patrick.net

rd6B says

as you see from above, TDS is very strong here

First this should be flagged under the new "rules" but that aside you were right it is a peer reviewed but still observational study I asked for a peer reviewed clinical study that is not what this is. This is far from a definitive answer to the question at hand which the OP and others make it out to be, though it does have value.

Here is the caveat at the end of study "

Findings of this observational study provide crucial data on experience with hydroxychloroquine therapy, providing necessary interim guidance for COVID-19 therapeutic practice. These findings do support the recent NIH guidelines (Antiviral Therapy, 2020), indicating a potential role for hydroxychloroquine in treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients without co-administration of azithromycin. However, our results should be interpreted with some caution and should not be applied to patients treated outside of hospital settings. Our results also require further confirmation in prospective, randomized controlled trials that rigorously evaluate the safety, and efficacy of hydroxychloroquine therapy for COVID-19 in hospitalized patients. Considered in the context of current studies on the use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19, our results suggest that hydroxychloroquine may have an important role to play in reducing COVID-19 mortaliy

rdm says

feel free to take it and good luck to you.

As long as you’re in a state without a NAZI Democrat Governor so that’s an option for you. In New York their NAZI Cuomo banned it and they had more deaths than the next three states combined. They put healthy people on ventilators and killed them to plump the numbers. But they used people of color for this purpose... so nobody important died... at least that’s how Democraps feel about it.

Patrick says

rd6B says

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Results
Of 2,541 patients, with a median total hospitalization time of 6 days (IQR: 4-10 days), median age was 64 years (IQR:53-76 years), 51% male, 56% African American...

Why so many blacks? They certainly seem to get this a lot more than anyone else.

Because raycism, duh.

rdm says

Our results also require further confirmation in prospective, randomized controlled trials that rigorously evaluate the safety

Why would we need another study to evaluate the safety of an old drug? Shouldn't the side effects be know to a T by now? I mean, the shit has been approved for use in US at least half a century ago, the safety or lack of thereof should y be well established by now.

Eric Holder says

Patrick says

rd6B says

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Results
Of 2,541 patients, with a median total hospitalization time of 6 days (IQR: 4-10 days), median age was 64 years (IQR:53-76 years), 51% male, 56% African American...

Why so many blacks? They certainly seem to get this a lot more than anyone else.

Because raycism, duh.

Wait. Black men make it to the age of 64???? This has to be an Onion piece. I thought they all died at 22 from cops or their fellow brothers because of oppression and all.

WookieMan says

Wait. Black men make it to the age of 64???? This has to be an Onion piece. I thought they all died at 22 from cops or their fellow brothers because of oppression and all.

The only ones who make it to 64 are these who were incarcerated for being black at the age of 14 and have been kept in a solitary cofinement for 50 years, duh.

rdm says

rd6B says

as you see from above, TDS is very strong here

First this should be flagged under the new "rules" but that aside you were right it is a peer reviewed but still observational study I asked for a peer reviewed clinical study that is not what this is. This is far from a definitive answer to the question at hand which the OP and others make it out to be, though it does have value.

Here is the caveat at the end of study "

Findings of this observational study provide crucial data on experience with hydroxychloroquine therapy, providing necessary interim guidance for COVID-19 therapeutic practice. These findings do support the recent NIH guidelines (Antiviral Therapy, 2020), indicating a potential role for hydroxychloroquine in treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients without co-administration of azithromycin. However, our results should be interpreted with some cau...

constant movement of goal posts

Eric Holder says

Why would we need another study to evaluate the safety of an old drug

The drug is approved for malaria and lupus but when giving to people that are very very sick, what might be a minor side effect in treating malaria can push someone over the edge. Also it is good CYA language.

rd6B says

constant movement of goal posts

Its called science. Not everything is black and white, works doesn't work. Good or bad Trumpian dualism.

