patrick.net

For Americans it is bread,butter and women and for Chinese and Indians it is show off.

Countries that have more confidence, and feel they can pay back loans and/or have enough to survive tend to spend more and save less.

In the US, it's not that difficult to find another job. Even if it's a fast food job, you *CAN* get another job. There are social programs to assist people out. The unemployment rates aren't 40% like in many asian countries, where 1 member supports an entire house hold, which would include grandparents, siblings, children, spouse.

In the US, one or two people in a family might find themselves out of a job, but the chances of everyone in an entire family finding themselves unemployed, with no access to any type of loan/cash is almost impossible.

Other countries save because they have to, the US spends because it can. Debt spending has been happening since the 1950's, it didn't kill us back then, it probably won't kill us now. At least 70% of families earn more than they spend in the US. Which means there is still 30% out there spending too much. It's not every american, the news just makes it sound that way.

Well said buddy!

newbie says

SiO2 says

I think that these immigrants are willing to spend a higher percentage of income on owning than are people born in the US. So they’ll give up the fancy car and drive a Camry, don’t go out to expensive restaurants, then use that money to buy in the desired neighborhood and school district.

1. Americans live through their credit cards, meaning, they buy more than they can afford. Asian value system teaches them to live within their means and have their priorities straight. Lets put it this way, if we had good schools everywhere (like in the east coast), the Chinese and Indians would not try to squeeze into the over-saturated places like Saratoga, Cupertino and Los Altos.
2. It is not that the Chinese or Indians do not spend their money. If that was true, they would not be spending the money on buying an over-priced house in the first place. The reality is, their priority is different. An American gets an erection out of an expensive show-off car and dining in expensive restaurants with an intention to impress the women, the Chinese and Indians get an erection by sending their kids to the “best” school so that they can SHOW OFF their kids in their community.

The chinese have a few cultural differences. They are just entering a phase in their country where they can take risks with their education. They went into careers that traditionally had decent returns. Like accounting.

Poetry, Arts, Music, Physics, Math, or areas that didn't generate a solid income were frowned upon. As a country becomes more confident, they expand. It used to be that everything was invented here, and manufactured over there, because they spent so much time learning accounting, and exact sciences that it became hard to look outside the box. Their schools didn't emphasis on this. Now, I think more of their children are opening up, and they're starting to innovate over there as well.

This is less about the chinese, and more about their economic situation. This can be seen in most poorer countries around the world. Many countries push for education in useful areas and frown upon the arts and what not. We've lost a lot of entrepreneurial spirit here as well, but it only makes sense. Average employee wages aren't too bad. In a 5 man operation, the difference in income between employee and employeer isn't going to 100:1, it'll probably be 4:1, maybe 5:1. Not only that, the amount people earn will be enough to feed them and house them. In other countries, they can end up with 100:1 ratios where the owner makes enmasse and employees are paid peanuts. Really, if you aren't thinking of creating your own business, you're not thinking about your survival. Here if you're not thinking of creating your own business, people look up to you, like good job! go for it! We view things differently here.

For many of these cultures, such as Indian, they feel *VERY* lonely when they get over here. They were brought up in a hose with 10+ people, parents, siblings, grand parents, etc. They often crave having others around. Our society is designed to operate on 1 couple + children (until 18) at home, no one else. We are paid/demand wages of this level. Anyone who stays at home living with their parents for a couple years, and saving knows how fast they can save. Without rent, cable bills, etc, their saving increase rapdily. For indians, by having many family members under one roof, they are simply living the way they are used to, and in the process saving enmasse. It's a cultural thing for them. For them it's great.

SF ace says

Just look at what is happening in the bay area closely. For example, a big 4 accounting firm in the bay area, which employs about 5K -10K on the aggregate is dominated by Chinese, perhaps as high as 50%

I doubt you will find more than 30% locally. In other regions is much much less than that. They are very good at memorizing accounting standards for the CPA exam. But when you reword the same problem on the CPA exam, they flunk out. The prior version of the CPA exam was changed to combat this problem of easy passing by simply memorizing the answers. The problems have gone from all multiple choice to more actual problem solving and writing skills. And who is pushing for this ? The big 4 who have been burned over the past few years.

