patrick.net

I still stand firm about the job situation. There are no jobs because employers are not willing to pay high salaries like before to match housing costs that the current high earners claim are "affordable." Employees are not willing to take a low salary because it can't get you any where. Someone has to budge. And I'm willing to bet it will be the employees.

I just read the article about Pizza Hut. That is no price cut. I worked there in 1997, and the prices are the same. Seems they raised prices on people any now people aren't willing to pay that price. They have to revert to their 1997 price now, just like housing has to. But they'd have problems if they paid $8 in materials for a medium pizza, and $10 in materials for a large pizza now wouldn't they? They'd have to short sell their pizzas, or let the supplier reposess the materials. But never fear... The government will create a National Pizza Association that will buy out all the pizzas at inflated prices.

Double dip my Butt, we never left.

We've been in a full out recession for 3 years now.

What we've had is a less than honest Fed officials, not giving us the straight Dope.
And a House, and Senate that has their head firmly buried in the sand.

Here you go.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Leading-indicators-rise-01-apf-925377635.html?x=0

"Leading indicators"

HOLY "T" total Shit! That is the first time I've seen "Leading indicators" in print in well over 4 years.
Usually they go by how Tim Geitners tea leaves fall in his cup. Or they count the poo, in Barney Franks toilet, to gauge the economy. Or at least to make us feel they are going by "Economic Indicators" wait... WOPE! Oh, they said Leading indicators. Never mind, they found more poo in Mr. Frank Lu than previously expected.
Party on every one, and go long on Banks.

I'll argue that the economy is stable.

What I won't argue is that it's ever going to go back to where it was during either of the enormous bubble periods of the late 90s (tech) or early 00s (housing).

I fully expect unemployment to hover at around 10% for decades to come. The only thing that will change it is a major new societal development on par with the industrial revolution or a major war.

This is the inevitable result of the shift that has been happening for the last few decades. There are practically no lower middle class jobs any more. We have plenty of lower class jobs (think baggers at wal mart), and plenty of upper middle class jobs (physicians, lawyers, engineers, etc.), but the middle is gone -- and it will never come back.

This isn't a recession, or a depression, it's a return to what normal would have been if the dot com boom and the housing bubble had never happened.

You can't maintain a strong economy when the majority of your citizens are unable to make enough money to buy goods.

Kevin,

I disagree that a major war would help. We have thrown so much money through an Event Horizon Called the Military Industrial Complex.

Unless you are willing to destroy the rest of the World's Economies/ Factories, you will not see a repeat of WW2. Maybe if we turn the middle east into ash and glass, we can decon the glass and get our oil without sharing it with the rest of the world. You would of course have to somehow destroy the economies of Asia and Western Europe because they would try and stand in our way.

The one thing we have going for us are the two large oceans that separate us from the rest of the world. The rest of the Americas would not give us any trouble. Maybe Pakistan and India to perform a nuclear exchange and keep China occupied with that crisis. Then Kim Jong could add to the fun by invading S. Korea and drag both Russia and China into that mess. If Iran then took Israel along with a large chunk of Eastern Europe out, We could then feel better about ourselves as we take the Iraqi Oil because there would be no county able to stop us.

@ Kevin - 100% agree, except I do know that things must get much worse. There has only been negative effect on productive and responsible peoples of this nation, and not the gimmie groups. When all of the hand outs to non-productive, irresponsible peoples in this nation (and other nations) are reduced (or removed alltogether) then things will be at the "reset" point and begin to heal. Until we read in the Times, "all those on cash aide will need to come to 1234 Anystreet for their free food and clothes, but cash will no longer be provided", the bottom is not here and the healing cant begin. Just my gut take on things.

@nuttyneutron - If there is a famin, it will have a net effect close to war. If there is a major middle east conflict the oil production reduction will create a lack of food, compunding the effects of war. If China, N.Korea, Russia, and the hostile entities in mexico, Central America, and South America do the unthinkable and attack America (whose defense system is now all in the middle east and seas near Korea/China (from what I've read). We would play hell keeping a direct southern attack away from the Pentagon, not to mention a northern attack right down on the Dakotas. They would then burn our crops, sink our cargo ships, shut down air transport, open all prisons, and just wait for the starving bands of street thugs to reduce the numbers of self-armed freedom fighter types (me, for example). I dunno --- but the next 2 years would be easier to take with some vasoline, it would seem. Just some random thoughts, nothing I can support with data.

