patrick.net

NuttBoxer says

Patrick says

Commercial property should not be exempt from property tax increases because businesses can live forever, never resetting their tax basis.

Fuck! California already has one of the most unfriendly private business environments in the country. And that's despite Prop 13. Prop 15 will just accelerate the bloat in the most bloated public sector in the US. Don't hold your breath waiting for those trickle down tax dollars to make it to you..

No kidding. What are some of the commenters on this site thinking? Businesses are already fleeing at record rates thanks to high taxes along with retarded Democrat regulations and COVID restrictions.

Raise your hand if you think California's manifest problems is that we aren't taxed high enough?

I understand the arguments how Prop 13 distorts market pricing and lots of people on this site live in California and are screwed out of housing. But we need to have the fuckers in Sacramento reduce our sky high income and sales tax FIRST before we agree to MOAR taxes for a State run with super majority Democrats.

Santa Cruz is a pretty nice example of Prop 13 intergenerational exemptions. Lots of sugar shacks with weed strewn yards, just left because families seldom if ever visit and don't even see a reason to maintain, but it costs nothing to keep them, even without renting them.

Prosperous hippie dippie fluffies who are inheritors are all over the place, some owning condo blocks that their parent owned in the day and they live off of the rents while staring at the sun. You can't always tell who they are, because many don't look that different from the bums, except they have better skin and hair.

One guy a few doors down claims all the Vet benefits. His family has had property downtown and around town that he inherited. He was a draft dodger from Vietnam in the day.

They actually physically caught him and forced him to enlist. He wound up discharged because they managed to keep him out of conflict to be the driver and secretary for an officer. However, he went AWOL to do drugs and women so often, they kicked him out. Somehow, he managed to keep his vet status and all the benefits.

He says he keeps one of his inherited apartments downtown empty, so that he can get stumbling drunk downtown and just go there to sleep it off rather than running into the cops like he did when he was driving. The weird thing is, he acts incredibly sanctimonious about being a Vietnam Vet, and belongs to their group downtown at the Vet's center. If he hadn't inherited money, he would most likely be homeless, he's almost always drunk. He also spends a lot of time with a camper traveling around the West Coast.

Another friend of my wife's inherited a condo block, only works when she feels like it as a dietician, but spends most of her time traveling and living from the income. Many of these types, if they weren't inheritors, wouldn't be here, or they would be struggling and exasperated. There are several other examples. This woman is actually pretty nice, although incredibly naive because of an entitled and protected existence. I feel like a war torn alley cat whenever i talk with her. These people also have the dazed and confused Libby outlook, even with the Hun chomping at their doorsteps.

i told my wife a long time ago that in California, you are competing with the wealthy, and it isn't a fair fight. However, it used to be that middle class was OK, still safe, still reasonably nice, you could still enjoy things reasonably well.

socal2 says

NuttBoxer says

Patrick says

Commercial property should not be exempt from property tax increases because businesses can live forever, never resetting their tax basis.

Fuck! California already has one of the most unfriendly private business environments in the country. And that's despite Prop 13. Prop 15 will just accelerate the bloat in the most bloated public sector in the US. Don't hold your breath waiting for those trickle down tax dollars to make it to you..

No kidding. What are some of the commenters on this site thinking? Businesses are already fleeing at record rates thanks to high taxes along with retarded Democrat regulations and COVID restrictions.

Raise your hand if you think California's manifest problems is that we aren't taxed high enough?

I understand the arguments how Prop 13 distorts market ...

You can't do that by letting lopsided - some would say crooked - propositions stand. It doesn't work. Housing will stay scarce and inflated and you will have more and more homeless shitting on the streets and more and more families cramming 10+ people into a 4 bedroom house, crime etc. The argument that it will make things worse is one more reason for a serious reset/reform. Like politicians cannot raise taxes indefinitely, they automatically lower back after a year and have to be voted in again by the people. Or if you don't have a balanced budget you lose you seat or go to jail, esp. if you raised taxes to balance the budget and still fell short because you slushed it elsewhere. Sure you can keep going this way hoping you and your family will be fine and your house prop 13 protected, but the combined problems - also caused by this - will sooner or later catch up with the best zipcode. CA is doomed and so is the US if the Dems take over until there is some serious reform. This state is ready for the crapper. At least Trump may be able to stave off the looming federal decline if he wins again.

