patrick.net

Solution !

State Lotto like California.. eat up billions of dollars for education over decades
and then come back say we need more for education!

"The Paddle"

It's why all our moms and dads were members of the Mensa society compared to us, and our offspring.
The thought of another ass beating was enough to keep them focused. If for no other reason, so they could hurry up and grow up and get a good job and move away from the constant ass beatings.

state says

what is your solution raymerica

Gradually dismantle the disaster that is the public school system by encouraging (via vouchers, etc.) privatization which would allow the free market system to meet the needs of those that want their children to be properly educated. The federal government has no business whatsoever in the education of our children, therefore, close down the Federal Department of Education along with the highly fraudulent "No Child Left Behind" program, etc. Does that answer your question?

shrekgrinch says

That department was only created by Carter as a sop to the teacher’s unions in the first place.

Ronald Reagan said at the end of his 2nd. term his biggest regret was not closing down the Department of Education.

If one has to earn living doing drugs and robbing why learn readin and writin?

bubblesitter says

If one has to earn living doing drugs and robbing why learn readin and writin?

So you can learn how to read the charges against you when you get arrested.

But seriously, the problem with Detroit is the attitude of the people. I know it's not PC to say it, but just go drive around, and likely as not you'll find some young black guy, or several, who insist on standing in the street in front of your car just to piss you off. Massive chip-on-shoulder problem. You want live anywhere near them?

Thomas Sowell, the black Republican economist, is often wrong, but I think he traced the origins of that bad attitude correctly back to the redneck white attitudes of their former owners:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Liberals-Thomas-Sowell/dp/1594030863

RayAmerica says

shrekgrinch says

That department was only created by Carter as a sop to the teacher’s unions in the first place.

Ronald Reagan said at the end of his 2nd. term his biggest regret was not closing down the Department of Education.

Maybe the next president can take on this huge massive government fraud they call education. It certainly won't be Obama.

RayAmerica says

Gradually dismantle the disaster that is the public school system

Public school systems work great in OTHER countries, why do you think it is that ours is such a disaster?... Liberal minded people exist in those other countries, presumably driving those successful education systems, so you can't blame it on that... what do you think the problem here is?

kentm says

Public school systems work great in OTHER countries

Other countries do not have the same public system we do. American public education is it's own failed/failing breed.

ChrisLA says

Other countries do not have the same public system we do. American public education is it’s own failed/failing breed.

Very rigorous consideration of Kent's question. You sound like Troy (kidding).

Maybe we should try to learn from what other countries are doing for public education, instead of assuming that somehow we can do what has not been done successfully anywhere. But that wouldn't square with right wing dogma.

If we take in to consideration the cost of welfare and prisons, we might find that in the long run, spending significantly more on education makes sense. Maybe the puppet masters have already decided that this is true, and that therefore education needs to be privatized before we up what we spend on it big time. One day education can be like health care. We need to get more fingers in the pie.

marcus says

we might find that in the long run, spending significantly more on education makes sense.

Thanks for your unbiased, union belonging, public teacher input. The public school system in D.C. spends more per student than any other system in the country, and yet, they have one of the worst HS graduation rates. Throwing more money into an failed system is not the answer and big spending districts like D.C. proves it.

marcus says

Maybe we should try to learn from what other countries are doing for public education, instead of assuming that somehow we can do what has not been done successfully anywhere. But that wouldn’t square with right wing dogma

I'm not opposed to change, however the way our system is, there is permanent pushback by the system itself against any kind of change. The only thing I hear from those in the leadership is same old thing, asking for more money, which usually results in most of it staying at the top and only tiny crumbs trickling down to the education itself. The system is corrupt to the core.

I have tried to tell you before,, we are in a constant and relatively extreme state of change at my school. Reform and change is almost always happening. If and when we have been complacent, it has been because of how well our school is doing.

Your opinions are based on what?

ChrisLA says

The system is corrupt to the core.

Did anyone ever explain to you that the truth isn't something you just make up, because it fits the conclusions you want to reach.

marcus says

I have tried to tell you before,, we are in a constant and relatively extreme state of change at my school. Reform and change is almost always happening. If and when we have been complacent, it has been because of how well our school is doing.

Your opinions are based on what?

If you people were so great at doing the right thing we wouldn't have an education system that is a total joke. All I hear every year from the CTA is begging for more money which they will gladly waste all around as usual. Money has been thrown at you people for years, and nothing good came out of it.

