patrick.net

I can’t speak for gluten but I can tell you with certainty that when I cut out refined carbohydrates (bread, tortillas, etc) for longer than 10 or so days, after that period I feel significantly better physically and have more energy throughout the day.

Patrick says

5,000 years of eating bread and we got provably shorter, with worse bones, teeth and overall health. Sure though, we can misrepresent the problem by saying gluten is now the problem.

DhammaStep says

5,000 years of eating bread and we got provably shorter, with worse bones, teeth and overall health.

Until the Industrial revolution the average lifespan was mid 30's. You only made it past 50 if you were a well taken care of leader or from the ruling class.

Gluten is not bad for you unless you are in the 1% who have celiac disease. Same goes for most other foods, if you are not allergic against them, they are mostly good for you in moderation.

Shaman says

So the same researcher who "discovered" gluten sensitivity for non-celiac patients has debunked his own work with nothing less than a rigorous application of science. His conclusion: perceived sensitivity to gluten is triggered by other factors including psychological cause. Approximately 1% of adults have a gluten allergy, known as celiac disease. So what's this say about the 18% of people who currently eat a gluten-free diet? Here's the article:

http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-replication-2014-5

Yep, used to be the fastest way to make a million bucks was to start your own religion. (Direct quote from L. Ron Hubbard.)
Now, any ol' weird foodie cult will do.

Tenpoundbass says

Until the Industrial revolution the average lifespan was mid 30's. You only made it past 50 if you were a well taken care of leader or from the ruling class.

This is bullshit, trying walking through a cemetery sometime. The one by my house goes back to 1860's, and I see plenty of people who lived to be 70-100 who were born before the industrial revolution. And where I live is still outside of the city. The poor hygiene issues that caused a lot of diseases have always been the problem of cities, not of people. Going all the way back to the great plague in Europe.

Since the industrial revolution and the takeover of medicine by Rockefeller we have seen a steady decline in quality of life, and a reduction in life expectancy compared to pre-industrial times. This can easily be explained when you look at the explosion in chemical manufacturing, treatment based medication, and the food industry.

Also, this viewpoint overlooks an entire segment of US population, the Amish. I'd bet my left nut they live longer, and in better health than the average American today.

mell says

Gluten is not bad for you unless you are in the 1% who have celiac disease. Same goes for most other foods, if you are not allergic against them, they are mostly good for you in moderation.

That's very bad advise in an unqualified statement like this. What you mean to say is natural gluten is not harmful. But most wheat is GMO, not natural. It is the GMO wheat that causes the sensitivity, and can cause a reaction even to healthy gluten.

Tenpoundbass says

Until the Industrial revolution the average lifespan was mid 30's. You only made it past 50 if you were a well taken care of leader or from the ruling class.

There are plausible accounts from the ancient world of people living to 100.

I don't know how frequent it was, but I'm sure it happened.

NuttBoxer says

mell says

Gluten is not bad for you unless you are in the 1% who have celiac disease. Same goes for most other foods, if you are not allergic against them, they are mostly good for you in moderation.

That's very bad advise in an unqualified statement like this. What you mean to say is natural gluten is not harmful. But most wheat is GMO, not natural. It is the GMO wheat that causes the sensitivity, and can cause a reaction even to healthy gluten.

There is no GMO wheat that is commercially available.

mell says

Gluten is not bad for you unless you are in the 1% who have celiac disease. Same goes for most other foods, if you are not allergic against them, they are mostly good for you in moderation.

I beg to differ - while most people don't have Celiac disease, they do have allergies, autoimmune issues, and low-level chronic inflammation. Most of these are caused by foreign proteins and pathogens leaking from the gut into the body and bloodstream. Gluten causes leaky guts. Eliminate gluten -> eliminate leaky gut -> eliminate many of the previously mentioned conditions.

There was an interesting case of a woman who exhibited crazy tendencies and was sent to a mental hospital.
They gave her the usual treatment and meds, etc. which didn't seem to help her much.
Later she drank a shitload of something to "cleanse" her after hearing about some fad; I forget which substance she consumed.
Anyway, she ended up in the hospital and almost died.
Eventually somehow they found out that her craziness was actually caused by her food allergy or intolerance or celiac or something, I forget what.
After this she was normal and never acted crazy again.
What is fascinating to me is evidently there are other cases of where the conditions of your gut actually influence your brain.
I have a CNA friend who helped me after some surgery; she has an allergy to beef and pork evidently.
She actually went to the hospital once from it, so she eats chicken and fish.
I have not met anyone else with any food allergy.

I now believe it’s the Roundup in our food that gives us leaky gut, which allows proteins like gluten to enter our bloodstreams and cause us allergic reactions. It also correlates strongly with autism.

stereotomy says

mell says

Gluten is not bad for you unless you are in the 1% who have celiac disease. Same goes for most other foods, if you are not allergic against them, they are mostly good for you in moderation.