I am confident that the US Navy could keep any nation meaning us hard off our soil. The Army may be weakened now, but there are plenty of units that could be fielded to defend the Northern or Southern Borders if needed. Also, the Air Force would be enough to immobilize any mechanized army crossing a border with the flying guns we call the A-10. The enemy infantry could then just be left to starve or picked off little by little.

thenuttyneutron says

I am confident that the US Navy could keep any nation meaning us hard off our soil. The Army may be weakened now, but there are plenty of units that could be fielded to defend the Northern or Southern Borders if needed. Also, the Air Force would be enough to immobilize any mechanized army crossing a border with the flying guns we call the A-10. The enemy infantry could then just be left to starve or picked off little by little.

WTF are you talking about. Invaded by who? China hasn't managed to cross the Formosa straight in 40 years, Russia can barely invade Georgia, and India can't keep up in Ceylon, Mexico hasn't invaded since Santa Anna (just because we took Texas, sore sports), nor Canada since the french and indian wars. Who exactly do you see invading a nation of 300 million people over thousands of miles of ocean? A mechanized army????? Where would they get the shipping tonnage? If the mechanized army and ability to ship it even existed how would it sail in the days of satellite coverage? How much Tom Clancy have you been reading lately? The whole concept is ridiculous. There hasn't been a serious threat of invasion to the American homeland since the war of 1812.

Realistically there is no chance in hell of war with any country capable of actually fighting back, because those countries have nukes.

However, with all this talk of disarmament, you never know. If the US and China both managed to get rid of all of their nukes, a ground war could always be possible.

For a war to be a financial benefit, it must be total war, meaning that you essentially eliminate waste (i.e. *profit*) from the economy as you turn the entire capacity of the country towards the war effort.

That seems unlikely to happen though, so we're pretty much left needing some kind of major societal revolution, and there just isn't any way to see those coming.

On the other hand, this whole strong middle class, low unemployment thing may well just be a historical anomaly. We used to be a planet of obscene concentrated wealth and obscene poverty. Most of us would have been subsistence farmers, or worse, a few short centuries ago, and that goes back for millenia.

Kevin says

a ground war could always be possible.

Not really. The Winter of 1950 was an educational experience for us, a painful experience that kept us rather gun shy in the 1960s when sending our Army men to Vietnam.

With today's missile technology, in any superpower war ships will be sunk much faster than they can be built. To put troops into a troopship would be the same as putting them into a coffin. Over the long run though, disrupted trade will punish the weaker combatant such to deny him the strategic resources -- probably oil, but metals and even food -- necessary to stay in the fight, and that will force an end to the conflict.

bob2356,

Are you retarded? Read the post above mine and think before posting next time. This is an internet forum and lots of crazy shit gets tossed around. I was simply responding to a certain set of circumstances laid out by a previous poster.

-TNN

bob2356 says

American homeland

I wonder if anyone else here find this term "American homeland" as disturbing as I do.

kentm says

I wonder if anyone else here find this term “American homeland” as disturbing as I do.

Just a wild guess: do you find that you get "disturbed" easily?

thenuttyneutron says

bob2356,
Are you retarded? Read the post above mine and think before posting next time. This is an internet forum and lots of crazy shit gets tossed around. I was simply responding to a certain set of circumstances laid out by a previous poster.
-TNN

Yes and my question still stands to both you and bap33. Invaded by who? How?

kentm says

bob2356 says

American homeland

I wonder if anyone else here find this term “American homeland” as disturbing as I do.

Typo I meant mainland. mea culpa.

RayAmerica says

Just a wild guess: do you find that you get “disturbed” easily?

Only by disturbing things, Giggles, and I'm glad that I'm capable of being aware of them. Sadly there's a lot to be disturbed by these days, mind-numbing nationalistic clichés like that one are only a small part of it. Normally I just get annoyed by stupidity because there's so much of it floating around. You know what I mean.

