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2nd Amendment Discussion


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2018 Feb 17, 11:51am   130,707 views  901 comments

by CajunSteve   ➕follow (1)   💰tip ()  

With all the talk about the school shootings, let's take a look at what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Couple things to note in there:

1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.

So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?

In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”

Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??

Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.



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1   deepcgi   2018 Feb 17, 12:47pm  

Those “State” militias were intended to be made up of trained citizens as well, so they would know how and when to use the “arms” right? That makes good sense.

What has changed since then? Well, there are no state militias by the definition originally intended, for one thing. The free State is no longer so free. The governor is no longer so powerful. The Federal government has accomplished its power grab quite thoroughly. Only the Feds control the military. The States have had their teeth pulled out, and as a result, individual citizens feel unprotected.

I see where your argument is headed from a legal language viewpoint, and I agree to a point, but the states have been increasingly diminished in power, and with that loss goes the right to arms.

I believe citizens would trust their governor more than their president, and feel more safe if they knew they could join a state militia like they would a fire brigade. If I were governor of a state like Utah, who has been punished heavily by democratic administrations over the decades, when presidents would declare huge portions of state land to, overnight, be under the full control of the Federal Government, I would command my well-organized and constitutionally-sound militia to report fully-armed to the wilderness or grazing land in question, inform any visiting Federal troops that their commander-in-chief has overstepped his bounds, and ensure they seriously reconsider invading an independent state of the union.

We don’t even think in terms of the powers of the states versus the nation anymore. In my opinion, therein lies a MASSIVE disconnect between the government and its free citizens.

Bring back those state militias, allowing citizens to join and be trained and legally possess their firearms specifically for that purpose, and I would agree to talking about full gun control measures.

I will lay down cash on the coffee table that almost no one originates this point of view, on public blogs, this weekend. People just can’t seem to see alternative points-of-view. What happened to imagination?
2   bob2356   2018 Feb 17, 1:31pm  

CajunSteve says
but the NRA is not far behind.


The NRA is nothing but the lobbying and marketing arm of gun manufacturers.
4   MrMagic   2018 Feb 17, 3:14pm  

CajunSteve says
The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.


Exactly, when the 2nd was written, the available "arm" was a musket. Both the militia and the government had access to the SAME weapons.

CajunSteve says
The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.


Where does it say in the 2nd that government can decide which "arm" is legal for the militia?

CajunSteve says
So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all.


Actually no, there is NO question. It's very clearly stated in the 2nd, "shall not be infringed". What does "infringed" mean?

CajunSteve says
we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual?


Since when does society decide what a individual can have or do. Does society decide how fast you drive on the highway? Does society decide who you should marry? Does society decide what car you drive? Does society decide how big of a house you own?

CajunSteve says
And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??


What "extreme damage" are you talking about?

If you're really worried about damage to society, when does the banning of cars start. After all, 109 people died yesterday in car wrecks, 109 died the day before, 109 the day before that, 109 the day before that. 109 will die today, 109 will die tomorrow.

If Liberals were really so concerned with saving society, they need to focus on what is doing a hell of a lot more damage to society.

It's NOT AR-15's.
5   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 17, 3:15pm  

SCOTUS already asked about "keep and bear" and it was clear the majority views it the same as it does in every other circumstance.

You don't bear a heavy load by placing it in a storage facility and locking the door. You bear a heavy load on your back.

Keep means to personally possess, and not have one put aside in an armory.
6   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 17, 3:21pm  

Repeal the 2nd Amendment. If it's truly that unpopular, shouldn't be a problem.
7   CajunSteve   2018 Feb 17, 3:26pm  

Sniper says

Exactly, when the 2nd was written, the available "arm" was a musket. Both the militia and the government had access to the SAME weapons.




Sniper says

Where does it say in the 2nd that government can decide which "arm" is legal for the militia?


Sniper says

Actually no, there is NO question. It's very clearly stated in the 2nd, "shall not be infringed". What does "infringed" mean?


Interesting. So, you believe that the 2nd Amendment guarantees citizens the right to own any weapon then?

Sniper says
Since when does society decide what a individual can have or do.


Always. That's a key tenet of the Constitution. It's why yelling FIRE in a crowded theater is not protected by the 1st Amendment.


Sniper says
What "extreme damage" are you talking about?