This is apparently a decent observational study, it is not the double blind placebo clinical study that can be more definitive. Hey like I said if its enough for you go for it. It would not be my first choice if I got the virus.

rdm says

observational study I asked for a peer reviewed clinical study

Clinical studies can be divided into two broad categories: trials, in which the investigator intervenes to prevent or treat a disease, and observational studies, in which the investigator makes no intervention and patients are allocated treatment based on clinical decisions.

mell says

The latest studies all show that it's highly effective.

Actually it's the opposite. I doubt it's being used much at this point. At least not by competant doctors in the first world.

That's possibly even the reason the death rate hasn't spiked at all since the new cases did. Always sounded like a stab in the dark wishful thinking to me. And stupid considering so many people need the drug for other reasons. Fortunately most doctors aren't that stupid, but a lot of the public is. And if the patient insists their doctor use something with unknown efficacy (when the FDA says you can experiment with it) becasue the President is promoting it, the doctor will do it, unless he's certain it's a mistake.

https://www.biospace.com/article/large-study-suggests-malaria-drug-hydroxychloroquine-doesn-t-help-covid-19/

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/05/uk-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-it-doesnt-work-303275

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hydroxychloroquine-doesnt-help-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-new-research-finds-11591385885

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine

Patrick says

If you think it doesn't work just because Trump thinks it does, and you get Wuhan virus, feel free not to take it and good luck to you.

If you think it works just becasue Trump says so, and you get CV, good luck to you. (and for that matte RIP to all the dumb asses that died becasue of Trump promoting it when they might have used something more effective in the absence of his stupid advice).

That whole episode of Trump promoting a drug in a pandemic, with totally unknown efficacy, is just one more reason behind hoping we never have such a moronic President again. Not that his intentions weren't good. But he's so thoughtless and arrogant, just stupid.

mell says

How 25%-50% of Covid-19 deaths could have been avoided: HCQ

By not using HCQ ?

We'll never know. But since it does nothing more than placebo against CV, one would hope that without Trump promoting it, other better ideas might not have been crowded out in late match and early April by the HCQ TDS.

"The American College of Physicians says doctors should not treat COVID-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine outside the context of a clinical trial."

https://whyy.org/articles/dont-treat-covid-19-with-hydroxychloroquine-american-college-of-physicians-says/

But then after a couple months of the multiple large rigorous clinical trials (double blind etc.).

"NIH halts clinical trial of hydroxychloroquine Study shows treatment does no harm, but provides no benefit"

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine

rd6B says

So, the only reason why HCQ can not be efficient is because trump said it is efficient, and admitting ones own TDS is impossible. It is fucking hopeless and on par of creationist stubbornness in being anti-science just because

@rd6B I think you are right, TDS is exactly analogous to creationism.

At least I understand creationists' internal logic to some degree, and therefore can sympathize. They have put their hope of salvation from the pain of this world into the bible. If the bible is not literally true, maybe they are not actually going to heaven, and this is all there is. That's a pretty dark picture, especially if this life is not going all that well. So they have a profound gut-level motive to believe in creationism. This leads to the necessary mental gymnastics to re-attain equilibrium, and hope.

But for TDS, what is it exactly? Why do they see Trump as threat to themselves? What are the unspoken fears?

My guess at the moment is that they are afraid of the masses of people in "flyover country" who they know they have screwed over for decades by outsourcing their jobs and insourcing illegals. Or they are afraid for their own status as "superior" people who got an "education" at very expensive universities which entitles them to rule over the masses. Trump, as a populist, is a direct threat to the value of their elite education.

To debate on the level of facts is "fucking hopeless" as you say. It's not about facts, it's about fear and loathing of Trump as a representative of... what?

marcus says

Fortunately most doctors aren't that stupid,

I don't care about the drug being discussed in this thread. This comment is extremely naive though. You put way too much faith in educated people, doctors specifically. The assumption of being correct because of knowledge means dick. The most educated are the ones that usually fuck up the most because of their perceived superiority and knowledge. They're infallible. That's not who I want working on my physical body in most cases. Dead serious.