As a parent I see schools as some dinosaur union complacent system where no one gives a damn about anything because there is no reason to care. You people don't have to out-compete, to out-perform or out-educate. And there is this entitlement mentality of "I'll sit on my ass for a few years with tenure and taxpayers owe me for a lifetime."

It really is time for unions to go and education to be changed into a voucher based system so that schools start competing for students.

>It really is time for unions to go and education to be changed into a voucher based system so that schools start competing for students.

Would the schools be able to refuse students under such a system?

ChrisLA says

It really is time for unions to go and education to be changed into a voucher based system so that schools start competing for students.

There's the answer in a nutshell. There is nothing like competition when it comes to creating quality.

ChrisLA says

If you people were so great at doing the right thing we wouldn’t have an education system that is a total joke. All I hear every year from the CTA is begging for more money which they will gladly waste all around as usual. Money has been thrown at you people for years, and nothing good came out of it.

As a parent I see schools as some dinosaur union complacent system where no one gives a damn about anything because there is no reason to care. You people don’t have to out-compete, to out-perform or out-educate. And there is this entitlement mentality of “I’ll sit on my ass for a few years with tenure and taxpayers owe me for a lifetime.”

It really is time for unions to go and education to be changed into a voucher based system so that schools start competing for students.

Please tell me you went to private school; otherwise, you are proof public schools failed at least one time. Your comments are truly uninformed and based purely on what Fox News and AM radio tell you to believe.

You don't need to be educated in order to provide for the necessities of life:

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14575982/mob-of-thieves-swarms-las-vegas-convenience-store

state says

ahaha, yeah, the reason detroit is poor is because black people there have a bad attitude.

It's not the only reason, but it is a big one.

Even black people in the suburbs get upset when inner city blacks move in next to them:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2011/03/01/news/doc4d6d36b3b03ea856614749.txt

Same race, but very different attitudes.

We agree that attitude is not determined by race. That was exactly why I pointed out that article.

But it's also not just poverty and being around drug dealers that cause people in Detroit to end up like they do. Other cultural groups do better, even under harsher conditions: Chinese, Jews, Lebanese (the Lebanese run most of the shops in Detroit now).

Bill Cosby points out the self-destructive nature of inner-city American black culture here:

http://www.harisingh.com/newsCosby.htm

You think he doesn't know what he's talking about?

Chinese, Jews, Lebanese, Koreans came here with capital.

Blacks came here in chains.

Troy says

Chinese, Jews, Lebanese, Koreans came here with capital.
Blacks came here in chains.

The "chains" thing ended back in 1865. How long will that be used as an excuse?

Detroiters may not be able to read and write, but they can buy a crack pipe at any convenience store:

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/10/crack-pipes-often-disguised-as-novelty-items-at-stores/

RayAmerica says

The “chains” thing ended back in 1865. How long will that be used as an excuse?

I think they lost that excuse when Obama became a president.

I agree. One good reason to elect Obama was actually just the psychology of it. Seeing a black president proves that it is at least possible. Kind of like Kennedy was the proof that the Irish had arrived as full citizens.

state says

how privately run schools will make better use of money than public schools.

The main advantage that privately run schools have is that they can expel bad or disruptive students much more easily. Not a fair advantage, but it is something parents pay for.

Under a voucher system, the worst students would probably all get concentrated in the worst schools, which couldn't attract better ones.

The main advantage that privately run schools have is that they can expel bad or disruptive students much more easily.

They can also fire bad teachers. When you have school systems with an unhealthy symbiotic relationship with corrupt local officials and the unions they support, it's going to continue to unravel no matter how much money you throw at it. But since some people think that unions are more important than providing a quality level of education for our next generation, this will continue to rot away at our country's core.

One good reason to elect Obama was actually just the psychology of it.

Partially. But Obama was raised "white" basically. Not quite of the African-American community.

This country still has a long way to go to let eg. Jesse Jackson Jr get any respect.

At my school, UCLA: "in 2006 out of the 4,700 students in the Fall 2006 class, 96 were African American, and 20 of those were recruited athletes."

The “chains” thing ended back in 1865. How long will that be used as an excuse?

Funny thing is, the Homestead Act came into force in 1861 and ran through 1891 or so. How many black homesteaders were there?

Then of course there was Jim Crow in the South, and horrific racism everywhere else for the first half of the 20th century. Truman, Jackie Robinson, and Rosa Parks all happened well within living memory.

Capital formation is STRONGLY dependent on INTERGENERATIONAL effects -- how wealthy your parents are, who they know, what they teach you -- how well they FEED you for God's sake -- who your friends are, and how well they succeed.