I beg to differ - while most people don't have Celiac disease, they do have allergies, autoimmune issues, and low-level chronic inflammation. Most of these are caused by foreign proteins and pathogens leaking from the gut into the body and bloodstream. Gluten causes leaky guts. Eliminate gluten -> eliminate leaky gut -> eliminate many of the previously mentioned conditions.

There is no proof for that. What's the pathway? People who have celiacs or not enough protease should avoid it, for the rest though it's even beneficial as it acts as a prebiotic. If you feel better without it, go GF. It's your body. Milk is highly beneficial for you yet some don't do well with dairy. It depends on the person.

Shaman says

I now believe it’s the Roundup in our food that gives us leaky gut, which allows proteins like gluten to enter our bloodstreams and cause us allergic reactions. It also correlates strongly with autism.

This could be it as molecular mimicry has shown to cause auto immune issues and more. Sadly they won't fund any studies to prove it.

What about lectins? There are plenty of people who jumped on that bandwagon and don't eat tomatoes and other healthy foods, just because of lectins. Personally I believe most auto immune diseases that are not hard core allergies come from either molecular mimicry or legit bacterial infections / imbalances where targeted antibiotics or bette phages could help. The immune system is not stupid. No proof, just evidence.

mell says

for the rest though it's even beneficial as it acts as a prebiotic.

No. Naturopaths are more and more telling people to avoid breads altogether, regardless of celiac or anything else. We pretty much cut wheat out of our home diet. Only have it when we eat out, and don't miss it, or see any negative health impacts whatsoever.

Some of you guys with the really bad health advise, mind sharing if your on any prescription medication, or how often you visit the doctor? I've haven't taken even over-the-counter medication in at least 15 years, and I've been to the doctor once for a checkup in the past 20 years. My family never has health insurance, because we don't need it.

Unless your lifestyle backs up your claims, I suggest you learn more before you say something that could harm someone else.

I assume I’m the one sharing the bad advice. I’m healthy weight, 47, and on no prescriptions. I see a doctor lately for an at work injury.

Shaman says

I assume I’m the one sharing the bad advice. I’m healthy weight, 47, and on no prescriptions. I see a doctor lately for an at work injury.

Pretty much the same here. You can commend yourself on a healthy lifestyle, but there's also a genetic component of course. Btw. here is what some of the longest living people on earth eat:

Monks on Mount Athos eat mainly vegetables, seasonal or frozen, due to fasting. Bread produced from whole meal wheat flour, has a leading role in the daily meals.

NuttBoxer says

Misc says

There is no GMO wheat that is commercially available.

So why the fuck is Monsanto suing farmers? I guess they patented God's wheat? This is the most mis-informed health statement I've ever read on patnet.

It seems you are confusing wheat with corn. There is no commercially available GMO wheat. Monsanto was suing farmers over corn. That was about a decade ago. Monsanto was bought out by Bayer (the German company) back in 2018. Hence, there are no current boogieman stories about the evil Monsanto.

https://wheatfoundation.org/wheat-resources/gmos/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20genetically%20modified,gluten%20relate%20to%20GMO%3F%E2%80%9D.

I am a little bit like Nuttboxer; I had judiciously avoided checkups for years.

In 2018 I paid a shitload for my Obamacare ($8,000+) so I decided to get checkups and etc.

"When was your last blood test?" "1994" The nurse was laughing "good for you".

My 1. blood pressure 2. cholesterol was "borderline" at which it's considered "high".

Maybe drinking 4 cups of coffee before my appointment affected my blood pressure?

Anyway, I am taking 1. atorovastatin 10mg 2. lisinopril 10mg

I found out I had arthritis a few years later and I take also 3. meloxicam which is amazing for me.

I will buy a blood pressure monitor and see if I actually need the lisinopril; a few or my blood pressure readings were only 104 systolic, kinda low.

You do not want high blood pressure; it fucks you up inside with no symptoms.

I'll be off 3. meloxicam when I get my hip fixed and no more arthritis.

clambo says

I will buy a blood pressure monitor and see if I actually need the lisinopril; a few or my blood pressure readings were only 104 systolic, kinda low.

104 systolic is quite low to be on medications for high bp, no? although I think they start the low range at 90. How high was it when they prescribed it?

clambo says

Maybe drinking 4 cups of coffee before my appointment affected my blood pressure?

Lab coat BP. I frankly don't care to know the numbers if I feel fine. Every time I go in my BP is through the roof because I have anxiety about bad news. They take it again 15 minutes later and it's significantly better. I've learned to deal with it by planning thoroughly before doing something.