Trump derangement Syndrome is matched by the equally strong and opposite insane force called Trump Delusion Syndrome. You are actually well situated to gain insight in to what causes that.

When history looks back on this era, the question "Why did so many people have such a Problem with Trump ?" will not be nearly as big a question as:

1) How and why was he elected in the first place ?

2) What does it say about the state of America and the character of it's people that they not only elected him, but they didn't reject him either, as he embarrassed the majority of it's citizens on a daily basis ?

And conversely, I admit that some of the joy and hope I feel due to Trump's election is a not-quite-subconscious feeling of vindication after being dragged to HR or not hired for things I have said on my own forum, on my own time.

I used to be firmly on the left. It all seemed obvious to me from listening to NPR. Right-wingers must be idiots, easily manipulated, so dangerous, so violent, horrible people.

Then I was told "You can't say that" or will lose my job, or not get a new one in the Bay Area. And these were about points which are factual, and which I will repeat here once again out of defiance:

- Women are not inclined toward engineering nearly to the degree that men are, and this seems to be biological.
- Human races are more widely divergent than dog breeds, so if it is clear that dogs vary in temperament, human races should also.
- There is no evidence that being gay is inborn, but there is much evidence that it is learned and self-destructive behavior.
- Islam is by far the most violent religion, and that follows directly from the example of Mohammed himself.

So the good news is that leftist ideology does eventually attack and alienate all of its own. There is an end to the Reign of Terror in sight.

WookieMan says

The most educated are the ones that usually fuck up the most because of their perceived superiority and knowledge. They're infallible. That's not who I want working on my physical body in most cases. Dead serious.

@WookieMan You might really enjoy a lot of the writing of Nassim Taleb. One of his favorite phrases is "Intellectual Yet Idiot":

https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577

What we have been seeing worldwide, from India to the UK to the US, is the rebellion against the inner circle of no-skin-in-the-game policymaking “clerks” and journalists-insiders, that class of paternalistic semi-intellectual experts with some Ivy league, Oxford-Cambridge, or similar label-driven education who are telling the rest of us 1) what to do, 2) what to eat, 3) how to speak, 4) how to think… and 5) who to vote for.

But the problem is the one-eyed following the blind: these self-described members of the “intelligentsia” can’t find a coconut in Coconut Island, meaning they aren’t intelligent enough to define intelligence hence fall into circularities — but their main skill is capacity to pass exams written by people like them.

Patrick says

- Human races are more widely divergent than dog breeds, so if it is clear that dogs vary in temperament, human races should also.

No offense but such statements (from my pov) seem more emotional than anything else. I disagree with the first part, but also there is no logic to "should" of the second part. Possibly "could." But dog populations are bred over a relatively short period of time. Also dogs are bred with intention, and some breeds are woefully inbred.

In another way, your argument works against your belief. Dog breeding shows for example that temperament changes can easily be bred in to or out of dogs. E.g. the example of paranoid and aggressive foxes, bred in a few short generations to being docile and friendly. This suggests a mutability depending on cultural emphasis on the types of mates that are most desirable, matriarchy versus patriarchy and so on, that imply that through assimilation into a multicultural diverse society the differences if they don't disappear become irrelevant.. Even the differences withing racial groups which are obviously far far greater than differences between groups are mutable over time depending on culture.

And then finally, who cares ? If you are treating people as individuals, why obsess about group differences ? This is why to me, your point seems so racist.

marcus says

Trump derangement Syndrome is matched by the equally strong and opposite insane force called Trump Delusion Syndrome. You are actually well situated to gain insight in to what causes that.

When history looks back on this era, the question "Why did so many people have such a Problem with Trump ?" will not be nearly as big a question as:

1) How and why was he elected in the first place ?

2) What does it say about the state of America and the character of it's people that they not only elected him, but they didn't reject him either, as he embarrassed the majority of it's citizens on a daily basis ?