The one thing I have about much of the Asian population here in San Jose is that they operate great numbers of little shops. Hair salons, small restaurants, smoke shops, nail shops, flower shops and all sorts little cash businesses. There are so many, one has to wonder how all of them manage to survive. I knew a rather prominent restaurant owner once, and besides being a total slave driver, the other key to his success was taking the first half of the days take and putting right in his pocket. That's right. Those reciepts never showed on the ledger. Those cash businesses are big tax evading cash cows. Perhaps incomes in San Jose are significantly higher than IRS figures report because of so much unreported (and untaxed) income. Is this part of the reason so much real estate is being paid for with cash?

SF ace says

I guess that sort of explains why San Francisco, Cupertino, Fremont, Vancouver (Richmond), San Gabriel Valley, and Washington DC prices are high, areas with a high density of Chinese than without. New York just has a lot of people, not a high density of chinese.

So why did California home prices dive in the early 90s and current nose dived!!!!

Yes Chinese folks like to gamble too.. perhaps gambling with homes was not a good idea.

Well I'm not trying to suggest that it all falls to one ethnic group or another. All colors are included in this issue. That issue is a pervasive general lawlessness. If you think you can get away with something and profit it's all good. Penalties for many of these sorts of things amount to a slap on the wrist and the cost of doing business. They pay a fine and it's back to business as usual. When you commit a felony, you need to go to prison. Once that starts happening, people will quickly surmise that maybe playing it straight is the least risky course of action.

There are several other factors that are being missed and chalked up to Asians (or others) living together, and how we maybe should try the same thing.

The key isn't that they have the "right" answer, it's that they do things DIFFERENTLY than we do. We have chosen to live on our own, there are reasons for that as well. We are tight on time, we want to socialize with like minded people (not necessarily our neighbors, or the garbage men), and we're a pretty honest society which shows in our productivity. The more honest a group is, the harder it is to live with each other. How long can you hold your tongues when your cousins/aunts/family come visiting and say something truly outrageous? We can't. Imagine living day in, day out with those people. We can't do it. You need to be a little liberal with your thoughts to do that. Less honest, more social, more forgiving. We can't easily live under a single roof due to this. It's not that we have given up family values, it's that we've embraced honesty to the point where we can't live with others easily. We've optimized our time so well, that talking to the garbage man who comes by weekly isn't something we're interested in doing, we have limited time. We want to talk with other like minded people, about subjects they're experts in.

That being said, *IF* we moved in all together to buy property like the asians do, what would happen? We just changed our culture, the average wealth per family goes up... and property sky rockets. Now buying a single home will be WAY more expensive. The asians don't have it "right" they just do it differently, and in our culture, it pays off very well.

As for all cash businesses. Countries where honesty isn't necessarily a needed value (trust is needed, not honesty, honesty), they often feel that if you aren't properly fact checking them, then it's YOUR fault for not collecting the proper taxes. Many countries that have a value system that don't encourage honesty (but do encourage trust - don't get them confused!!), have incredibly complex systems to catch cheats. Work is done by multiple parties, work is rechecked by 3rd parties, overlapping work by individuals. Governments look at multiple aspects of a business to determine it's taxes, vs just the account ledger. Some countries just tax the hell out of goods that they know are too expensive for the average person to buy. Put a 100% tax on a BMW, and that person who cheats on his taxes, pays his taxes one way or another. If they choose to do nothing with their money, so be it. But if they want to actually use their hard earned money, just find ingenious ways to properly tax it. In aftrica, I was told that the currency changes every year or so. You need to take ALL your hard currency in and exchange it before it's devalued to 0. The people who bring in big bags of money with no proof of paying taxes, well they pay their taxes then.

1. Newbie says "Lets put it this way, if we had good schools everywhere (like in the east coast), "

Believe me, there's plenty of bad schools in the east coast. Inner cities of Camden, Phila, Baltimore, make East SJ look pleasant. And rural areas have problems too.
Having said that, it's probably true that the median school in NY, NJ, PA is better than the median school of CA. Spending $12k/year may have something to do with that. It's high here (like Palo Alto) but average in those places.

