patrick.net

Asheville AKA the San Francisco of the south! Great city...

I feel the same way a lot of the time. I like it here, but is it really worth it? Luckily (or unluckily) for me, I have no job tying me here. I could probably get one, but I love blogging too much.

I ain't a buyer here.

I'd like to buy in Los Altos -- it's cheaper than moving back to Tokyo (well the land is, 3000' is an immense lot in Tokyo) -- but it's also a boring place. And the $1.5M+ entry price is pretty ridiculous, as is the $1000/mo property tax that incurs.

I list Bellingham as my location because that was what a previous version of the website asked -- "where do you want to buy" . . .

I'd like to think I'd be happy semi-retired up in Bellingham.

Back in 2002 I had my eye on property up in the Shaver Lake area. It's about an hour out of Fresno but pretty Sierra-y with all the pine and granite. Prices were cheap then -- $300k for a nice house in a small subdivision, but same places now are still $500K+ for some reason.

I had a friend bail out of the bay area and end up in Larkspur, CO. Kinda smart, it's got commutable access to two job markets, Denver and Colo Springs.

Home prices have been kicked in the teeth there since he bought . . . the median went from $350ish in 2002 up to $500K in 2006 but is back to $350ish now.

Community-wise, it's not much different from Shaver Lake, a bunch of mountain folk hiding out. Little less tree action, a little closer to civilization. . .

All in all I think I'm going to end up going back to Japan, or heading off to the UK, or Canada, but the latter is getting to be a crowded trade, and both places are just too goddamn north for my taste.

We have been thinking the same questions for 3-4 years. But we really like California, weather, diversity and a lot...
Hence, we start hunting for a house now;-)

Sounds like you're moving out of the BA either way...

There is no reason to do anything unless and until your wife is unhappy with the arrangement.
Putting off the decision will not hurt you in my opinion. Saving money and being able to move is not a bad thing in my mind.
I do not believe that house prices will rise very much and this means you are not going to "miss the boat". Others may argue this point with me.
I have friends who relocated to Austin and it's fun around there, the summers are HOT however. I have been there 4 times to visit and I had fun. The economy in Texas is healthy compared to California.
There are many places that have lots of attractive features. The weather and the nice views and interesting things make the Bay Area attractive. But, the place has been slowly getting populated by an underclass. This is a trend that I do not see decreasing in California, rather increasing. This is not good for the economy, budget or more to the point your TAXES.
I believe no one with any brains would have a California address during retirement unless they are as rich as God or Larry Ellison.
Sit tight and save up your dough is my opinion.

Your situation sounds exactly like mine, cheap rent and all (and tarnation, Patrick--I've been following your site since 2004 when you were a lone voice of sanity). I know I could buy at this point, now it's just a question of will: the numbers still go into a big, black negative hole with PITI and all. Also spending my potential retirement nut to pay for someone else's just makes me profoundly sick. So kind of a stalemate, but I suppose it's not the worst situation to be.

At this point the idea of moving to a place where you can have a little elbow room--whether at Trader Joe's or the freeway--does sound awfully appealing. But I'm actually ok with staying in the bay area a while yet and keeping things a little nebulous and liquid. Actually I think it's more or less the new "normal": the Gold Watch job barely exists now (just the Golden Parachute for the Top, accompanied by the Golden Shower for the rest). And jobs tend to be only as safe as the next round of downsizing/outsourcing. Who wants to anchor their boat in those waters? The skillful, the brave or the stupid (which leaves me right out).

So all in all we're just ahead of the curve!

Hi Edvard: Prices for "non-cookie cutter" SFHs in decent areas of Central Austin (good school district/close to downtown/not in a flood zone) are NOT going to be $150-200k. You could probably find a little granny shack far North that someone's tarted up with some bamboo flooring/Ikea cabinets, but even for that you're easily looking at 250-300 for about ~ 1000 sq ft and about 6K in property taxes. It depends on what your expectations are, to be sure, but in the above price range, you're looking at a glorified bro squat.

Also, keep in mind that property taxes in Austin are notoriously steep, thanks to TCAD's 10% maximum annual increase rule -- that's even if your property didn't actually rise in value. You can battle TCAD, of course, but it's a hoop you'll jump through ever year.

