patrick.net

I believe that many of the places were not inhabited; in some towns in Florida almost 1/2 are gone until the weather cools down.
I imagine that’s the case with the owners of some of the boats that got tossed around.
I think it sucks over there, but I didn’t visit in the winter, it’s probably nicer then.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/hurricane-ian-could-cripple-floridas-164500343.html

Hurricane Ian could cripple Florida's home insurance industry

cisTits says

No more building on it again. Then this problem is permanently solved.

Another mostly permanent solution:

zzyzzx says

Another mostly permanent solution:

There's no real winning in the path of a hurricane when it's bad. Elevated houses will survive the storm surge, but will still get blasted through by tornado like winds and horizontal rain. The air pressure differentials squeeze the structures even with the windows sealed and cause implosions/explosions.

My wife's relatives along the areas around New Orleans are inured to the idea that their second and third stilt homes along the coast will be blown to shit, so they put disposable furniture in them and make them re-buildable. Sometimes, they jut try to take the stuff out of them and leave the windows open so that the wind blows through rather than imploding the house. One down year, then a few years of enjoyment until the next 'cane blows them through again.

Slab can be suicide, but elevated home can be survivable if you get stuck. I suppose everybody should have a second place they can go to with the expectation that they should have a rebuilding fund and absentee status. Yeah, it sucks for the poor as usual.

In California, the analog are the beach front homes and the stilted homes dangling from cliffs near fault lines. Nice when Ma Nature is in a good mood, but the usual disasters waiting to happen.

That area of Oakland that has the fires every 30 years or so where the canyon becomes a blast furnace was completely re-built in a few years by housing and building gamblers. It will burn down again, but in the mean time, California dreaming on the fault line.

I talked with a real estate agent from Santa Cruz from after the '89 earthquake. She had a nervous break down and went into inpatient for a while, because she had invested every last cent into a wonderful large home on the cliffs overlooking the water. It slid off during the earthquake, the land itself was largely gone, hasta la vista equities. That is absolutely a predictable outcome, since the beaches are erosive over time, the Pacific is always nibbling away at the coast line. It may come slow, it may come fast, but it will always come.

Not to discount the loss of life and estate here, my prediction is the total impact of Ian will roughly be 50% of what the media blew it up to and Florida will be back up in no time.

ohomen171 says

Not readily apparent is an aspect of the law in Florida concerning flood insurance. If your house or apartment has a roof over 10 years of age, you cannot get flood insurance.

Flood insurance is FEDERAL, States have no say. That "10-year-old roof law" has nothing to do with floods, but rather claims fraud. If a roof is older than ten years, an insurance company can reduce coverage based on a roof’s type and age.

zzyzzx says

GNL says

Now he's got 4 feet of water and mud in his house.

Where in Florida? Got a link to a the listing?

@zzyzzx - I'm pretty sure this is his address...27309 Buccaneer Dr Bonita Springs Florida.
How do I look at a live view of this listing and surrounding immediate area?

cisTits says

My fav:

Mine too.

PMSNBC was reporting 100 deaths.

It's 21 unconfirmed deaths, and knowing that the area has 100k's of people, a third of whom are elderly, we expect a few deaths per day naturally, that is, without a hurricane. Maybe a dozen hurricane related deaths, mostly old people who had strokes or heart attacks but refused to evacuate, so EMTs couldn't reach them in time.

The damage is all political. And Tampa Area is full of Very Blue Retired Midwestern Schoolteachers.

I used to think I wanted a slab foundation but now I'm glad I have a crawl space even though I'm not in a flood zone. Just seems to be more forgiving when water is involved or even in an earthquake.

GNL says

zzyzzx says

GNL says

Now he's got 4 feet of water and mud in his house.

Where in Florida? Got a link to a the listing?

@zzyzzx - I'm pretty sure this is his address...27309 Buccaneer Dr Bonita Springs Florida.
How do I look at a live view of this listing and surrounding immediate area?