And to the point of the post, yup, and here's something to contribute to the original point of the thread:

Yes Folks, Hindenburg Omen Tripped Again
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26226.htm

kentm says

mind-numbing nationalistic clichés like that one

Could you explain what exactly is it about using the word homeland (even if I meant to say mainland) that is a mind-numbing nationalistic cliche if I may ask? Webster and Oxford both define the word homeland as "the country in which one was born". Since I was born in Virginia that makes America by definition my homeland. What is it about this simple usage do you find disturbing? I will freely admit that if I were intending to use the word homeland I should have used the term my to correctly reference the word. So is it the incorrect use of grammar that is the problem?

Wolverines!!!

No, "mainland" is fine to me, its a simple geographic term... "Homeland" though - its the way "Homeland" is used now in the US in its official capacity and the historical echoes to it that I find disturbing - its a term that came into official use here only directly after 911 and is a word designed to invoke a nationalistic sense, similar to how the word "heimat" was used in Germany in the early thirties. Personally, I live in a "country", not in a "homeland".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

But pardon, I didn't mean to further draw this thread off on a tangent... this was a financial thread not a political one. Here's something to hopefully get this back on track, speaking of wolverines...

Even Tony Robbins Is Warning That An Economic Collapse Is Coming

Pizza Hut sucks ... but, so does Dominos and Ceasars.

Bap33 says

Pizza Hut sucks … but, so does Dominos and Ceasars.

Thank you Bap33. I couldn't agree more. Pizza Slut is no better than those old fashioned frozen pizzas that are like cardboard coverned in tomato sause with tasteless cheese.

I always find a local Mom n' Pop joint. Often the greasiest places make the best pizza.

I have four such places. DaVinos in Pleasant Hill on Morello, Gianni's in Monterey on Lighthouse, Pizza Villa in Merced (get the Delux - trust me), Gino's Pizza in Livingston. All four listed in order of everything important. All worth a try.

Wow, Bap33, thanks for the suggestions!!! :)

I like Merritt Pizza (just down the hill from me one block). And I like Slice of Hollywood Pizza which is by delivery only. Merritt tends to be pricey but Slice of Hollywood reminds me of one of the pizza places I used to go to often in Chicago and it's cheaper than that place back in Chicago! Both places are in Oakland...

Try DaVinos, sim. It's close to the East Bay (to me). If you plan a day in the area shopping or whatever, you can hit the asian place next door too. Not a bad day.

If anyone is either in San Jose or Palo Alto, Pizza Chicago has awesome pizza. If you are health conscious, have them make it with soy cheese. I couldn't even tell the difference. As a matter of fact, I have never ordered regular cheese there. The "Rush Street" combo is definitely the best. It's equivalent to a meatlover's pizza. If you need some veggies, "The Kitchen" is equivalent to what most places call a Surpreme but does not have the special sweet sauce that the Rush Street comes with. The prices are definitely higher than big chains, but well worth it. About $20 for a medium if you want the special combos. Not bad for a gourmet pizza. If you get lucky like we did, our first time dining there, they gave us some coupons which gave awesome deals (like $5 off, or buy one get one). Meatballs on the pizza is a must. Warning: Takes about 30 minutes to cook. You can pre-order over the phone if you want to go dine-in there.

If you're a rightwing nut here you'll love Premiere Pizza, in Santa Clara and N SJ. Owner is quite the rightwinger, he likes talking to his guests occasionally and he was all on about the Antarctic getting colder last time I talked with him. Keeps FOXNEWS on the store's TV 24/7 too. : )

Pizza's not bad, either. He was on Carson back in the 80s since he won a pizza contest or something. Nice guy, just kinda deluded by his personal success I think.

I'm stuck in Utah, where there ain't a good pizza in sight... But might I offer you some green jello and punch?

elliemae says

I’m stuck in Utah, where there ain’t a good pizza in sight… But might I offer you some green jello and punch?

Does the Jello and Punch get seasoned with vodka? :)

Deja vu

Jello and Punch .... I swear my kids watch their show on NICK