Finally, just about one out of every three Californians has had the same exact idea as you are presently entertaining; 'I could feel rich in Texas' - which has had a very perceptible impact on the market the past several years.

Oddly, I know a guy who just sold his place to a Californian and moved back to Asheville after twenty-five years in Austin, due in part to 120 days straight of 100+ degree weather the last couple of years.

AHB says

Oddly, I know a guy who just sold his place to a Californian and moved back to Asheville after twenty-five years in Austin, due in part to 120 days straight of 100+ degree weather the last couple of years.

Crap happens.

The Essence and Future of Texas vs. California

-------------------------------------------------

Texas Instruments Inc., seeking to grow its semiconductor chip business by acquisition, plans to buy Santa Clara, Calif.-based National Semiconductor Corp. for $6.5 billion.

Dallas-based TI and National Semiconductor each make chips used in consumer electronics — including cellphones and tablet computers — and in industrial equipment

We (family of four) moved from SV to upstate NY 6 years ago - it has turned out to be a great decision. Housing is a factor of 10 cheaper; we only took a 15% income hit (SV tech jobs don't really pay that well, considering the cost of living); we save 50% of our take home; we don't have to deal with traffic; we take the kids skiing every weekend of winter; and if we want to go to a city NYC, Boston, and Montreal are reasonable drive. I miss the weather and SF but overall we are happier. Go for it.

edvard2 says

landlord doesn’t raise the rent.

Not that common but I know two people here in OC like you. Rent is around $600 for years with no increase. They are still renting rather buying, why not?

I think it's a tough call in your situation...cheap rent, good income, sounds like jobs you love. What I don't get are the people I see when commuting against traffic, sitting in their cars for an hour or more each way, so they can live in Danville or someplace similar and work in sv or sf, really? Is the bay area that great?

I don't think so. I don't have the option of moving because my job is not as easily transferable from state to state, but if I could, I would in a heartbeat. For now, it's save hard, retire early and move the f out of this overcrowded "utopia."

You'll always be able to buy a house later, a nice bay area job though isn't guaranteed anywhere else. And now you are making really good money and saving. You have a lot going for you.

Of course if you are just sick of that place and want to move on with your life to pursue other goals thats a different case. If your goal is to make money and save than stay put, you really have a lot going for you there.

I'm a business owner out in Reseda and I probably make a lot less money than you do out in Bay Area working for someone. Don't give up a good think, grass is really not greener out in other places.

Wow. Thanks for the great feedback thus far. Sounds like I'm not the only one with this type of quandary. I think for me what happened is that I spent years being broke. Getting $7 an hour for a few years does that to you. It took me a few years to gradually crawl up the ladder and I remember thinking that I would save "X" amount of dollars for a new car.

Once I surpassed that amount I decided that since it seemed like a waste to buy a new car. Thus I kept saving. That was back in the mid 2003. So I started saving for a house. But by the time I started getting to a point that I thought we could start looking the housing bubble hit. I held off because I thought the bubble pricing was ridiculous. I figured it would crash.

Fast-forward four years and the bubble popped. I thought that prices would come back to somewhat reasonable levels. 5 years after the crash I am somewhat disappointed to find that prices have not fallen to levels I personally find acceptable. I believe that is the crux of the problem: For all practical purposes the Bay Area is still in a bubble and prices are at levels that would negatively impact our financial situation. Its not that we couldn't do like everyone else and just buy and have a big chunk of our finances tied to a house. But we're not willing to do that. Especially not with the way the economy works around here these days. I've been through numerous jobs in the past 5-6 years. The work environment is anything but stable. I have never counted on a job to facilitate future purchases. Whatever I buy has to be in my pocket at that moment. Call me old fashioned. After experiencing what it was like to be dirt-poor and then have good savings makes me really resistant to the idea of wasting it on a house.

All that time I have been thinking of relocating. Granted the Bay Area is lovely. But as having grown up in the sticks- in hot and humid weather- I feel I'm more flexible with what is acceptable. I realize Austin gets hot as hell. Truth be known most other places have crappy weather- hence why California is so costly because it has a Mediterranean climate. I'm willing to accept that. As far as Austin, well we did see houses in lower South Austin for 150k or less. Its just that they were zoned for a different school. We have no kids nor want them. The pricey areas in all cities tend to be around good schools- which we do not care about. We would intentionally choose areas that were not as appetizing for families with kids. Same would go for any other areas we would consider.