@marcus, I don't like him and did not vote for him. He behaves like a stereotypical Yankee asshole, who he undoubtedly is. But given choice between him and statue-toppling vandals, I will choose him every day.

rd6B says

But given choice between him and statue-toppling vandals, I will choose him every day.

Of course.

But if you make the leap to generalizing that democrats are statue toppling vandals, then you are identifying the entire left with some crazies on far left.

Remember, the left couldn't even nominate Bernie Sanders.

It will be interesting to see whether Biden can present an objective and sensible position on what the extreme left is doing.

It's interesting, the degree to which the noise on the far left, strengthens the right. I too find myself recoiling against the stupidity. For example, as an objective person, seeing BLM stupidity only makes me more respectful of and more interested in listening to conservative black voices. (by conservative - I don't mean necessarily republican).

marcus says

But if you make the leap to generalizing that democrats are statue toppling vandals, then you are identifying the entire left with some crazies on far left.

It's only natural taking into account that no prominent democrats voiced their opposition to vandalism. Silence is violence, remember?

marcus says

But if you make the leap to generalizing that democrats are statue toppling vandals, then you are identifying the entire left with some crazies on far left.

From my daily experience, that identity does seem to be valid.

I do not find Democrats objecting to statue toppling, or defunding the police, or even suspecting that BLM's 4-year cycle might have something to do with the election.

Among Democrats, I see only true believers in The Narrative, or those too intimidated by leftist violence to speak up.

But if you make the leap to generalizing that democrats are statue toppling vandals, then you are identifying the entire left with some crazies on far left.

Elected Dems seem to agree with the statue toppling, and only elected Dems can defund the police, as in Minneapolis and New York.

marcus says

Remember, the left couldn't even nominate Bernie Sanders.

Haha - the left probably DID nominate Bernie Sanders.

You have no way to validate the vote at all, but have been programmed since birth to believe that the US is really a dumbocracy - your guvernment skools said so!

So, let me get this straight. The "left" nominated a senile old man, that has said he enjoys having children jump on his lab, who said he's learned about roaches from black people, who was involved in blatantly obvious corruption in Ukraine, and looks to all the world to be a pedophile.

That's what the "left" nominated?

Oh, and he promises to change nothing, has no platform, speaks in completely empty platitudes. He was also an outspoken supporter of the Iraq War - you know, that war over non existent weapons of mass destruction EVERYBODY loved so fucking much that they elected a black man with a Muslim sounding name.

Here's a thought: he wasn't actually nominated...

Oh, but that's just crazy talk isn't it?? OF COURSE he was. How silly to think we are in a sham democratic system, and not a real one. We all want another fucking war right, and although it's impossible to scrounge up $20 billion dollars for a wall between Mexico and the US, it's entirely affordable to spend $2 billion a day on bombing a bunch of nations for which you have no fucking idea why the US is bombing those nations.

marcus says

It's interesting, the degree to which the noise on the far left, strengthens the right.

I think it helps the collective Right to a great degree. Many of my acquaintances have shifted their opinions to the right; many minority students are now telling that they will vote third party and not D after seeing that D's do not really condemn antifa (unless their mansions are threatened). We may see resurgence of Racist Right as well, caused by racists on the left (as in any action will cause counter-reaction to it overshooting reasonable boundaries).
marcus says

listening to conservative black voices. (by conservative - I don't mean necessarily republican).

I have started listening to them also, mostly libertarians because mainstream R's are not that great.

marcus says

If you are treating people as individuals, why obsess about group differences ?

exactly. if we start obsessing with group differences, we slide to level of BLM. Treat people like individuals, no matter who they are.

Patrick says

I do not find Democrats objecting to statue toppling, or defunding the police, or even suspecting that BLM's 4-year cycle might have something to do with the election.

Among Democrats, I see only true believers in The Narrative, or those too intimidated by leftist violence to speak up.

