patrick.net

zzyzzx says

Is "competitive wine" anything like "competitive eating"?

seriously who wants to go to drink place to compete!? thats what youre doing at work. much less use your cell phone? wow this is a horrible idea!

In my best shark tank voice, bad idea.

Lomatta Prieatta Whine Bar, where all those 6.0 pantsshitters can go to 'shake the shakes'...

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

How about this:

Get three tastings right in a row - or five in an evening - and get tossed into the steel cage with three naked dancing girls and spend the rest of the evening pestorking...

A tired formula. Starbucks was there first. People want something different, beyond just the usual Bacchanale of writhing nubile bodies and prostate-draining multiple ecstasies.

The competitions you're talking about could be just one feature.

I think a wine bar that featured tasting sized pours of several excellent wines, but at not too much of a markup above a wholesale price, could be a successful place.

If it's combined with a wine store, you could do the bar as almost a loss leader in terms of pricing (still enough of a markup to cover overhead though). Sell the bottles of wines people have to have at closer to retail, but still a very fair price.

Probably tricky, because the key is getting really great wines at great prices, which probably requires amazing connections. You have to be good at buying them yourself, because all the big names that get great reviews aren't going to be available for good prices. Probably not available at all.

So you have to be able to identify and buy the good ones that haven't been so highly reviewed (yet).

I personally can't afford an expensive wine habit, but I could see splurging in a place like that every now and then.

Strategist says

Ceffer, can you make sure Apocalypse does not get carried away.

I'm much more interested in provoking him to new heights.

Strategist says

So you can touch strippers, or you can't? I'm confused.

Strippers can touch you, but not vice versa, so I am told. However, if you are also another stripper, maybe the bouncer beats both of you up. The bouncer doesn't care, he just wants to beat somebody up.

I'm not sure how the stripper bouncer syllogisms work, any philosophy majors?

indigenous says

In my best shark tank voice, bad idea.

I believe the phrase Mr Wonderful uses is - "You're dead to me"

mmmarvel says

indigenous says

In my best shark tank voice, bad idea.

I believe the phrase Mr Wonderful uses is - "You're dead to me"

Obligatory:

In Europe wine is truly a regular beverage (hence the name, table wine). There is wine at every meal. Children get "children's wine" -- a bit of red mixed with some Pellegrino water.

It's not a big deal like we make it out to be here. "Let's bring out the wine, this is a special occasion". Hence, there is a lot more good quality wine at regular prices. Also, Europeans don't tolerate bad quality food or drink at any price level, so there cannot be any "bad wine".

I just think the market is too competitive. Just to the south of you are the real wine tasting areas, if the novelty of the can you identify this wine catches on the places south of you will simply adopt it.

The only success stories i have heard about wine are "Yellow-tail". This because of their positioning of the product against most wines and the snob appeal. IOW they positioned themselves with beer.

Don't forget the three-buck chuck, Patrick.

There's an old expression:

How do you make a small fortune in the wine business?

Start with a large one!

John Bailo says

It's not a big deal like we make it out to be here.

this is one area Muricans excel at, making a big deal out of things.

Ventura, California has a successful venue similar to as you have described.

http://www.venturawineco.com/thecave.htm

They serve food as well as sell bottles of wines in their retail store.

You buy a card, fill it with money, and the wine machines dispense small or large amounts of the wine you wish to taste.
A waiter or waitress serves the food.

It's San Francisco anything will work for while.

Isn't that where the Oxygen bars started? Where are those things now?
They did a killing for a while.

David9 says

Ventura, California has a successful venue similar to as you have described.

But not actually trying to guess the variety and keeping score.

A few months ago, I went to visit a friend in Redlands. She directed me to a warehouse district and told me to pull over across from a nondescript warehouse door. We got out, she knocked and a few minutes later, a guy unlocked the door and let us into what was a very nice little wine bar with a huge selection. Check out info and reviews for The Dregs in Redlands, CA.
https://www.facebook.com/thedregswine

David9 says

Ventura, California has a successful venue similar to as you have described.

But not actually trying to guess the variety and keeping score.