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/27304-Buccaneer-Dr_Bonita-Springs_FL_34135_M67398-34696

Flood factor is a 9/10!

Flood Factor is extreme, 9 out of 10
Flood Factor™
This property has a 99.80% risk of flooding over 30 years

You would have to be a total moron to buy a house in a flood zone like that unless the house is elevated

Maybe it's just me but if I was to live anywhere that has huricains, flooding. I'd have a elevated concrete house. I'm surprised some of these areas can be insured, common hazard areas should not be covered especially by taxpayers.

porkchopexpress says

I used to think I wanted a slab foundation but now I'm glad I have a crawl space even though I'm not in a flood zone. Just seems to be more forgiving when water is involved or even in an earthquake.

It's a give and take. I love having a basement here in IL. The square footage is taxed at a lower rate, even fully finished. So a 1,500 square foot house now becomes a 3,000 square house with the basement (at least here) taxed at 50% of above grade space. Also the ability to plumb and run electric or low voltage stuff into the upper part of the house.

But. Along with the extra space there's a lot of other issues to address to make it a workable space. Not sure if it's all places, but we have radon issues in the midwest. So most homes have radon systems to remove it. I kind of feel like it's a racket, but most home in rural IL have them.

Then water is still an issue even with a crawl space or basement. All it takes is some high winds or lightening to knock your power out during a downpour. You don't even need to be near a flood plain. Sump pump is off and with the rain coming down, that ground water even with just a 1-2" rain would flood your basement without power. Probably just an inch or so, but if it's finished space, mold is an issue.

If you do right and you're doing new construction in a non-flood plain, I think a slab is better. As in running piping in the slab to strategic parts of the house during construction for after building additions. You could also do a high peaked roof and make the attic accessible and stand up in it. #1 think for me with slab would be radiant floor heating here in the midwest. You can do it with basements and put it between the joists, but heated concrete is much more efficient.

But then you need a whole home humidifier. So many variables just beyond flooding from say a hurricane or being near a flood plain. In ANY place I'd install an elevated gas (LGN or Propane) generator regardless of what type of base your house sits on. Slab, crawl, basement, stilts/posts, etc. Water is you enemy and you need electric to at least attempt to protect the property in most parts of the country. Plus in a prolonged outage losing all your cold food, at least in my case, would be about a $2k loss with our current cold storage situation. I don't think many people realize how close they are to being starving if shit hits the fan and the power grid gets fucked and their basement is flooding with mold growing everywhere.

True about the sump pump and having backup power. I'm having a commercial dehumidifier installed in my crawl space so that it keeps moisture and mold at bay. I've also had my crawl space encapsulated, and I've taken steps outside the house to divert ground water away from the foundation. No doubt it's work but it seems there are more options to remove water and fix things under the house with a crawl space, but it requires money and/or work.

I feel like with slab that if something goes wrong with the foundation (water, cracks, whatever), it's much more difficult and costly to fix.

Another feature of Florida was the massive insurance fraud of roof repairs; this was enabled by the thousands of sleazy shyster lawyers who also abound in this concrete covered swamp.

This resulted in people having new roofs put on at no cost to them; the lawyers got a fee. Everyone won except the insurance companies got screwed. The result was some insurers said fuckit and others raised their rates.

Flood insurance was something anyone should buy living 1 foot above sea level ON AN ISLAND. Don't buy it, lose your shack.

Those shacks which blew away in the barrier islands had to go sometime, or now or later.

No way would I have hung around Sanibel island if a hurricane were predicted to be coming at me.

GNL says

zzyzzx says

GNL says

Now he's got 4 feet of water and mud in his house.

Where in Florida? Got a link to a the listing?

@zzyzzx - I'm pretty sure this is his address...27309 Buccaneer Dr Bonita Springs Florida.
How do I look at a live view of this listing and surrounding immediate area?