SunnyvaleCA says

Fortwaynemobile says

They should imo limit number f times property taxes can be inherited.

If you mean limit it to 0, then sure! A single inheritance would push the "fix" off for an additional 30 years. California will simply not last long enough to see that happen.

If only there were guarantees on what the money going to state do for us. Right now, it’ll mean nothing for us. Raise taxes to 100% and it’ll still make no difference or be enough

mell says

you will have more and more homeless shitting on the streets

Of course you will. But this is completely detached from property taxes or house prices. CA has Homeless Industrial Complex and bums from all over the country is the grease which lubricates its wheels.

SunnyvaleCA says

I've got a much better way that The Zuck could help: stock should be marked to market yearly and taxed on the paper gains (with some holdback in case of a subsequent stock slump). Plus, income taxes should be paid on any money going to a foundation (slush fund) or other tax-avoidance scheme.

Exactly. Eliminating prop13 moves to a tax on fictional/unrealized gains.

And, yeah, I know several folks from the midwest who have rented for years. Some regret not buying back 10-15 years ago when the first moved to the state - they just couldn't wrap their head around the price of CA real estate. Others see the benefit of renting, which Patrick has pointed out for a while.

I’m for repealing Prop13 completely and then issuing a new law that clamps property tax on primary residences owned by senior citizens at 25% of normal rate.
That’ll take care of the “evicting grandma” argument while turning the tax skate trust fund babies into tax payers.

It should also depress house prices a bit, and obviate the need for all the tacked on house taxes since a lot more people will be paying their fair share. I constantly run into people who inherited their house and use their income to Lord it over the rest of us peasants with their new cars and fancy vacations. While I pay $10,000 a year in property taxes to make sure their stupid kids can go to school.

Fortwaynemobile says

I don’t care about my neighbors taxes. I’m not operating from jealousy, and yes I pay more than my old neighbors.

I agree. Doesn't bother me either and prop 13 lets me KNOW what my future taxes will be in perpetuity, and that these taxes will not be a political football or manipulated by government to get "more". But, had I been a renter for years (thinking CA RE would go down dramatically) and THEN decided to buy, I would likely be a little bitter. Hindsight is 20/20 though....

Illinois taxes for RE go through the roof as they have a flat tax AND they have a massive pension liability that cities need to fund. RE taxes is a political tool to fund the unions.

Shaman says

I’m for repealing Prop13 completely and then issuing a new law that clamps property tax on primary residences owned by senior citizens at 25% of normal rate.
That’ll take care of the “evicting grandma” argument while turning the tax skate trust fund babies into tax payers.

I don't think so. Let say the housing appreciates at 5% over a 15 year period. Taxes essentially double if you tax to market value (house is double the value). Even if they are paying a smaller fixed %, it is still an unplanned cost that likely they cannot endure (still double). Most people - even those owning/buying a house - are flat broke. And there are no more "tacked on housing" taxes with prop 13 unless you consider MR. Your taxes start at the value of the house you purchase at and are capped to specific increases that are known and defined.

Interesting article on how CA buyers tend to stay longer and have more stable minority communities, for whatever that is worth.
https://www.nber.org/digest/apr05/w11108.html

Don't think I want anything to do with something dreamed up by some sanctimonious ZuckFuck Think Tank, that he hires to virtue signal so his LibbyFuck wife might give him a blow job someday.

mell says

Housing will stay scarce and inflated

Prop 13 doesn't create scarcity. High building fees charged by localities, nimbyism, mandated union rate in certain areas for construction, building restrictions due to traffic infrastructure limits, permit restrictions (no ugly houses on a hillside or coastline) etc... do far more to create high prices than prop 13.

krc says

How did Prop 13 "gut" public funding when we are easily in the top 5 per capita for highest tax burden? (by state)

Property taxes are used to pay for public infrastructure. Ever wonder why California has the worst roads in the nation?

epitaph says

Property taxes are used to pay for public graft. Ever wonder why California has the worst roads in the nation but the richest 'public servants'?