Deaths of school children.
8   CajunSteve   2018 Feb 17, 3:29pm  

TwoScoopsPlissken says
SCOTUS already asked about "keep and bear" and it was clear the majority views it the same as it does in every other circumstance.


Hardly. SCOTUS view on the 2nd Amendment has changed significantly over time.

https://www.thoughtco.com/second-amendment-supreme-court-cases-721399
9   CajunSteve   2018 Feb 17, 3:30pm  

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Repeal the 2nd Amendment. If it's truly that unpopular, shouldn't be a problem.


You forget that most members of Congress are bought and paid for by the NRA
10   MrMagic   2018 Feb 17, 3:46pm  

CajunSteve says
Sniper says

Actually no, there is NO question. It's very clearly stated in the 2nd, "shall not be infringed". What does "infringed" mean?


Interesting. So, you believe that the 2nd Amendment guarantees citizens the right to own any weapon then?


No, tatty/joey/happygilmore, I believe the 2nd doesn't specify that the government can decide what's an acceptable arm for the population, or, to keep it equal to when only muskets were the available weapon, the citizens should be able to choose equal to what the government has available.

CajunSteve says
Sniper says
What "extreme damage" are you talking about?


Deaths of school children.


So, kids dying in car accidents isn't any concern to you? That happens WAY more than kids being killed in schools.

1,600 kids died in car crashes last year. Apparently their lives aren't important to you.
11   Onvacation   2018 Feb 17, 3:49pm  

CajunSteve says


You forget that most members of Congress are bought and paid for

Sounds like a good reason to retain the bill of rights.
Rights are not given nor can they be taken away by a legitimate government.
12   CajunSteve   2018 Feb 17, 4:11pm  

Sniper says
No, tatty/joey/happygilmore, I believe the 2nd doesn't specify that the government can decide what's an acceptable arm for the population, or, to keep it equal to when only muskets were the available weapon, the citizens should be able to choose equal to what the government has available.


That seems like a yes. The government pretty much has access to any and every weapon now. So, you think citizens should too, right?

Sniper says
So, kids dying in car accidents isn't any concern to you? That happens WAY more than kids being killed in schools.

1,600 kids died in car crashes last year. Apparently their lives aren't important to you.


Of course they are. I'm capable of being concerned by more than one thing. Let's try to limit deaths by both car accidents and guns! Sound like a plan?
15     2018 Feb 17, 5:27pm  

CajunSteve says
You forget that most members of Congress are bought and paid for by the NRA


Well, in the last election somebody raised around half a billion more than the other guy yet still lost the election.
16   MrMagic   2018 Feb 17, 5:28pm  

CajunSteve says
The government pretty much has access to any and every weapon now. So, you think citizens should too, right?


When the 2nd was written they both had access to the same equipment.

Where does it say in the 2nd that in 2018 government can decide what equipment the citizens can have? Can you please post that line in the constitution?
17   MrMagic   2018 Feb 17, 5:28pm  

CajunSteve says
I'm capable of being concerned by more than one thing


Not really, all the posts prove that.

Please requote where you were rallying for protecting children from dying in car crashes. I missed that post.
18   MrMagic   2018 Feb 17, 5:28pm  

CajunSteve says
SCOTUS view


Does the Constitution specifically allow for "view" changes to it ?
19   HeadSet   2018 Feb 17, 5:32pm  

As far as what the framer's meant with the Second Amendment, I would seek whether or not a private citizen was allowed to own a cannon in 1820. That would have been within the lifespan of the framers of the Constitution. If in fact a common folk could own a cannon or any other weapon circa 1820, then I would say "shall not be infringed" meant anyone could own any weapon.
20   RWSGFY   2018 Feb 17, 5:48pm  

HeadSet says
As far as what the framer's meant with the Second Amendment, I would seek whether or not a private citizen was allowed to own a cannon in 1820. That would have been within the lifespan of the framers of the Constitution. If in fact a common folk could own a cannon or any other weapon circa 1820, then I would say "shall not be infringed" meant anyone could own any weapon.


Cannons were in legal private ownership in 1775 when the Revolutionary war broke out.
21   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 17, 5:49pm  

Satoshi_Nakamoto says
Cannons were in legal private ownership in 1775 when the Revolutionary war broke out.

Nobody in their right mind would ever send a barque into the Java Sea without a half dozen 36-pounder carronades at the least. Well into the 19th Century.

Or the Bugis-Men (Indonesian Pirates in Demon Masks, source of "Boogeyman" to scare a sailor's child to behaving well) would attack the ship.