I think a lot of people will be offended when they find they mistake plebeian wine for top shelf.

Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.

New Renter says

Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.

Not so much anymore. Wine is becoming a young, hipster thing. This is who that speakeasy in Redland, CA caters to. They even have a cheat sheet to educate those cool kids.

David9 says

Ventura, California has a successful venue similar to as you have described.

But not actually trying to guess the variety and keeping score.

Unless it is a chateau lafite or similar, does anyone give a damn?

People drink to get a buzz, to feel good, the rest is just something to do. They will rattle off yik yak about the wine, the same with scotch.

The question is what business do you want to get into. With cars it is an image like a BMW or something, they are really in the image business. In restaurants it is the entertainment business and maybe the ego business. In Real Estate it is the security business.

All of them intertwine with emotional reasoning. The car pumps up my image, the restaurant makes people feel happy, RE makes people feel like they have roots. IOW you sell the sizzle.

What business is the wine business really?

But not actually trying to guess the variety and keeping score.

Yes, that is your idea and addition.

I just thought I would mention the two other revenue streams, the appetizers to go with the wine and selling the bottles of wine the client likes.

One cannot have too many revenue streams !

I am sure you do not need me to tell you that. ;-)

New Renter says

David9 says

Ventura, California has a successful venue similar to as you have described.

But not actually trying to guess the variety and keeping score.

I think a lot of people will be offended when they find they mistake plebeian wine for top shelf.

Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.

That's the real downside risk. Despite all the talk about chocolate or tobacco finishes, with a hint of lavender, most people are rubes with unsophisticated palettes. Therefore, most will go away diminished in their esteem...and who wants to pay for that?

But I like the idea!

I am not sure folks would be eager to invest in a venture in which the entrepreneur lacks experience.

NR said: Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.
That is the point of the app. No one to talk down to you.
Choose your level.... Imagine a complete novice.
First flight question:
You just drank a?
1. Red wine
2. White wine
3. Rose
You work your way up to guessing varietals as your comfort level increases. I think the "robot sommelier" is the key to all this.

is there some sort of northern california merit badge for guessing wine varieties or something?

New Renter says

Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.

What I can't mix my Red Wine with my Diet Doctor Pepper on Ice?

CaptainShuddup says

What I can't mix my Red Wine with my Diet Doctor Pepper on Ice?

Clearly Captn you are one of the sophisticates.

CaptainShuddup says

New Renter says

Wine is a snobby thing, with lots of egos to stroke.

What I can't mix my Red Wine with my Diet Doctor Pepper on Ice?

You should pitch that to Bartles & Jaymes.

See how many bottles of Night Train or Gallo Pagan Pink florid cirrhotics can consume before being hauled to the ER. Now, that's sophistication!

David9 says

I just thought I would mention the two other revenue streams, the appetizers to go with the wine and selling the bottles of wine the client likes.

Yes! OK, that's three streams.

CL says

Therefore, most will go away diminished in their esteem...and who wants to pay for that?

No, most people know at some level that they cannot correctly identify wine varieties. It's a game you play with friends, with winners and losers, and the opportunity to improve.

No, most people know at some level that they cannot correctly identify wine varieties. It's a game you play with friends, with winners and losers, and the opportunity to improve.

I get it--that's what I like about it. I just wonder how many phonies will be embarrassed by the results. I've known a lot of people who pretend to know the differences, but aside from vocabulary are probably just drunks. :)

CL says

I've known a lot of people who pretend to know the differences, but aside from vocabulary are probably just drunks. :)

Which may be a significant portion of the customer base.

Something that might be fun to do that won't bruise egos: Wine blending.

Take for example a Cotes-du-Rhone style GSM blend.

Taste a nice Rhone style blended wine along with good examples of the constituents (e.g. a bottle of Grenache, a bottle of Syrah and a bottle of Mouverde). Try to pick out the contributions made by each constituent and then make your own blend to see how well it stacks up.

Best to keep it simple though, maybe 2-5 constituents.

Not sure how I missed this thread, but as someone who makes their living helping new businesses start on the right foot, let me offer my 2 cents.