There, fixed it.

I’m for equality.
Every man and woman should be equal under the law.
Prop 13 breaks this ideal and favors the old and the wealthy over the young and the working class.
We all should be equal under the law. If you can’t afford the taxes on your house, sell it and GTFO!

epitaph says

Property taxes are used to pay for public infrastructure. Ever wonder why California has the worst roads in the nation?

Uhh - ever hear of a the "gas tax" - also highest in the nation? What were those taxes supposed to go for? haha... :)
Too funny...

Shaman says

Every man and woman should be equal under the law.

Then please eliminate the progressive nature of the income tax if you want "equality under the law".

Prop 13 does favor stability in ownership for sure as it is hard "psychologically" to sell and move elsewhere and pay much higher tax (as the new house you buy will likely be much higher in value). Of course - unless you are able to sell and buy into a county that accepts your original basis.

Shaman says

Prop 13 breaks this ideal and favors the old and the wealthy over the young and the working class.

It's not like that. It is a benefit to you too, you are gonna get old and your income will go down, and almost everyone will live exactly that.

I think inheriting property tax rate is kind of messed up. It is definitely "unfair". However, knowing this government, increasing property taxes on my neighbor will absolutely not benefit me in any way. It'll just give them more money to squander around. I've done this exercise before, we all have. Taxes go up, costs of things go up, but nothing gets better.

I'm ultimately for completely abolishing property taxes on primary residences. Like all of it. Otherwise it's taxed at a whim of unions who will never have enough. Shit I see stories of some jenators making quarter million a year and they get pensions off that too, and we wonder why the state is broke? No tax increase will ever satisfy them. We need less government, not more.

mell says

You can't do that by letting lopsided - some would say crooked - propositions stand. It doesn't work. Housing will stay scarce and inflated and you will have more and more homeless shitting on the streets and more and more families cramming 10+ people into a 4 bedroom house, crime etc.

That's due to central banking and fiat currency, combined with the largest public sector in the nation.

But maybe you can explain to me how giving more of my money to politicians makes my life better?

We've got to right the SS CalPERS before it hits the retirement iceberg. Governor Brown's PERPA reforms certainly helped. As an example, public safety employees went from the Gray Davis 3%@50 (FREE! DOTCOM! MONEY!) to 3%@55 and the PERPA reforms put new public safety employees at the 2.7%@57 years old mark. That at least seems more sustainable. But wait, a lot of the "classic" formulas had pension limits set at 90% of salary. Oh happy days, the 2.7%@57 has NO SUCH LIMITATIONS. You hit 90% of salary at 33.3 years of service and then it's to infinity and beyond. Crap. FICA is for suckers.
That said, bail faster. I'll like vote yes on Prop 15 to split the tax roll.

EBGuy says

That said, bail faster. I'll like vote yes on Prop 15 to split the tax roll.

Just make sure that you are comfortable with this being simply a handout to the CTA and government administration. Nothing will actually get fixed - it will just be another expenditure on top of what CA state government already spends.

NuttBoxer says

mell says

You can't do that by letting lopsided - some would say crooked - propositions stand. It doesn't work. Housing will stay scarce and inflated and you will have more and more homeless shitting on the streets and more and more families cramming 10+ people into a 4 bedroom house, crime etc.

That's due to central banking and fiat currency, combined with the largest public sector in the nation.

But maybe you can explain to me how giving more of my money to politicians makes my life better?

It doesn't but leveling the playing field does fight wealth gaps. Reduce property tax for everyone and install a moratorium on raises. Prop 13 is akin me paying less dmv registration fees because I bought my car back in 2008. I'm not advocating for any propositions, haven't read them, I'm advocating against prop 13 and would instead lower all property taxes an ban tax raises for years to come.

mell says

I'm advocating against prop 13 and would instead lower all property taxes an ban tax raises for years to come.

Which can never happen in this donkey-owned state. So the best we can hope for is to hold on to the status quo as long as possible.