I'm a democrat. You heard me liking Jordan Peterson, and agreeing with his analysis of post modernism and stupid idnetity politics (on both sides).

I also posted a Coleman Hughes video here recently. I don't think I need to explicitly tell you that I don't want to see Thomas Jefferson statues overturned by whackos on the left, that is for you to know what I think about it.

richwicks says

Oh, and he promises to change nothing, has no platform, speaks in completely empty platitudes

I agree, he could benefit from some intensive courses in lying from Trump. Perhaps there are some master liars that could give him some one on one intensive tutoring.

Some of us prefer someone who lies way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way less, even if what they promise is far less compelling or exciting.

marcus says

richwicks says

Oh, and he promises to change nothing, has no platform, speaks in completely empty platitudes

I agree, he could benefit from some intensive courses in lying from Trump.

Trump? He sucks at it!

George W. Bush lied us into an entire fucking war! Remember when we couldn't wait for the final proof to come in the form of a mushroom cloud??

Or what about Obama? He convinced the nation that it needed to bomb Libya to "prevent a humanitarian crisis"!!! Then he left it in civil war with slavery markets! Oh man, that one was a whopper.

Now, tell me the biggest lie Trump has said. He sure sucks at starting a new war.

marcus says

Some of us prefer someone who lies way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way less, even if what they promise is far less compelling or exciting.

Like whom? You mean Biden?

www.youtube.com/embed/C57Mx-1y2GM

Yeah, that man is authentic! Look, just elect this:



You know you're just going to be electing a mouthpiece for the MIC. Just fucking admit it. Quit pretending you're electing a human being, and recognize you're electing a puppet.

Patrick says

Right-wingers must be idiots, easily manipulated, so dangerous, so violent, horrible people.

Saying that in or something close to it 2010 is very much like saying all liberals are statue toppling vandals now.

People that are not married to one side or the other can appreciate this. There are whackos on both sides in the wings of the distribution. Yes, it's true though that the left side of the center that does dominate so much of the (slightly more mainstream) media and academia needs to speak out against their crazies.

That was one of Coleman Hughes good observations in that video. That the left seems to miss that they are dominant and yet claiming oppression and victimhood.

I have to admit to some fear about the way that things evolve or don't evolve in this country anymore.

Where are the great leaders in America ?

richwicks says

recognize you're electing a puppet

Sadly that may be the case, and historically has been, including with Trump, even if in his case he didn't expect to win and didn't fully decide who all his puppet masters were until after he was elected.

There's absolutely no reason they shouldn't be combining this with Zinc in this study. It's been proven in the scientific literature that HCQ increases Zinc concentration and it's also proven that Zinc inhibits other coronaviruses ability to replicate. It's akin to going into battle with a jeep and body armor, but forgetting your machine gun.

marcus says

richwicks says

recognize you're electing a puppet

Sadly that may be the case, and historically has been, including with Trump, even if in his case he didn't expect to win and didn't fully decide who all his puppet masters were until after he was elected.

Will you give me a break?

Hillary Clinton made a deal in Uranium One. She received 145 million dollars from various Russian sources after the deal was completed as "donations" to the Clinton Foundation. Bill Clinton made a speech for a Russian bank and was paid $500,000 for that under 1 hour effort.

And you have the temerity to accuse Trump of collusion with Russia? How hypocritical can you get?

I know that the saying is "Accuse Your Enemy Of What You Are Doing, As You Are Doing It" - but sheesh - give it a rest.