2. Another factor about Chinese/Indian etc is that we don't see the "average" Asian here. We see the immigrants, who tend to have college education, more driven, and more risk-taking (as mentioned above). Think about it, what a risk to move across the ocean to a place where you hardly know anyone. Yet I know many people that did this, with less than $1k cash, and now are successful. There's definitely some selection bias here.

3. More related to property bubble in China- I was flipping through the channels the other night, and the Chinese language station was showing a drama. This scene showed a mad frenzy of people bidding on apartments. There was a model of the building in a display case, uniformed agents marking the board with who was bidding on which place, and a lot of people making the bids. Hmm kind of like "flip this house" a few years back in the US.

@SiO2,
Totally true about the average vs what we see here. We're getting the best of the best. And when they come here, and put in whatever hours were required of them to become the best of the best over there, they come the best here often. Taking those risks and working hard.

Having an open "bidding" process might be more common over there. And at least you see who you are bidding against and can bid to your hearts content. It might cause some homes to become over valued, but really it comes down to, what can you afford, and what are you willing to pay for it. The old adage of "If you win every auction, you're paying too much" is true here too. Bidding is bad for emotional people, but at least they get to see their "opponents" or whats going on behind the scenes.

deanrite says

The one thing I have about much of the Asian population here in San Jose is that they operate great numbers of little shops. Hair salons, small restaurants, smoke shops, nail shops, flower shops and all sorts little cash businesses.

Been true for a long time. Even Castro st in Mt View and Murphy St in Sunnyvale Chinese restaurants back in the early 70s. Yes I would say there is plenty of cash transactions going on, but the fact is the IRS goes after more strongly on small business due to easy cash "spoilage". Its actually very easy for the IRS audit to have full access to business and person bank accounts and verify the accounting records.

SiO2 says

2. Another factor about Chinese/Indian etc is that we don’t see the “average” Asian here. We see the immigrants, who tend to have college education, more driven, and more risk-taking (as mentioned above).

Ug! you mean like the Vietnamese who were tought in French schools back in Nam and came here in the early 1970s? the same ones that were taking Chemistry, Calculas, and Computer programming back in the 1970s in our High Schools later to be employed by Silicon Valley back in the 1980s?
Geez! I guess the largest "asian" community really doesnt count. They are just 'average'! LOL! What a riot!!!

@thomas

Two points that should be made. The ones who were taking the courses back in the 1970's were still likely first generation children. The parents were still likely pushing extremely hard on them to excel, as if they were back in their homeland countries where maximum education was a must to just survive, not just for personal "growth". Also, when the community is injected with the brightest immigrants, it's going to skew the appearance and results of any that aren't living up to those "standards". While it might not hold true all the time, the number of over achievers per 100,000 people is probably a decently small number normally, so by injecting even a small number of extra over achievers into that number, it's going to appear that the per 100,000 number is way higher than the norm for those cultures.

You will find many of them never heard of or even wanted to live in San Jose or Sunnyvale before the fall of Saigon. They came here because many were Catholics.

To somehow claim it attracted, or injected, the brightest immigrants is a desperate (pathic) try of rewritting history to suite some parties myoptic view of this regions history.

@thomas

There are roughly 2% of the population with a phd. 1 in 50. How many people need to be brought into this country as a minority to shift that rate WAY up? How many people immigrating have higher educations? Higher education means faster immigration. The US pushes it's immigration standards. It is possible to get in without a higher education, but the higher the better and the faster track you're put on.

Many of the work visas require high education requirements. All of those people are seriously pushing their minorities education level through the roof.