One of the original selling points for Prop 13 was that it allows fixed-income people to afford their taxes.
• An alternate solution to that is that you don't actually have to pay your taxes; have the county just put a lien on your house for the tax amount. Then, when you die and don't really need your house anymore, the county can get the tax out of the sale of the house or from the heir if they want to pay off the lien. In fact, I think that is available right here in Santa Clara county. Remember, the only people who would be facing greatly-increased taxes are exactly the same people who have a huge windfall in property value.

Another of the original selling points for Prop 13 was that people's property taxes were going up massively and very rapidly. Property assessed values were increasing rapidly in some areas and local and state governments kept also increasing the tax percentage — a doubly whammy.
• An alternate solution to that is what I suggested above... specifically define the amount the state can collect in property taxes, which will be increased 2% every year. Asses each property accurately. Then set the tax % by formula so that the total collected exactly hits that target amount. Originally, the target amount could be set at exactly the amount the state collected in the last year under Prop 13 system.

epitaph says

Property taxes are used to pay for public infrastructure. Ever wonder why California has the worst roads in the nation?

That would be a good idea. Unfortunately, California uses very little of the property tax to pay for roads. Most of it goes to public "education" and, specifically, the teachers' unions.

Instead, California passes ever-higher gas taxes to pay for transportation infrastructure. Unfortunately, "transportation" doesn't mean roads. It means not-so-high-speed trains to nowhere, busses that run almost empty most of the time, etc.

epitaph says

krc says

How did Prop 13 "gut" public funding when we are easily in the top 5 per capita for highest tax burden? (by state)

Property taxes are used to pay for public infrastructure. Ever wonder why California has the worst roads in the nation?

CA has the worst roads due to the corruption, ineptness, and malfeasance associated with the spending of road taxes and the molested mis-allocation of other tax dollars where it shouldn’t be.

That’s not due to limiting the amount of property tax dollars the mother fuckers can collect.

TrumpingTits says

California outspends per student South Korea, Singapore, Finland, Switzlerand and a whole lot of other nations that produce way superior results in educational output.

So, so much for THAT bullshit.

1979 I shared 1st grade with my cousin who moved to Houston at the end of the year. Texas made him redo 1st grade because (despite being an uber smart guy who now makes north of 300K in TX) he had no edumacation. Later, my parents moved us to TX and I nearly had to redo 4th grade, but I slipped by, after they decided to split off a 'problem' kids class, before winding up in honors classes a few years later.

Ran into my 5th grade teach after graduating top of my undergrad class in college. Gave her props. She's (was) a good lady.

ForcedTQ says

CA has the worst roads

Finding it hard to replace my old car with the roads we have in SoCal. I almost get the feeling that I'd be abusing a puppy or something.

I think some other states who tax real estate, may tax real estate differently. Instead of a large % of the assessed value, they might split it into 2+ parts

- a low % of assessed value, if any
- a fraction of the city + county costs

A city w/ 100k homes will each pay 1 / 100k of municipal costs. Maybe, some premium neighborhoods might pay a little extra if they want nicer roads etc...

A benefit of this is that your taxes don't go up a ton just because your home appreciates. In my mind, home appreciation isn't likely to make the cost of providing police, fire, utilities etc... rise very much. So, why should my taxes double just because my home value doubled? My taxes should go up maybe 20%, or whatever the actual increase in cost of service is.

I'm sure there's pros and cons to such a change. One that comes to mind is this also changes the tax revenue incentive structure. Taxing on value incentivizes policies that will raise values. Taxing on units may incentivize more units, but also may incentivize efficiency improvements - they would want to build new homes that are affordable for the city to service.

We bought a house in 2012 and it’s doubled in value based off recent comps. But why I should be paying DOUBLE the taxes on our house 8 years later? That seems absurd also.

BoomAndBustCycle says

But why I should be paying DOUBLE the taxes on our house 8 years later? That seems absurd also.

Because you're RICH now! C'mon, man, you know you have to pay YOUR FAIR SHARE!

FuckCCP89 says

BoomAndBustCycle says

But why I should be paying DOUBLE the taxes on our house 8 years later? That seems absurd also.

Because you're RICH now! C'mon, man, you know you have to pay YOUR FAIR SHARE!