Anyway... I guess I'm just "typing out loud". Its likely we'll just keep plodding along, keep working, keep saving, and someday it will feel right to just pack up and move. In the meantime I guess it doesn't hurt to enjoy California.

spend one winter in any other place in America and then ask "is it worth it to live in The Bay Area."

for that matter spend one summer also.

Does anyone in CA remember what real humidity feels like?
don't forget the Mosquitoes.

edvard2 says

As far as Austin, well we did see houses in lower South Austin for 150k or less. Its just that they were zoned for a different school. We have no kids nor want them. The pricey areas in all cities tend to be around good schools- which we do not care about. We would intentionally choose areas that were not as appetizing for families with kids. Same would go for any other areas we would consider.

A friend of our family moved out to Austin a few years back, owns a huge house there for around 180, pays no state income tax since TX doesn't charge any. Weather is not as good as in CA, gets very humid in the summer, but jobs are there. It's a fun little techie college town.

You can always visit the place and see how you like it there. It never hurts to look.

We pulled out of CA in the mid-90s, returned after 3 years. On paper, our move out was brilliant; but living in another State was not the daily living experience we enjoyed in CA. The weather, culture, diversity of people and areas...too much lost. It felt like dropping out of a top university and transferring into a community college - yes, it was alot cheaper and easier, but cheaper and easier comes with a price.

When I moved to LA from Texas 10 years ago I loved it and couldn't understand why everyone was always complaining. Now I understand, it is very hard to get ahead here b-c of the cost of living and taxes (which are only going to go up) I am biding my time renting until my kids finish high school then my husband and I are moving somewhere more affordable and with less hassle probably Tennessee or maybe Washington state. California reminds me of a beautiful, spoiled girlfriend lovely to look at and fun to be with but ultimately too much trouble.

BackToCA says

cheaper and easier comes with a price.

No offence but you(and me) are living CA dream at a heavy price too. One can only imagine how things will be once I retire. Health care cost,SS etc. will be on a higher agenda then house I'll be living in. One thing I foresee is that hanging out here with a property may help at that stage of life to get profit out of it to may fund all other retirement costs by moving in a low cost state, but I may be wrong.

BackToCA says

We pulled out of CA in the mid-90s, returned after 3 years. On paper, our move out was brilliant; but living in another State was not the daily living experience we enjoyed in CA. The weather, culture, diversity of people and areas…too much lost. It felt like dropping out of a top university and transferring into a community college - yes, it was alot cheaper and easier, but cheaper and easier comes with a price.

Are you from California originally? I only say this because I seem to hear a lot of this sort of comparison when it comes to California and " Everywhere else"- and particularly from Californians.

Sure- California has a lot of unique and interesting things. But in my opinion its in many ways just like every other state in that it has certain things that make it unique as a state. But the same can be said for those other states too. There are many aspects of NC that are lacking in California. Namely in that people seem generally more pleasant and laid-back in NC ( Unless we're talking heavily transplanted Raleigh-Durham) You're also not going to get the same type of food, music, culture, and art as you would in NC.

Weather... well I will say its nice to have 4-5 months of non-stop sun. On the other hand it never really gets... warm in the summer either. It always annoys the hell out of me that in June or July you'll have days that sometimes dip down into the 50's or 60's. Personally I like my summers to be HOT because in my mind that's how summers aught to be. Hot weather, cold beer, swimming at the lake, and sitting on the porch watching fireflys. That's what summer is all about.

I also hear a lot about diversity. Sure- there are many people from many different parts of the globe here. That's a good thing and I've learned a lot from talking with others from other countries. But its also been my observation that the Bay Area has a fairly noticeable socioeconomic segregation: The rich seem to always live up in the hills while the poor live in the lower parts. There is a very distinct disparity. Lots and lots of folks driving Bentleys, Ferraris, Porsches,and Bimmers. I've never lived somewhere that had such outward displays of wealth. Back home you'd be lucky to see someone driving a brand-new Honda Accord let alone a $100,000 luxury sedan. To be honest, the large amount of gentrification is what bothers me perhaps more than any other thing here. I can't put my finger on it but it feels sort of stuffy and phony. After living here for 12 years and talking to a lot of my older neighbors, the Bay Area used to be more of a working class city. From the general opinion I get from the old folks the area got "ruined" about 30 years ago and its now turned into yuppieville. Heck- even the friends I have who live out in rural California think of the Bay Area as a totally different state mainly because of it's gentrified status.