Getting ahead in this society is a highly contingent thing really.

How much money would you pay to not be zapped into a person with black skin right now, if such a change were possible?

Inequality still abounds now.

klarek says

But since some people think that unions are more important than providing a quality level of education for our next generation, this will continue to rot away at our country’s core.

Brilliant. Unions and providing a good education to our kids are mutually exclusive. Why, because some retarded puppet told you so ?

Darrr, "your either with us, or your against us."

Bill Cosby points out the self-destructive nature of inner-city American black culture here:

http://www.harisingh.com/newsCosby.htm

You think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

I think he's an old timer, multimillionaire, very smart, and somewhat conservative African American. I respect what he's saying, but there is a lack of tolerance there. Obama's example will do 1000 times more to influence black kids than what Cosby says there.

By the way, I love Cosby. My dad had a couple of his early albums. Extremely funny stuff. He's a gifted dude.

I don't care for the generalizations, but I don't really want to get in to this one further.

marcus says

My dad had a couple of his early albums.

Fire 1 torpedo!

klarek says

They can also fire bad teachers. When you have school systems with an unhealthy symbiotic relationship with corrupt local officials and the unions they support, it’s going to continue to unravel no matter how much money you throw at it. But since some people think that unions are more important than providing a quality level of education for our next generation, this will continue to rot away at our country’s core.

Eduction lately has crumbled under union greed and fear and will continue to do so at least until unions go.

Is it just me, or is it annoying when people who truly know zero or even less than zero (yes that's possible - it's called lies), talk as if they are actually knowledgeable about a subject?

Chris, please give me some credible sources for this knowledge of yours, about the damage that unions are doing. Who knows, maybe even one source could be something other than an opinion piece from a right wing extremist.

I won't hold my breath. You worked this out all by yourself, maybe with a little help from talk radio. Imressive. I know, I know, you just feel it in your gut. I have no respect for lying %^&*bags, so please Chris, show me you aren't one. Give us some evidence. You can make your assertions, but it's pretty pathetic if that's all you've got.

Are you smart enough to acknowledge that if you don't have sources other than right wing extremists, for these ugly hateful assertions, that you might just be full of sh&^.

Let me guess. "Well, umm, I just know,...because unions,...all they do is demand more more more, none of them actually work hard. With them it's all about getting paid for doing nothing.....blah, blah bah," bs on top of bs on top of more bs lies.

I guess you can make stuff up, just like your heroes on talk radio, and magically it becomes true for you. That's a real service your heroes are doing for this country.

Have you no shame for the lies you make up? Can you show some studies or objective reporting that backs up what you say?

Probably not. But I guess that's probably the fault of the left wing communist dominated media.

marcus, if you're insinuating that unions aren't harming our public schools, you couldn't be more wrong. They square teachers and administrative staff against the interests of our kids and the taxpaying public. They marginalize young teachers who have to accept substandard salaries because of their tenured, seniority-based system which promotes the interests of shitty teachers and redundant administrative staff. The sheer amount of waste in terms of dollars is one thing, but being unable to fire non-performing teachers is an absolute disgrace.

For you to seek sources on this suggests you've never bothered reading into it at all. If literature bores you, I suggest two documentaries: "Waiting for Superman" and "The Cartel". If you feel up to the challenge and want a good book, I recommend Terry Moe's "Special Interest". Before you accuse others of "lies", you ought to at least have some background knowledge on the topic.

It's been shown in school districts - from good to outright horrible - that throwing money at the problem will not make it go away and in fact can exacerbate it. Look at DC and NJ where the cost per student has skyrocketed while performance has sunk to the worst in the nation.

There's so much corruption and outright theft going on, and kids are being used as disposable pawns for these union cretins. This isn't like the NUMMI plant where the negative consequences of unions' poison are limited to shitty cars. This is a poison to our kids' futures, and it's insulting for union suck-ups such as yourself to pull the whole "derp derp that's just what right wingers tell you to believe". Ask any good school teacher and they'll confirm for you what you're incapable of believing.

Or you can just hang onto your stupid fucking partisan talking points which is all you seem capable of doing.

klarek says

Before you accuse others of “lies”, you ought to at least have some background knowledge on the topic.

I have far more knowledge on the topic than you. I am a teacher at a great school, so I guess it is at least one counter example to your propaganda.

klarek says

Or you can just hang onto your stupid fucking partisan talking points which is all you seem capable of doing.