If I must guess, your friend bought it for the land value, not the house. It has waterway to the Bay. These lots are hard to come by. Here’s a comp in the area. This is probably what your friend has in mind once he took possession of the property.

This is one of the things I notice on Patnet. People are quick to jump to conclusions. In real estate, people get paid for solving problems or see potential of an asset. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

https://redf.in/HoJfaU

Booger says

Love it. It’s a fair warning. You loot, we shoot. There are no excuses.

Jeez if I was going to relocate to Florida I'd just rent.

Let the hurricane damage and repair bills be the landlords' problems.

I don't get the frenzy to buy! buy! buy! In recent years different cousins of mine bought homes in Sarasota upon retiring in their 60's.

Jeez.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Let the hurricane damage and repair bills be the landlords' problems.

I don't get the frenzy to buy! buy! buy! In recent years different cousins of mine bought homes in Sarasota upon retiring in their 60's.

Valid point. But you're then at the mercy of the landlord to repair the place. What if they're lazy? At least if you own you can hopefully run to HD and get stuff to start repairs the next day. Landlord might have to do that on 10 properties and every employee they may have is running around fixing their own homes and eventually get to yours.

I personally like the control of ownership. I dislike relying on another human that may not be as productive or handy as myself. Also who knows if the landlord has the $$$ to pay the deductible on their insurance. You could be sitting in a moldy, broken hell hole for 6-12 months before anything gets done.

I trust very few people, even friends in a crunch. My wife is the only one I get a 10 out of 10 score trust wise after 25 years. I don't think I could trust my landlord if shit hit the fan with a property. I also would never rent from a friend or family, that's an easy recipe for the relationship to end.

Ownership has its flaws, but I wouldn't rent unless it's a snowbird (from IL) type setup where I'm in a warm climate during the winter. Even then I'd rather just buy something and vacation rent the place to others while I'm not there.

WookieMan says

But you're then at the mercy of the landlord to repair the place

Or just move to a different rental without the complications of selling/buying.

Yeah, yeah, I know: shortage of housing when much of the stock is destroyed. That's a similar problem for a homeowner of a house made uninhabitable.

Eman says

GNL says

zzyzzx says

GNL says

Now he's got 4 feet of water and mud in his house.

Where in Florida? Got a link to a the listing?

@zzyzzx - I'm pretty sure this is his address...27309 Buccaneer Dr Bonita Springs Florida.
How do I look at a live view of this listing and surrounding immediate area?

If I must guess, your friend bought it for the land value, not the house. It has waterway to the Bay. These lots are hard to come by. Here’s a comp in the area. This is probably what your friend has in mind once he took possession of the property.

This is one of the things I notice on Patnet. People are quick to jump to conclusions. In real estate, people get paid...

Yes, I understand that. He told me he was going to live in it. He also told me that even without insurance, if the place burned down, he'd still have to lot which is worth, he said, $350,000. Well, isn't the real estate market starting to crater? Yes, bet big, win/lose big. Time will tell. I haven't heard from him in about 4 days now. I stand by what I said though...he did hit some headwinds. If not for the hurricane he'd still be dealing with getting the foreclosure victim out of there + dealing with Ian + crater. Like I said, time will tell. Imo, parts of Florida are boom and bust and is probably not my cup of tea. Now that the hurricane is "Top of mind" (I'm seeing this phrase all over the net now. LOL), will this effect values for awhile?

He still overpaid for it.

GNL says

Eman says

GNL says

zzyzzx says

GNL says

Now he's got 4 feet of water and mud in his house.

Where in Florida? Got a link to a the listing?

@zzyzzx - I'm pretty sure this is his address...27309 Buccaneer Dr Bonita Springs Florida.
How do I look at a live view of this listing and surrounding immediate area?

If I must guess, your friend bought it for the land value, not the house. It has waterway to the Bay. These lots are hard to come by. Here’s a comp in the area. This is probably what your friend has in mind once he took possession of the property.

This i...