Then again- different strokes for different folks. I can understand the addictive allure of the Bay Area and California. But I don't feel that this is an area I can simply not live without either. Give me a plot of land and a workshop to tinker around in and I'm a happy man.

We moved from SV to Concord, in 2001, and bought a house. Housing is affordable, and overall there are a lot of really nice areas in the East Bay. At first I really missed SV weather. It gets hot in Concord in the summer but the evenings are balmy and nice with warm breezes. We recently visited Texas. We are intrigued by it. But I doubt if could stand the humidity and extreme heat. Still, I'm not happy with California taxes and politics.

My take: you might as well stay here and sock away enough money to retire somewhere else - how many years would that take you?
Then you could move to *wherever* you wanted and work part-time at *whatever* you wanted. That's heaven on earth, right? It's like you've gamed the system and are winning.

We live in the East Bay and commute to SV. The East Bay is nice but it seems that anything that is remotely within commutable distance to SV is still too expensive- expensive to me meaning $450,000-$500,000. Pleasanton and Livermore have come to mind... but these are simply too far for any kind of sane commute. That's the problem with the Bay Area: Anything close to the major job centers is still prohibitive. The freeway and public transit system are such that commuting too the immediate Bay Area is a nightmare. Thus you're either stuck with a god-awful commute or expensive housing.

Arnold Layne says

My take: you might as well stay here and sock away enough money to retire somewhere else - how many years would that take you?
Then you could move to *wherever* you wanted and work part-time at *whatever* you wanted. That’s heaven on earth, right? It’s like you’ve gamed the system and are winning.

I'm guessing probably another 10 years. Maybe less. Depends if we can continue renting the same house for cheap. Sooner if we chose to live out in the sticks.

Another thing I worry about is that we're obviously not the only people doing this. Last I read California, NY, MA, and all the other bubble states have been losing tons of people for years. Whenever I visit NC its like there's a whole new chunk of town that didn't exist a few years ago. Austin to me felt like it could turn into the Bay Area any day. So its not like these places will likely stay as affordable in the coming years simply because they're attracting so many people- particularly young professionals. So therein lies the dilemma that if we wait for too long- who knows? There might exist the same problem in those states as well.

thank god someone else is pondering the same issue. Of all our colleagues and friends here, the ones who love living here (and are willing to deal with the financial stress) are digging in like ticks. The others have all moved away. Now we find ourselves in a similar quandary. Do we stay or go? I have a fantastic job at an amazing company. I have job security and my career is taking off. Financially we are doing well - low debt, good savings, own property elsewhere for which we were able to pay cash. That said, my wife and I simply are not happy here. It does not emotionally fulfill or reward us and like any relationship, if it's not fulfilling your needs, even if it's a pleasant and tolerable relationship, then it is not necessarily healthy. We have decided to leave. We simply haven't decided when. Where? Who knows - I'm limited by work. But having just reasoned out our decision has been very freeing for us.

What we realized is that we spend every day trying to be thankful for what we have but find ourselves asking the questions of why we pay so much to live here and should we stay. And we realized that if we're asking those question every day, then we should be somewhere where we aren't asking those questions.

(we don't have kids - if we had kids and they were in school, had friends, that would completely alter any decision making - it would be what's best for them, ie staying).

Oakland is hit or miss. The decent areas are pricey. About the same as you'd find everywhere else in the Bay Area.

Katy Perry says

spend one winter in any other place in America and then ask “is it worth it to live in The Bay Area.”
for that matter spend one summer also.

I have lived in Taiwan, England, California (Daly city, walnut creek, san jose, san diego, san francisco, rockridge, alameda), New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, and spent considerable amounts of time traveling in southeast asia.

What I will say is until you live somewhere else for a year or more, you have no idea 1) how bad heat and humidity really is and 2) how well your body adapts to it.