Every source you listed is by someone with an anti union or pro charter agenda.

Either you also have a right wing agenda, because of what AM talk radio or fox news has told you, or,...oh wait, that would be redundant, nevermind.

klarek says

t’s been shown in school districts - from good to outright horrible - that throwing money at the problem will not make it go away and in fact can exacerbate it.

Well, I guess if we don't want to spend more money on educating our children, then that insane assertion will be convenient for you and your super rich corporate overlords.

If there were one thing I would suggest you read, it would be this.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/

By the way, Ravitch has turned 180 degrees, she was in the Bush admin, and previously advocated many of the things you do.

ANother piece from the new yorker that might put things in perspective for you, but hey, don't read it, you know the lies you want to believe, with zero evidence.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2010/09/27/100927taco_talk_lemann

Fact: "The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985."

klarek says

stupid fucking partisan talking points

Indeed.

Ravitch's most recent book: "The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education"

Isn't it interesting that if one is a republican, and doesn't like that unions often back democrats, that SOME republicans will conveniently spout made up bs anti-union bullcrap.

I would be the first to advocate for certain reforms of unions. It's tricky business though. The big one is altering the degree to which "bad" teachers are overly protected, while maintaining protections for teachers who for example have a legitimate conflict with a "bad" administrator. But over all, the idea that all of the challenges in public education can be solved by eliminating unions and then paying teachers less, is laughably transparent. Are you really that gullible? Or is it that the end justifies the means ? (and do you really understand the end that you are advocating?)

Here's another one for you.

"The high Cost of Low Teacher Salaries"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

"Imagine a novice teacher, thrown into an urban school, told to teach five classes a day, with up to 40 students each."

I like that, up to 40 students each. Try up to 50.

klarek says

marcus, if you’re insinuating that unions aren’t harming our public schools, you couldn’t be more wrong. They square teachers and administrative staff against the interests of our kids and the taxpaying public. They marginalize young teachers who have to accept substandard salaries because of their tenured, seniority-based system which promotes the interests of shitty teachers and redundant administrative staff. The sheer amount of waste in terms of dollars is one thing, but being unable to fire non-performing teachers is an absolute disgrace.

Marcus is just protecting his own union hiney. He feels very defensive about unions in general being a member himself.

marcus says

Is it just me, or is it annoying when people who truly know zero or even less than zero (yes that’s possible - it’s called lies), talk as if they are actually knowledgeable about a subject?

No, it's not just you. I've been saying this lately on other threads around here. It's quite astounding how people who know so little about a topic feel that they are "experts" in that very topic simply because they saw or heard something about it on a news program or read it on the Internet somewhere.

I firmly believe that the dismantling of public education has been planned since at least Reagan:

RayAmerica says

Ronald Reagan said at the end of his 2nd. term his biggest regret was not closing down the Department of Education.

The reason why conservatives want vouchers and charter schools is to deprive those poor disadvantaged (black, hispanic, etc.) children of any kind of real education while providing their white privileged children a good education. This maintains the status quo where privileged people maintain all of the power and wealth in the country. It creates a Plutocratic Oligarchy by keeping an underclass uneducated and therefore easily manipulated through propaganda and lies. It allows the conservatives to keep lying to their disadvantaged poor white constituents in order to keep their votes because these people are too uneducated to see through the lies.

Public education, done well and equitably, has the chance of educating an entire society where everyone has a basic knowledge of how society functions and how government should function. This is a dangerous idea to conservatives because if all people in this country had a basic knowledge of how things are supposed to work, the conservatives and their privileged elite would no longer be in power.

The reality of this country is that conservatives elites talk about an alleged meritocracy while actively working against anyone not of their class so that only they and theirs can continue to rule in wealth and power over the rude masses of uneducated cretins.

I won't get too deeply into the blatant racism and bigotry contained in this thread because conservatives get all upset when you point out their obvious racism and bigotry claiming that they are simply misunderstood and that liberals are engaging in character assassination. Someone else did a great job of explaining how generations of oppresion has kept black people down in our society in this thread. I'm not going to repeat it. I doubt that conservatives would dare to acknowledge the truth of those statements. Truth isn't a conservative value. Maintaining power and wealth in the hands of an elite few is the only conservative value.

Destroying public education is the best way to eliminate any chance that the under-classes will ever displace the conservative elite. Public eduction is enemy #1 for a conservative elitist.

George Carlin would agree with out about public education being the enemy of conservative elitists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=rsL6mKxtOlQ#watch-headline