Why is any house assessed every year and you have to pay taxes on their assessment? Also the worth of the house itself depending on upkeep, additional renovations and investments shouldn't matter at all, only the land should be tax assessed. Still prop 13 is an exemption for some from a general rule. I'm in favor of Patrick's LVT without considering any of the structure(s) built on top of it.

mell says

Why is any house assessed every year and you have to pay taxes on their assessment?

This is how we in US have decided to do it for some reason. UK somehow survives with RE transaction tax only, no property tax in our sense of the word.

Eric Holder says

mell says

Why is any house assessed every year and you have to pay taxes on their assessment?

This is how we in US have decided to do it for some reason. UK somehow survives with RE transaction tax only, no property tax in our sense of the word.

i know many people from other countries too, nature of the Valley life (russians, ukrainians, armenians, georgians, mexicans). It's surprising how many of them own properties back in their home land and there is no such thing as property taxes there. None at all. And yet that government makes it just fine.

Yet here in CA, taxes are insane, and they constantly cry that it's not enough. It's fucking insane how much socialism we have here.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

i know many people from other countries too, nature of the Valley life (russians, ukrainians, armenians, georgians, mexicans). It's surprising how many of them own properties back in their home land and there is no such thing as property taxes there. None at all. And yet that government makes it just fine.

A lot of them come here to suck at the welfare and government largesse tit while keeping property that they can flee back to at any time. They literally have contempt for USA for being so stupid.

One girl that worked for me said her mother was on every welfare ticket in the book, and owned five rental properties and a small farm in her native country.

A lot of the foreign health professionals are here specifically to tap into the insurance and public health fraud faucet. I heard one doctor say, "It's all about what you can get out of them." when referring to the medical consumer public.

Ceffer says

A lot of them come here to suck at the welfare

I know a couple together make a little over mil/y. The women brought her brother few yrs ago, later parents and bought a Prius and within 2 yr Tesla for them again and put them under gov offered health plan for elders, not sure what else they are after gov programs. He is a retired gov officer from India and still getting tons of gov pension there on top of his life time bribes.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostakovitch says

Taxing a business is worse than shooting babies in the face because theft of shareholder value.

Only tax cuts and shooting poor people in the back are reasonable.

Right, only dumbasses don't know the proper way to kill babies is to use tree trimming shears to snip the spinal cord at the origin of the Ligamentum nuchae.

If that doesn't work the next option is to use a strong dental pick to stab them in the head.

Why would anyone support higher taxes in a state that already has the highest taxes?
Maybe a loser who lives off the system and doesn’t care how many businesses flee the state.
First they go after the “rich” businesses, and next they go after “million dollar” residences and at the end they will tax all of us to death or force us to move to Texas.
No way I’m voting for that! All they need to do is cut spending.

First they go after the “rich” businesses, and next they go after “million dollar” residences and at the end they will tax all of us to death or force us to move to Texas.

Yes, and then the refugees bring the same voting policies that ruined CA and apply them in TX.

I agree with Zuck on this. I voted yes on Prop 15 and will vote yes to repeal Prop 13 for all the reasons stated by others. Then, everyone will freak out and we'll need a better form of levying property tax. I've said this before, but property tax should be assessed based on the size, type and location of the land, not the market price which is what kicks granny to the curb. Taxes should be levied based on the expenses that need to be covered.

CashWillCrash says

Why would anyone support higher taxes in a state that already has the highest taxes?

We're only supporting fairer taxes that get levied equally.

NuttBoxer says

Patrick says

Commercial property should not be exempt from property tax increases because businesses can live forever, never resetting their tax basis.

Fuck! California already has one of the most unfriendly private business environments in the country. And that's despite Prop 13. Prop 15 will just accelerate the bloat in the most bloated public sector in the US. Don't hold your breath waiting for those trickle down tax dollars to make it to you..

"Business unfriendly" cuts both ways with Prop 13. If you want to build a new business, you'll be paying full taxes on your new building whereas your competition, entrenched for 20 years, will be paying almost nothing. So, in this case, Prop 13 further stagnates the business environment.