I "should" probably be on an anti anxiety med, but I ain't doing it. Those few moments where it goes ape shit doesn't seem to do anything long term. I feel great. Aches and pains are creeping in as I had a really active childhood through college years and into early adulthood. Fortunately no back issues. Only bone I fractured was my calcaneus (heel) but my knees took a beat snowboarding in the late 90's doing dumb ass jumps before the perfectly manicured ramps of today (not doing that anymore).

I only take pills for occasions. A cruise I'll take dramamine. Or if I know I'll be riding in a vehicle anywhere in the back for a long duration. My heartburn has seemingly gone away with no diet change. So I stopped taking anything for that and I eat what I want.

Ultimately you need to let the body talk to you. If it's barking, don't run to a doctor. Figure out if something was different that you did. (*not medical advice). When I had my gall stones lodged I KNEW I had to go to a doctor. No more gut pain for 20 years after pulling that fucking gall bladder out.

I don't necessarily believe in preventative maintenance of the body via a doctors office. They just throw pills at it. It's mostly lifestyle causing the issues and the pills just help you keep living that lifestyle. Nothing actually get better you just don't feel it.

mell says

but there's also a genetic component of course.

This assumes God intentionally creates people to suffer. I don't know anything in scripture that backs this up. But if you're not religious, let me put it this way. If you eliminate all environmental toxins in food, air, and water, how much sickness would still exist? Babies just born out of the womb have detectable levels of plastics in their blood stream. Almost everything in your house has chemicals that are harmful for you(not talking about the food). Since we've changed our diet and lifestyle, our children don't have any of the issues you would call genetic. My friend who gave his kids all the vaccines has two autistic kids.

I have yet to come across a disease or condition that cannot be cured, or largely eradicated through natural means.

clambo says

I'll be off 3. meloxicam when I get my hip fixed and no more arthritis.

I was on Meloxicam for a torn knee ligament early this year. It took a couple days to kick in but it really stopped the pain. But it made me feel icky. It disconnected me from my body.

My GP said I was going to need surgery. My orthopedic surgeon let me try physical therapy before scheduling the surgery. I spent an hour plus a day doing knee strengthening exercises and at this point I am pain free and my knees, though sill old, are better than they have been in years.

There are some really good pain meds out there. I am happy they are available and even more happy I don't need them.

Misc says

It seems you are confusing wheat with corn. There is no commercially available GMO wheat. Monsanto was suing farmers over corn. That was about a decade ago. Monsanto was bought out by Bayer (the German company) back in 2018. Hence, there are no current boogieman stories about the evil Monsanto.

I will retract my previous statement, I was wrong, you were right. But I would like to point out that in 2013 GMO wheat was found in Oregon and the reason is unknown, despite the fact that it's not supposed to be commercially available. This is a common issue with GMO crops. The pollen does not respect any borders that man creates. I believe this is the reasoning behind the non-GMO labeling, some companies test to ensure their what is not modified vs the majority that do not.

Also, while this is categorized as breeding, it has fundamentally changed the structure of the structure of wheat, and that's what I really want to point out to the people saying all wheat is good for you, it's not.

https://www.greenamerica.org/gmos-industrial-agriculture/stop-ge-wheat/whats-wrong-modern-wheat

On the genetic debunking, my Dad and Grandfather both have/had high blood pressure. I can tell you with my Grampa it's probably because he was kind of an asshole, although never to me. My Dad definitely weight and diet related. Many of my relatives on both sides of my family had a history of alcoholism. You all know I drink, but it's never been an issue. I had really bad allergies as a kid, my daughters have none. I had chronic ear infections, they do not. My wife and oldest daughter both have Asthma, my younger daughters do not. We didn't really start with the health stuff until my oldest was 10, but she and my wife never use their inhalers anymore, haven't for years.

My oldest had high fevers and rashes until we switched the laundry detergent. Then she never had them again. Blaming genetics is convenient because then it's not our responsibility or fault. But with a little more knowledge I think we'd all learn it's a myth.

Patrick says

Try making a simple bread at home, and be surprised how different it is from anything you can buy from a store.

There's lots of youtube videos that demonstrate it. Some even demonstrate making break in a skillet on the stove, no oven needed. Some don't even need yeast.

One explanation I heard is that for thousands of years, 99% of the population was eating high fiber barley and rye bread.

Using mixtures of mostly wheat for bread for the masses is only the last century or so.

NuttBoxer says

My oldest had high fevers and rashes until we switched the laundry detergent. Then she never had them again. Blaming genetics is convenient because then it's not our responsibility or fault. But with a little more knowledge I think we'd all learn it's a myth.

I'm allergic to Nothing. I always used the cheapest Laundry Detergent. Gain, Store Brand, whatever.

Chick washed my clothes with Tide once and it was like Chicken Pox Strikes Back.

AmericanKulak says

NuttBoxer says

My oldest had high fevers and rashes until we switched the laundry detergent. Then she never had them again. Blaming genetics is convenient because then it's not our responsibility or fault. But with a little more knowledge I think we'd all learn it's a myth.