I remember riding a school bus in tallahassee and passing bank signs with temp readings of 120+. With full on humidity, did it suck? yeah, was it that bad after awhile? No, not really.

I love love love chicago, are the winters bad and the summers bad? Sure, it's got seasons, some people actually enjoy that. If you lived in a downtown high-rise and you looked down over downtown chicago and the lake as snow is falling beneath you, it's actually pretty bad-ass.

I grew up in Walnut Creek and before grad school thought that SF was the only place anybody with any brains would want to live. Now that I have lived elsewhere, I've only realized how naive and sheltered I was. Most people in California need to get their heads out their asses and realize that there are some amazing places out there.

oakland is perfect if you're rich, have 3 or more kids in a triple wide stroller and like to walk around as if you own the sidewalk, then rockridge is perfect.

If you're middle/upper middle class and actually want some culture, oakland is great but very sketchy at the same time. Good for singles, not good for families that aren't trust fund babies.

After 15 years in the Bay area my partner and I moved to Austin, TX last year after my company laid me off. We sold our home, said good-bye to long time friends and moved in search of a less expensive life. I grew up in TX and graduated from UT Austin so it's great to be closer to family again.

However Austin is not the promised land. We looked at dozens of homes in the $200-250K range and they reminded me of fixer homes I lived in as a college student. Finally we found a place with some acreage about 15 minutes outside central Austin. Now we have our garden where we grow our own food, have chickens and are doing what we can to be self sustainable. Life is good.

And although there are lots of jobs here there is tons of competition. A job paying job in Austin is about $15 an hour. Many are contract only and only for a few months with no benefits. I have so much experience and certifications that I find I'm either 'too qualified' for most jobs that are offered or employers don't want to hire anyone for the long term. I know plenty of college grads who can't find long term employment in Austin. So I'm an entrepreneur finding lots of creative ways to supplement my savings. Prices are much more reasonable here but insurance, utilities and taxes are a lot higher than in CA. In fact taxes are our biggest expense since we moved here and they go up every year. My partner with a Masters degree and years of experience landed a job paying less than half what he was making in San Francisco.

I say if you have a job that you like then stay with it. Continue saving because you never know when your situation will change through no fault of your own. I love Austin but I would still be in northern CA if I could afford it.

ih8alameda2 says

What I will say is until you live somewhere else for a year or more, you have no idea 1) how bad heat and humidity really is and 2) how well your body adapts to it.

I did. First 21 years of my life was spent in NC. Yes- it gets hot and humid. I didn't travel that much beyond the state's border thus I never really thought about the weather. It is what it is. Summers to me meant HOT humid. I will say that I did live in New England for a year and the winters there SUCKED. So basically I'm ok with hot and humid weather. Not frigid weather though.

What always comes to mind is just how different my friends and family live back home. My parents live probably a good 30 minutes from a minor city. They live in a fairly nice house on around 12 acres. They have a nice workshop, a greenhouse, pool, and 2 newer cars. Its 10 minutes from a huge lake where I used to swim in the summer. Neither have super well-paying jobs. They have no debt. They make around 50% less combined than I do.

Their property is valued at $170,000 total. That same property anywhere near where we live would cost several million- if not close to 10 million. Sure- they don't get all the excitement from living in a big city. But they travel and have been all over Europe, Asia, and the Mediterranean. Its not like I am jealous. Its just that its amazing to me that they have ordinary unglamorous jobs and yet live a lifestyle that would require a millionaire's salary in the Bay Area. Its a grossly drastic difference. Hence I am always asking the question of what it would have been like had I stayed. Chances are I would have never thought about it. But after living here in the Bay Area it makes one have perspective.

Finally a good thread. Edvard, there are indeed a lot of us like you. I go back and forth on the same thoughts, often. My basic plan: retire back east near family and old friends. The issue with that for me is, time passes and you are far away, and those familial and fraternal connections get frayed or decrease anyway. Will everyone still be around by the time I choose to retire (or cash in)?

The whole debating weather and pluses and minuses (Bay area is soooo great v. the bay are is not all it's cracked up to be) is a non-issue for me. Eventually, I expect to move "home".

