use a nerve toxin that only the British and American government SUPPOSEDLY claims they identified. Do you know what nerve agents are like? Sarin, for example, is a colorless odorless liquid. If I put a drop into your drink, you're dead, and so am I because you're going to exhale enough of that shit in aerosol form that I'll get enough as well JUST from you exhaling it. That shit is fucking terrifying. Makes organic mercury seem like a mouthwash. The LD50 is 172 μg/kg. The lethal dose would fit on the head of a pin.

The US arranged the conflict with Georgia and S. Ossetia, Mikheil Saakashvili was obviously our man. Georgia got the same bullshit promises that Ukraine got "oh, you can join the EU, oh, we want you to be part of NATO", all garbage. It's just to create a conflict with Russia. The US was probably involved with that unrest that lasted a few days in Kazakhstan.

The US just keeps poking the bear, poking the bear, poking the bear, while acting like COMPLETE hypocrites for 20 years, 2 decades. The US claims their problem with Russia is that they aren't democratic enough, they jail journalists, they jail protesters - they obviously don't care about any of that, complete liars. There's no diplomats in the United States, Europe is controlled, there's no reason for Russia to cooperate anymore. The US wants a new stupid Cold War which is going to bankrupt the United States, fuck it. Russia didn't want this, Russia won't be hurt by this, eventually the US will either be bankrupt or isolated entirely, THEN Russia can work with Europe. It might be a decade from now.

Every single war the US has instigated has resulted in disaster for the United States, every fucking one for the last 20 years. You think 8th time is a charm? Stupid fucking asshole Neocon mother fuckers, racist dumb ass twats. If this conflict doesn't do the United States in, don't worry, they'll do Taiwan, or invade Venezuela, or some other fucking nation. This 5th column is going to kill us all.

Just remember how good the Neocon's track records is, so far 100% - loss. They're just fucking perfection. Let's keep trying the same thing over and over and over again, maybe this time it will be different???? But remember, if you talk about this, ooooooh, that might be treason. Don't point out what stupid fuckups we have in our State Department. Let's keep the illusion that we shouldn't have lined these stupid retarded assholes up against a wall 20 years ago. They have NO reverse gear, and no matter how much they fuck up, how long they fuck up, the fuck ups are never removed. They are a cancer to this nation.

WookieMan says

I'll say it for the 10th time. I give no shits who "wins or loses" this war. Russia has already lost. I don't care about wars of "attrition."

HAHAHAHA.

You know the reason we were forced off the gold standard? We spent a fortune on Vietnam for 20 years. It bankrupted the nation AGAIN in 1971.

The point of wars of attrition is to cost money and resources. Vietnam was a war of attrition. You know why the US has the #1 GDP in the world? We spend more money on our worthless, shitty military than anybody in the world does. Every dollar spent on a bullet, that adds $1 to the GDP. China, in reality, has already overtaken our economy and they have a military on par with ours.

AmericanKulak says

Remember the USAF Sparrow AIM-7 was supposed to have a 70% kill against MiGs; IRL it was 10% against export grade MiG-21s that were mostly without Threat Detectors.

That was because the AIM-7 had an extreme launch fail rate. Most of them, and that is most, when launched just fell off the rails without even igniting the propellent. What is odd, though, is the Soviets had made a copy of the AIM-7 and deployed it on the MiG-21. If you are talking about Vietnam, that would be the Mig-17. North Vietnam only had 16 MiG-21s and most of them were shot down in just two air battles against F-4 Phantoms (operation Bolo and another day). Also, Soviet aircraft since the later variant MiG-15 (Korean War) had radar threat detectors, and the AIM-7 is radar guided.