Put a few 9-pounder Long Guns on a Merchant vessel and have it cruise up and down the horn. Nothing like a sub-sonic iron ball to learn a Somali Pirate. Or better yet, grape to the wheelhouse.

For your enjoyment, cars versus Civil War Cannon
22   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 17, 5:51pm  

Sniper says
Not really, all the posts prove that.

Please requote where you were rallying for protecting children from dying in car crashes. I missed that post.


I believe this is against the rules as well.
23   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 17, 5:52pm  

Sniper says
When the 2nd was written they both had access to the same equipment.

Where does it say in the 2nd that in 2018 government can decide what equipment the citizens can have? Can you please post that line in the constitution?


Whoa Nelly. Let's back up. Is your position that citizens should have the right to any weapon?
24   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 17, 5:53pm  

Sniper says

Does the Constitution specifically allow for "view" changes to it ?


Yes, I believe it does. It's called interpretation.
25   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 17, 5:56pm  

More Cannon Porn.


12 pounder cannons versus Steel Drums
26   Shaman   2018 Feb 17, 6:29pm  

The National Reciprocity Act would go a long way towards establishing a reasonable militia to protect the common good. Giving people a federally applied conceal carry permit (with required training and background checks) would make a lot of criminals think twice before assaulting a member of the public.
27   FortWayne   2018 Feb 17, 7:10pm  

It pretty much means everyone can have guns, weapons, etc...

It is a right. They should just keep retards from getting guns.
28   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 18, 7:22am  

FortWayne says
It pretty much means everyone can have guns, weapons, etc...


So anyone should be able to buy the MK-44 from the other thread then?
29     2018 Feb 18, 8:39am  

LeonDurham says
So anyone should be able


This is absurd.

Tatty/joey/happygilmore/cajunsteve now leondurham??

the thread is started with one new profile of yours and you jump in with a different profile?

WTF

Just how may ALTS do you have here?
30   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 18, 10:17am  

I believe the above is against the rules.
31   Onvacation   2018 Feb 18, 11:07am  

The bill of rights is no longer covered in elementary indoctrination.

Children are taught that religion is bad, the US is evil, the privelaged must give up their wealth for the good of the oppressed, speech must not offend, and the government will protect you. The constitution and most of the bill of rights are now taught as archaic relics of a racist patriarchal system whose time is ending.

The progressives have no problem keeping the third amendment but they want the rest to go.
32     2018 Feb 18, 2:26pm  

CajunSteve says
With all the talk


Let's talk about this:

33     2018 Feb 18, 2:27pm  

CajunSteve says
Sniper says
What "extreme damage" are you talking about?


Deaths of school children.


If we just could ban AR-15's, no one would be killed or injured in the country anymore.



Oh, wait.
34     2018 Feb 18, 2:27pm  

CajunSteve says
Deaths of school children.


I wonder how many children died from AR-15's versus cars over these years? Anyone know?

35   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 18, 3:49pm  

anon_cf6c6 says
I wonder how many children died from AR-15's versus cars over these years? Anyone know?


Well, 1 child dying from a mass shooting is 1 too many.

Let's do everything possible to prevent child deaths from cars, cancer, flu, and mass shootings. How does that sound?

Our elected officials need to grow a pair and tell the NRA that they can go fuck themselves.
36     2018 Feb 18, 4:13pm  

LeonDurham says
Let's do everything possible to prevent child deaths from cars, cancer, flu, and mass shootings. How does that sound?


Great, so you're starting with the one that kills the LEAST amount first? Why is that?

LeonDurham says
Our elected officials need to grow a pair and tell the NRA that they can go fuck themselves.


The NRA pulled the trigger in the school that day?

Really?
37   LeonDurham   2018 Feb 18, 4:21pm  

anon_cf6c6 says

Great, so you're starting with the one that kills the LEAST amount first? Why is that?


Nope--not starting. Automobile safety has been regulated for a long, long time. We've made laws governing car seats, age/weight limits on front seat passengers, seat belts, crash test requirements, etc.
38   Booger   2018 Feb 18, 4:58pm  

If I can't have my own M134, assault rifle, and some RPG's, then freedom has no meaning.
40   Goran_K   2018 Feb 18, 5:59pm  

I honestly can’t wait to see leftists get what they want, a civil war with everyone else they want to impose their statism on.

Shortest civil war ever.

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