One thing I'm not sure if you've considered (haven't read every word of this thread) - buy your retirement house now, or in the next year or so while the places you are targeting remain down. I am certainly not one to believe there will be a "huge increase" or that the previous peaks are coming back any time soon - but I do think buying low is a good idea, and most of the U.S. is generally a lot lower now. Maybe you could buy in a place you have loved ones and use it as a vacation home (holiday trips, etc.). Maybe you could buy in a place you want to be when you get old and rent it out in the meantime (even if you don't completely "make money" on the rents as an investment).

Do you have "things to accomplish" still that require you stay where you are for a while? Are you really ready to cash in your chips and "go home". That seems like the question. For me, it's just a matter of when - although the longer I stay the more entrenched life gets.

And yep. The bay area is a nice place to visit, and with the cheaper lifestyle other places, you can visit whenever you want.

A few years ago I was in a gorgeous little New England town for a year. The seasons were all different, and the only bummer was the transition between fall and winter. Snow makes any place beautiful in my opinion. This of course was an exceptional case, since the town was prosperous. I would live there again no problem. My old friend who lives in New Hampshire (no income tax, no sales tax!) had a solution to the winter cold and blues: go to a warm place for a month each year. After Christmas, this breaks up the bitter cold and recharges her batteries. Winter is very tolerable then.
I think a pretty place with seasons and lots of sun is Colorado, but I have only one friend who moved out there.
Returning to California from my hiatus I got the impression that things here have changed since I arrived in 82 from Mexico. I lived in a touristic area for a couple of years.
It is the age-old question of where to live, how to make changes, how to adapt to new places.

new to Austin says

And although there are lots of jobs here there is tons of competition. A job paying job in Austin is about $15 an hour. Many are contract only and only for a few months with no benefits. I have so much experience and certifications that I find I’m either ‘too qualified’ for most jobs that are offered or employers don’t want to hire anyone for the long term.

I experienced this same exact thing: For years I'd read about the fantastic , growing, fabulous tech industry in Austin. The city seems to always make the top of the list of everything: The BEST place to work, the BEST place to live, the most affordable housing, etc etc etc. That and its routinely advertised as this cool, hip, liberal, artsy-fartsy city in the middle of TX. We visited 2 years ago. Its nice. Its definitely like a "Little SF" with hot weather. But... I lost my job a few years back and for the heck of it applied to numerous jobs in Austin. Keep in mind I am well-qualified, seasoned, and have worked for a wide variety of different companies. I got like ZERO responses. At first I thought maybe it was because they saw I lived in Cali. I removed that info from my resume. That made little difference. From what few companies I heard back from most were super-entry level jobs paying 50% or more less than my previous salary. As you mentioned, many were temporary contract jobs. I even had a few headhunters. One of the headhunters told me the competition for jobs was very competitive and some jobs would get 150 resumes within a day. I almost landed a job at a company that was in the exact same biz I had come from- which is highly specialized. The pay was pitiful- as in $30k. But I went for it anyway. I did not make the cut. Bottom line: Austin sounds great, but you had better bring lots of money because the job situation there sounds anything but good. This came as a shock to me after hearing how grrreat! Austin was supposed to be.

pkowen says

One thing I’m not sure if you’ve considered (haven’t read every word of this thread) - buy your retirement house now, or in the next year or so while the places you are targeting remain down.

I'm not really wild about that notion. That means suddenly becoming a landlord across the country. We're also fairly peculiar about where we live, what type of neighborhoods there are, and so on. basically things you won't know until you rent in an area for at least a year. It took me years to get accustomed to the Bay Area. I imagine it will be the same elsewhere.

The Bay Area can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be. I chose to not work in SV and restrict my jobs to SF/Oakland/WC/Concord and live in West Contra Costa County. You can buy a house in this area from 200-400k easy - 200k if you live small, 400k for 1800sf++ newer home in a nicer area. I am close to everything, and personally love being within 30 minutes to SF, 30 minutes to Napa and an easy escape to the Sierras or to Sonoma/Mendocino.

I was offered several jobs in other states, but both my husband and I would have had to take 10%+ pay cuts, and with the way we chose to live here housing with property taxes would have been MORE expensive in many places.

We have dozens of friends that live comfortably in lovely homes in lovely neighborhoods on working and middle class salaries. We have active lifestyles and enjoy all the things the Bay Area has to offer including owning a horse, boating most weekends, and enjoying the city and Napa Valley. But, if you require a big, fancy house in an "exclusive" neighborhood, yep it's expensive.