It was listed and sold for $540k. I don’t know if $540k is the foreclosed price. You said he bought it as a foreclosure, which means there’s a high probability he got it at a much lower price. I’m not familiar for FL foreclosure laws to know.

As you could see the sold comps, houses don’t have waterway sold for at least a couple hundred thousands less….

I’ve seen folks who bought this type of property. They can “claim” they live there for more than 6 months out of the year for tax purposes, especially if he’s from the Northeast, while he’s going through design and planning to get approved plans for a new construction. In my neck of the woods, this process takes a couple years. If he’s in a high income tax bracket, claim residency in FL can save him big bucks in a couple years.

Saw a video of Ft. Meyers where the 10 ft storm surge still washed away a house elevated for storms. These damages alway occur with canes and tropical storms to some extent close to shoreline.

I remember the show CSI Miami had a segment where they had several minutes showing hi def pictures of Andrew's damage, which extended like a tornado across the body of Florida. Now THAT was a destructive hurricane, mile after mile of high end homes damaged or destroyed.

Category 4 with sustained winds of 150 mph. Hurricane Ian made its first landfall Wednesday afternoon near Cayo Costa, Florida.
The height of the Gulf of Mexico raised about 15 feet.

That storm surge of 15 feet fucked over people who were in low elevation areas and did not evacuate within the ~21 hour evacuation order.

Lee County got fucked up the most, and issued that late of an order (within 24 hours of storm hitting) cause they were not expecting it to him them.

That is the problem with the Gulf Coast compared to the East Coast like Miami, Jacksonville, Myrtle Beach, etc.

The Gulf Coast is in the "blind spot" so we normally do not get as much warning as the East Coast.

Fortunately where we live, the road along the beach is about 10 feet above sea level and my family and I live 2 miles from the beach and are about 17 feet above sea level.

I read about flood insurance here.

Yes, standard residential property insurance in Florida like HO-3 (detached or townhouse) and HO-6 (condo) does not cover damage due to flooding such as a storm surge from the beach or rising water level from a nearby water body like a bay, lagoon, storm water retention pond, canal, etc.

For a replacement value of $250,000 our townhome about 2 miles from the beach has an approximate annual insurance cost of $1600 (HO-3) +$1500 (HOA master insurance) +$500 (flood insurance), or 1.4% of replacement value.

That is at least double the national average according to Bankrate.

For the time being, it is relatively not expensive to live here even though property insurance has gone up about 25% a year since 2017.
.



.

Eman says

It was listed and sold for $540k. I don’t know if $540k is the foreclosed price. You said he bought it as a foreclosure, which means there’s a high probability he got it at a much lower price. I’m not familiar for FL foreclosure laws to know.

As you could see the sold comps, houses don’t have waterway sold for at least a couple hundred thousands less….

I’ve seen folks who bought this type of property. They can “claim” they live there for more than 6 months out of the year for tax purposes, especially if he’s from the Northeast, while he’s going through design and planning to get approved plans for a new construction. In my neck of the woods, this process takes a couple years. If he’s in a high income tax bracket, claim residency in FL can save him big bucks in a couple years.

I can't confirm this is his actual address. I haven't heard from him to confirm. No, he did not pay $540,000. He said he paid $400,000ish. He said he is almost directly across the canal from this listing...
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/27293-Arroyal-Rd-Bonita-Springs-FL-34135/54935163_zpid/

zzyzzx says

Good call - Exactly what I'm looking for in the end, except maybe a garage/workshop taking part of the ground area beneath the house.

"Home born in a wind tunnel melds efficiency with stylish design" Put this baby on stilts.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/home-and-garden/architecture/home-born-in-a-wind-tunnel-melds-efficiency-with-stylish-design/article28868201/

"
Testing a house in a wind tunnel seems about as logical as buying an aerodynamic toaster.