1. Is Kickstarter the appropriate place to propose what is nothing more than a "for profit" venture? I have a couple of artsy non-profit clients who used it, but never anything so strictly capitalistic as this. I guess we shall see...

2. Just so you know, gigantic round numbers (i.e. you asking for a million dollars) is a big red flag. Some of my insanely rich clients ask me to help them choose among donors, and the ones that I/we gravitate towards have a plan of attack, and a well tallied, well thought out amount (i.e. 357K for staff, 80K advertising, 220K inventory 61K for X, 44K for Y = 837K) not exact math, but you get the idea.

By contrast, giant round numbers says, "I don't know how much I need - I really don't give a shit", I am too lazy to actually develop a business plan and come up with some specifics, so I will just throw some gigantic number against the wall and see if anything sticks. Again, I guess we shall see how your campaign goes.

3. You are about to be shocked by how anti-tenant a modern, commercial triple-net lease can be. For starters, you should know the landlord expects to front you a sum of cash to do the build out, and this amount is then amortized and added to the rent. I am guessing you don't know this as you are asking for $$$ for the build out.

4. In any event, even if you do get $$$ for a build out, a landlord is going to look at you very skeptically because you have no business experience whatsoever. You almost certainly will have to personally guarantee your lease (and unlike residential, landlords have no duty to mitigate - they can sue you for the full 3-5-10 year amount).

Because you are so green, the landlord will ask for substantial collateral. Unfortunately, since you don't have a house to pledge, they likely will want to have a security interest in your cash/ and or retirement fund. Bottom line, expect to be SHOCKED at how badly you can be abused by your landlord in an ultra competitive commercial market as SF. Frankly, knowing you as I do, I don't think you have the gumption to sign even the most tenant friendly commercial lease. Either way, expect to budget another 3-5K for a commercial attorney to negotiate the lease on your behalf. A good attorney has negotiated several times for both the tenant and landlord, and knows precisely which terms are negotiable, and which terms (if you try to negotiate them) will cause the landlord to give you the middle finger, and sign someone else.

5. Lastly, from a business standpoint, you seem to focus on varietals, but what about blends? Outside of California, the vast majority of the winemaking world focuses on the concept of "terrior" meaning the wine variety itself is not as important as the place which it came from (i.e. burgundy, the rhone, ribera del Duero...) For example, a good puligny montrachet (strictly chardonnay) tastes nothing at all like any chardonnay made anywhere else - how do you plan to account for that?

John Bailo says

Hence, there is a lot more good quality wine at regular prices. Also, Europeans don't tolerate bad quality food or drink at any price level, so there cannot be any "bad wine".

There is most certainly bad wine and bad food to be had in europe. I've found it more than once. The french actually make some crappy dishes on purpose specifically to serve to the germans. I once tried to order pork cutlet in the camargue and the hostess refused to serve it to me saying it was for the germans not pour vous monsieur. If I wasn't a french speaker (well back then I was) I'm sure she would have dumped it on my table without a qualm.

@patrick rent a movie called mondovino (means world of wine in italian) sometime. pretty interesting stuff about the inner workings of the wine industry. Probably tough to find, it's a minor art film all shot with a hand camera. Won a bunch of awards at film festivals around the world I don't think there was ever an actual general release to commercial theatres.

I don't know anyone who does it, probably some marketing research is something to try...? I've not been to SF in many years, so I don't know if that kind of thing would take off there or not.

I've seen wine bars come and go, but the ones that stick (besides good location) have really good appetizers and food pairings because anyone can go buy wine on their own for much cheaper.

Wine bar, sounds like a regular bar without anything that I would drink?

Anything is possible: Why Mark Cuban Invested $1 Million In This Boxed Wine Company On 'Shark Tank' despite Mr Wonderful declaring "This tastes like sh--." Neon colored fruit wines, who knew...
How about this Patrick? You could add an element like: This wine was reviewed in BLANK. The reviewer said it contains hints of:
1. Raspberries
2. Pineapple
3. Old armchair
Then guess the varietal.