And for the record, if Russia was controlling the United States, it couldn't be any worse than our MIC controlling it.

richwicks says

Hillary Clinton made a deal in Uranium One. She received 145 million dollars from various Russian sources after the deal was completed as "donations" to the Clinton Foundatio

Which she used to start up a pediphile ring operating out of pizza parler that Seth Rich used to frequent just before he was killed by Hillary for giving the Ukranians the password to the DNC server and they had it hijacked to the Ukraine on Hunter Biden's orders. Better believe it, as this Top Sekret info came straight from Devin Nunes cow.

rdm says

richwicks says

Hillary Clinton made a deal in Uranium One. She received 145 million dollars from various Russian sources after the deal was completed as "donations" to the Clinton Foundatio

Which she used to start up a pediphile ring operating out of pizza parler that Seth Rich used to frequent just before he was killed by Hillary for giving the Ukranians the password to the DNC server and they had it hijacked to the Ukraine on Hunter Biden's orders. Better believe it, as this Top Sekret info came straight from Devin Nunes cow.

Um, I'm doubtful of that.

First of all, I have implemented FAT32 and Binney is right, the data was copied to a FAT32 file system which IMPLIES her server wasn't hacked by the Russians. The modification dates on files on FAT32 are every 2 seconds. That showed up in the files.

However, they could have been copied to a remote server, then copied to a FAT32 file system there, then transferred.

So it isn't conclusive. Bill Binney isn't giving complete information.

But it seems likely that Seth Rich was the source:

www.youtube.com/embed/PV6ftkQA_Ew

I have no idea how you conclude he frequented the pizza parlor - and I consider that irrelevant even if he did. I like pizza myself, but merely actual pizza. I think it's largely a distraction.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-detroit-study/index.html


A team at Henry Ford Health System in Southeast Michigan said Thursday
its study of 2,541 hospitalized patients found that those given
hydroxychloroquine were much less likely to die.

Dr. Marcus Zervos, division head of infectious disease for Henry Ford
Health System, said 26% of those not given hydroxychloroquine died,
compared to 13% of those who got the drug.


"Our results do differ from some other studies," Zervos told a news
conference. "What we think was important in ours ... is that patients
were treated early. For hydroxychloroquine to have a benefit, it needs
to begin before the patients begin to suffer some of the severe immune
reactions that patients can have with Covid," he added.

"The World Health Organization (WHO) on Saturday said that it discontinued studies evaluating hydroxychloroquine and AbbVie's ABBV, -0.16% HIV drug Kaletra as potential treatments for COVID-19. The WHO has been conducting a multi-pronged clinical trial testing a handful of potential treatments in hospitalized COVID-19 patients since late March. "These interim trial results show that hydroxychloroquine and lopinavir/ritonavir produce little or no reduction in the mortality of hospitalized COVID-19 patients when compared to standard of care," the organization said in a news release. The WHO had previously halted the hydroxychloroquine arm over safety concerns, restarted it, and then stopped it again; however, there is mounting clinical evidence that hydroxychloroquine, a decades-old antimalarial, is not effective treatment for severely ill COVID-19 patients. The Food and Drug Administration on June 15 withdrew its emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, and the National Institutes of Health also stopped its own study of the drug."
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/who-formally-drops-hydroxychloroquine-hiv-drug-from-covid-19-drug-study-2020-07-06

WHO also said no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in a Jan 14th official tweet.

theoakman says

There's absolutely no reason they shouldn't be combining this with Zinc in this study. It's been proven in the scientific literature that HCQ increases Zinc concentration and it's also proven that Zinc inhibits other coronaviruses ability to replicate. It's akin to going into battle with a jeep and body armor, but forgetting your machine gun.

I've been screaming the same thing for ages.

My thesis was on membranes, the core specialty which meshes applied chemistry/chemistry engineering to the bio sciences.

My low tech undergrad work was using affinity ligands on polymer surfaces to assist in moving key ingredients to the other side. In other words, the basis for purifying drugs or in this case, getting something into the cell itself for medicinal purposes.

How come NO ONE gets it? If you have HCQ in the blood stream, you need it to transport something. Well, that something is the Zinc ion which is a viral inhibitor and only works if it's in the cell itself. Otherwise, you're hoping that the person has a steady diet of oysters.

But rdm already knows this (since I'm repeating myself) and is now, kowtowing to the political types at the NIH, which is all of them.