Many people in Saigon might not have know where San Jose was, but paying for a flight requires money. If I told you it cost $100,000 to fly to the moon, who do you think would live on the moon? A flight from Saigon to here might not be 100K, but if you're making $3/day, a $1000 ticket + legal fees does push those people out of line for immigration. Some might push to make it work, but the majority who do make it over, will be doing well enough in their origin countries to pay for expensive legal and relocation costs, while the poor can't.

pkennedy says

Many people in Saigon might not have know where San Jose was, but paying for a flight requires money. If I told you it cost $100,000 to fly to the moon, who do you think would live on the moon? A flight from Saigon to here might not be 100K, but if you’re making $3/day, a $1000 ticket + legal fees does push those people out of line for immigration. Some might push to make it work, but the majority who do make it over, will be doing well enough in their origin countries to pay for expensive legal and relocation costs, while the poor can’t.

I disagree. People who have good amount of wealth wouldn't want to come here. They have full-time servants/maids, chauffeurs, lands, political clouts. Why would they come here? To drive Toyota Camry on I-280? One of the primary reasons people migrate to another country, willfully, is opportunity. Wealthy people don't need to move to another country to find opportunity. I know many people who moved to USA/Canada from China and India in 1960s, 1970s. They did not have anything when they moved here. They were able to come here because they had support from family members living in USA.
Since 1990s another group of immigrants started coming here. They are primarily professionals - engineers, doctors etc. Again, for same reason - opportunity.
So, saying only "best of the best" wealthy people are migrating to USA is a kind of stretch.

pkennedy says

How many people immigrating have higher educations? Higher education means faster immigration. The US pushes it’s immigration standards. It is possible to get in without a higher education, but the higher the better and the faster track you’re put on.

Not necessarily. This excel sheet from DHS provides some stats about permanent residency issued to immigrants. Majority of them are family based or immediate relative of US citizens (parents, children, brother etc). Employment based immigration is minuscule compare to family based category.

2006 stat:
Family based + immediate relatives: 222K + 580K
Employment based: 159K

From the article...

State-owned China Investment Corp. last year bought a 15.8% stake in AES Corp., which operates an electric power plant in Huntington Beach. (Robert Lachman / Los Angeles Times).

OK, CIC, went on the open market and bought 15.8% of shares in AES. So what? Many local companies also take a stake by buying minority shares in other companies. They may turn around this or next year and sell it for short term gains. It doesnt mean squat for real estate.

There are truly stupid newspaper articles out there.

pkennedy says

Many people in Saigon might not have know where San Jose was, but paying for a flight requires money. If I told you it cost $100,000 to fly to the moon, who do you think would live on the moon? A flight from Saigon to here might not be 100K, but if you’re making $3/day, a $1000 ticket + legal fees does push those people out of line for immigration. Some might push to make it work, but the majority who do make it over, will be doing well enough in their origin countries to pay for expensive legal and relocation costs, while the poor can’t.

Jesus PK, dont you recall the fall of Saigon and the exodus in 1975, choppers evacuating the Viets off the roof tops of the US embassy onto the US Navy Carriers? Not to mention the Boat People up to 1980s. These people left South Vietnam with the cloths on their back and a hair brush in their hand! Over 110K people were evacuated.

Wow I think the statement of Chinese investors buying up land in the US was taken too heavily. My interpretation, along with my realtor's interpretation is that contractors (or investors, and statistically Chinese), are buying up the properties in an attempt to flip these properties. Another segment of that statement is that Chinese families are the ones putting huge down payments of 50%++. According to my realtor here in the San Francisco area, majority of the buyers closing on these cash-only sales are Chinese.

@P2D2

One thing to consider, is that 160K of employment is huge compared with family. Family might still overwhelm the, but % wise, they're skewing the education level way up there, compared with the average American family. Family members are likely to have decent educations, education is a MUST in most of these countries, to even get a basic job. There will obviously be a fair number without a decent education, but proportional to the number of educated coming in, it's being massively skewed towards educated.

I fully agree with you that wealthy people aren't going to move. However, it's possible to be very well educated without having wealth. In most of those countries, unless you're running the company, you'd not making anything, even with a great education.

Many also think they can come here, jack up their savings rates and head home one day with pockets full of money. Live simply, save and move back one day. Of course after having a family here, and living here for 10 or 15 years it gets hard. After getting into the "spend it all!" mentality, it gets even more difficult.

Vain says

Wow I think the statement of Chinese investors buying up land in the US was taken too heavily.