I'm allergic to Nothing. I always used the cheapest Laundry Detergent. Gain, Store Brand, whatever.

Chick washed my clothes with Tide once and it was like Chicken Pox Strikes Back.

Only reaction physically I have is to certain metals on my skin. Some food will make my stools nasty, but it doesn't physically bother me or I shit my pants. No headaches or stomach aches. There's the occasional I ate too much and need to find a toilet asap. System needs to release pressure. Bread, cheese, meat, seafood, etc. nothing bothers me.

There was one biggie though for a while. Heartburn. I'm convinced Tums and the pills cause MORE heartburn. Stopped any of that crap about 5-6 years ago. Occasionally have what is minor heartburn, but I can drink and eat whatever I want now since I just stopped popping stuff to "relieve" it. Part of that is I completely cut fast food out of any part of my diet. You need sodium at some level, but fast food is notorious for it.

clambo says

"When was your last blood test?" "1994" The nurse was laughing "good for you".

what do you think the nurse meant?

Patrick says

I'll have to disagree here - most of the people in the world have some form of gluten sensitivity. Practically everyone who eats massive amounts of wheat gluten experiences some sort of damage. It could be autoimmune disorders caused by gluten-induced leaky gut syndrome, or ulcerative colitis and small intestine damage which inhibits the ability of the body to absorb nutrients.

After I was in a severe car accident, I developed trauma-induced celiac disease. When you are severely injured, the body's healing ability is focused on repairing your injuries, and neglects its normal duties, such as repairing intestinal damage from eating massive amounts of gluten. Once your body has to triage its recuperative capacity, the damage from gluten to your intestines becomes obvious.

I developed a craving for red meat, and even though I ate more than a pound a day, over about a month, I lost almost 50 lbs. My body couldn't process the food I was eating because my intestinal villi were too damaged. It was only after I cut out all bread and gluten that I was finally able to regain weight and recover. Now that I'm fully healed, I can once again tolerate gluten, but I now know what it's really doing to me, so I minimize it.

Before my accident, I was developing arthritis in my hands. My mother suffers from it, and I also have an aunt who is full-blown celiac. These women grew up on a farm with no industrial chemicals, so it's more a product of the fact that Northern Europeans didn't go through "5000 years" of natural selection to winnow the population down to only those who could tolerate a lot of gluten containing grains in their diets. Here's a dirty little secret - "failure to thrive" in young infants is largely the result of excess gluten in their formula or gruel. This is the mechanism by which natural selection worked against gluten-sensitive populations in the Middle East "5000 years" ago - it killed them in childhood.

After I largely cut out gluten, my arthritis went away. 15 years later, and still no signs of arthritis.

Home-baked bread, without being massively nuked by added gluten, is much less damaging than industrial breads.

The point the picture demonstrates, that I believe is further echo'd by what you're saying, is GMO's are bad for you. Not wheat, not grains, but GMO's.

NuttBoxer says

The point the picture demonstrates, that I believe is further echo'd by what you're saying, is GMO's are bad for you. Not wheat, not grains, but GMO's.

I wouldn't blame it on the GMOs, I'd blame it on the highly processed wheat products most people eat...If people ate bread made with just natural ingredients, it would be a different story...but finding bread made naturally isn't easy...You have to make it yourself to be sure. It's even better to use a sourdough starter instead of YEAST. All that store bought sourdough is fake in my opinion.

WookieMan says

There was one biggie though for a while. Heartburn. I'm convinced Tums and the pills cause MORE heartburn. Stopped any of that crap about 5-6 years ago. Occasionally have what is minor heartburn, but I can drink and eat whatever I want now since I just stopped popping stuff to "relieve" it. Part of that is I completely cut fast food out of any part of my diet. You need sodium at some level, but fast food is notorious for it.

Yep! The only time I get heartburn is when I take my kids for pizza. And I noticed the same shit - tums makes it worse!

I slowly sip a beer or other highly carbonated beverage and it goes away, counter-intuitive but it works like a champ for me.

komputodo says

I wouldn't blame it on the GMOs, I'd blame it on the highly processed wheat products most people eat...If people ate bread made with just natural ingredients, it would be a different story...but finding bread made naturally isn't easy...You have to make it yourself to be sure. It's even better to use a sourdough starter instead of YEAST. All that store bought sourdough is fake in my opinion.

It's really awesome to make bread from complete scratch, with only the flour and a little salt being store brought. When the starter is on your windowsill catching the natural local yeasts.

Gives me a jolt of empowerment.

Another one was making my first beer from absolute scratch from all-grains. One day I'll get back into brewing, and after a few easier runs I'm going to make beer REALLY old-fashioned: No specific gravity measuring, no temperature measuring other than eyeball and hand, and see what I get.