But here, squarely in the middle of that thin strip of land separating Lake Ontario and Lake Erie near Smithville, air moves quickly … and often. Today, it’s whipping the blades of distant turbines into a controlled frenzy, and reddening the cheeks of architects Alex Temporale and Mark Driedger as they step over semi-frozen puddles on the 26-acre lot to take in Delta House’s three façades."

Yes, but the Florida building code will evolve just like it did in 2000 as lessons learned from 1992's Hurricane Andrew.

That means more regulation which means higher costs with respect to home construction. And it may mean insurance companies requiring existing homes to be modified like they did with roofs requiring the new spiral nails.

Here is something that may be of interest as far as wind force distribution. Now as far as water damage (not wind related) such as surge from the ocean or Gulf, I agree homes need to be elevated so the slab or first floor is at least 10 feet above sea level.

I've seen more about installing breakwater structures (large rocks, etc.).
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My concern is that the storm activity is going to gentrify the Gulf Coast.

It is going to raise the cost of living there in homes that qualify for insurance and are built to the latest state building codes.

That means only the financially comfortable and rich would be able to live in detached homes and townhomes with garages that are within a 30 minute drive of the beach.

The rest (i.e., working class stiffs who work at local resorts, restaurants, nursing homes, etc.) will have to live in Soviet style concrete high rises.

ad says

Fortunately where we live, the road along the beach is about 10 feet above sea level and my family and I live 2 miles from the beach and are about 17 feet above sea level.

How close to the coast for it to flood? 2 miles inland and 17 feet up sounds inadequate to me.

GNL says

Eman says

It was listed and sold for $540k. I don’t know if $540k is the foreclosed price. You said he bought it as a foreclosure, which means there’s a high probability he got it at a much lower price. I’m not familiar for FL foreclosure laws to know.

As you could see the sold comps, houses don’t have waterway sold for at least a couple hundred thousands less….

I’ve seen folks who bought this type of property. They can “claim” they live there for more than 6 months out of the year for tax purposes, especially if he’s from the Northeast, while he’s going through design and planning to get approved plans for a new construction. In my neck of the woods, this process takes a couple years. If he’s in a high income tax bracket, claim residency in FL can save him big bucks in a couple years.

I can't confirm this is his actual address. I haven't heard from him to con...

My guess is he either bought 27270 or 27290 Arroyo Road. Both of these are in foreclosure per Zillow. Looking at the comps, he’ll likely be okay… Good luck to him.

I wonder if when this happens if the local parking garages fill up (if there are any)?

Booger says

How close to the coast for it to flood? 2 miles inland and 17 feet up sounds inadequate to me.

I don't know exactly where ad lives in the Panhandle, but the coast is mainly barrier islands, then Santa Rosa Sound, Pensacola Bay, etc. Besides a small gap between Destin and PCB. So the surge hits the barrier islands first and slows it down. Although Mexico Beach has no barrier island and got smashed a couple years back.

2mi inland you're more worried about wind and flooding from rain. Not storm surge. Water is powerful, but as it hits land it does slow down significantly. I think with Opal it was a 12' storm surge: https://www.weather.gov/mob/opal

My parent's place was 2nd floor from ground. Roof was damaged and they got some water in the condo that way. We're talking 100-200 yards from the Gulf.

Opal’s legacy will always be the devastating storm surge that occurred across the coastal areas of the western Florida Panhandle. Storm surge of 10-15 feet was recorded from Navarre Beach east to Destin with 6-8 feet observed in the inland bays from Pensacola to Choctawhatchee Bay. Opal destroyed most of the homes that were facing the Gulf of Mexico from Navarre Beach to east of Destin.

From the link. I'd prefer to be further inland if it was me, but not for storm surge reasons. I think people look back on hurricane Katrina and think that's how all hurricanes are. NOLA is BELOW sea level. A 5' surge would devastate it again. A 10-15' storm surge on a barrier island destroyed a lot. Inland it was all wind and water/rain damage. It was bad, but inland off water you're generally going to be fine in a hurricane. Unless you're in a trailer.