Personally, I enjoy the Bay Area and Northern California for everything it offers me outside my house.

Austin is a very small city (500k?) with a large college. Companies like to locate there for CHEAP COLLEGE LABOR and cheap rent.

If you work in IT you will find all pay rates severely depressed because the college and post college students ALL want to live/work in hip cool austin (and its cheap!) - so wages are depressed big time.

IMO it only makes sense if you are a SR level and can get top rate salary in Austin - thus you are 'rich' in TX. 30k a year in TX is probably = 50k in CA so its poor.

Quality of life issues are intangible. I suppose for the most $ you should work in Manhattan for highest pay rate AND live with 10 roomates in a box and save maximum $. (this sounds awful)

edvard2 says

I’m not really wild about that notion. That means suddenly becoming a landlord across the country.

Yeah, I know what you mean. If I were to do it, it would be back in a place I already lived for 10+ years, where I know the market very, very well, and where I would use a management company. Or, I would just buy my 'vacation/retirement' house and not rent it out at all, just use it for a few weeks here and there and "have it". That's the issue - the carrying costs are not really worth it for that, even for a $200k or less house, and I'll probably just stay flexible and buy when (and where) I do retire. I don't think housing is going to become 'out of reach' in 20 years. The only people who think that are those bulls who are already invested and see their own well-being tied to that happening.

Tude says

The Bay Area can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be. I chose to not work in SV and restrict my jobs to SF/Oakland/WC/Concord and live in West Contra Costa County. You can buy a house in this area from 200-400k easy - 200k if you live small, 400k for 1800sf++ newer home in a nicer area.

Where are you finding 200k homes in the Bay Area? Wern't you the person who put an offer on a house for 260k only to be outbid by an all-cash investor? I have to see anything in that price range that has a reasonable commute to SV or SF.

edvard2 says

Even post-bust it still appears that a halfway decent house is still hovering around $450,000-$500,000. Speculators seem to be ensuring that anything reasonable is churned into “investments”. Things don’t seem to be improving here. Its still an expensive place to live. It gets old after awhile.

It's not just housing either. I have similar thoughts to you, edvard2, and I feel it stems from one thing -- the "California Dream" of the Baby Boomer generation is no longer here. The Baby Boomer generation got everything they could want -- it was cheaper to live here, college was dirt cheap, the schools were better than good and had amazing services, Prop 13 passed at the right time for them, etc. And that is true even for many people with working class jobs. That generation has left California worse than they found it.

Now, we have overcrowded schools, overcrowded jails, budgets that can't be balanced without drastic cuts, rising college tuition and massive student loans, astronomical housing prices (that are made worse by Prop 13), raised and rising taxes, and other changes that are making this a poorer state. Meanwhile, the Boomers are still reaping the benefits of things like high salaries and pensions in government jobs and high home prices when they sell (even in places where prices have dropped) after buying at rock bottom. The younger generations are worse off.

Silicon Valley wouldn't have existed without the California Dream of yore, but I feel the good times have passed us by.

I'm a 5th generation northern California native. For decades I knew I could never afford to retire in California so I've been considering the move for a long time. At the peak of the boom - May 2006 - I sold my San Jose crapshack for almost $700K and moved to Boise. Once I got here I discovered I had enough money with the local COL to just retire at age 52.

It's hard to determine whether a person would be happy in SW Idaho. I'm a libertarian-conservative which means I fit in with Idaho culture just fine. If you are a liberal, or a bible-thumping social conservative, stay away from Idaho. The state itself is basically another California without a seacoast: deserts, mountains, river, lakes, and agricultural land. No seacoast but only 1.5 million people to consider in the balance.

My advice is to get out a map of the 50 states and think about living in each one. You may find it's easier to cross off all the places you couldn't stand and then consider what's left.

DennisN says

The state itself is basically another California without a seacoast: deserts, mountains, river, lakes, and agricultural land.

From what I understand, even the skiing there is quite good. There are even some tech jobs there besides Micron/Crucial/Lexar -- I remember getting my RAM from Crucial Technology shipped from Meridian (and being slightly annoyed because it took longer to get it via UPS).