Indeed, it practically impossible! You cannot take more than $5000 out of the country. What the heck are you going to buy with that. Ponder what would happen if some get cought smuggling currency out of China. This is China, a Communist nation, not some western democracy which has some ideas of peoples rights to move out as they please.

SF ace says

This is getting confusing. Here is the most accurate picture of how Asian immigration works:

Communist nations dont allow their most valuable citizens just to walk out. The Asian immigrants you see are from Hong Kong years before the hand over from UK to mainland in 1997.

SF ace says

In case #1, 2, 3, you do get the above average citizen in their home country, In case #4, you have an organic motivation to do well because the opportunities are not balanced. It takes a generation or two to be on even par.

There is no direct green card route for student visa. Once they graduate, they will fall into worker visa provided they can find a job here. That's the only way they can green card (excluding extraordinary research category which is very very small in number). As the statistics shows, immigration through employment is very small in number compare to family tree category.

Thomas, I personally know several people who have taken more than $5000 USD out of China. One person by actually smuggling in her clothes. Others by wiring the funds. So it's certainly possible.

Also,
"Communist nations dont allow their most valuable citizens just to walk out. The Asian immigrants you see are from Hong Kong years before the hand over from UK to mainland in 1997.
"
Surely there are some who were not allowed to leave. But generally speaking the challenge for a Chinese citizen to come to the US is getting the visa, not getting a passport. Just look around Cupertino, there's many more Chinese immigrants than in 1997.

Regarding the immigration through employment vs immigration through family - to really answer this question of "are Chinese (or other Asian immigrants) raising Fortress housing prices", you'd have to look at this for Chinese/Asian immigrants, not immigrants from all sources. If the majority of Chinese immigrants are employment, then it could be true even though the majority of all-source immmigrants are family. Of the Asian people I know, there's way more work-related immigrants. But that's because the people I know are age 25-40 and work in high tech. So it's a biased sample.

SF Ace had a good rundown of the various immigrant categories. I would say one thing regarding work visas. L1 (internal transfer) has no wage requirements. And someone here on an L1 cannot switch companies. Therefore the company has no legal obligation to pay market wage, nor do they have any risk of the person quitting to work elsewhere. H1B visa has a legal obligation to pay market wage. Furthermore the H1b can transfer the visa to another company. So the company has the legal obligation to pay market wage, plus, if they don't the person quit. In fact I know someone who got a raise specifically because they had an h1b and their wage was below market. Also, the company has the expense of the legal fees. So it's really cheaper for a company to hire a US Citizen or green card holder - if they can find one who can do the job. Certainly there are companies who abuse the H1b but in my experience H1b people are paid the same as citizens or green card holders. The main reason I would hire an H1b person is because they were best suited for the job, not because I would pay them less.

In the broad view it's possible that the increase of labor supply due to the h1b immigrants reduces wages. But it's also possible that the companies started by immigrants hire people both immigrant and citizen - something like 50-60% of silicon valley companies have immigrant founders. I don't really know which way it tips, but I do believe that having more intelligent and hard working people in the country is a benefit.

SiO2 says

Thomas, I personally know several people who have taken more than $5000 USD out of China. One person by actually smuggling in her clothes. Others by wiring the funds. So it’s certainly possible.

Well but you have to realize that if you are caught with money that is not declared, it will be forfeited. If you wire it, you will be taxed, making it not worthwhile. And the magic number for the United States about currency declaration is $10000. I don't know how it is in China. I suppose you can make 50 round trips to and from China transporting $9999 each trip to be able make an all cash offer on a home. But then, you'd be red flagged by the Department of Homeland Security. They will snoop thru all your things to see why you are going back and forth so much on your 4th trip or so, triggering an investigation. The canines in many customs quarantine areas can sniff out money. The officer just holds the dog back as he observes where the dog tries to go for. If the dog is pulling towards your luggage, you have a problem.

@Sio2

I agree with your assessment of the whole h1b process. Some probably do get lower wages than their counter parts, but if a company hires someone for far below market wages, then pays for relocation, pays legal fees, visa fees and pays for all of the other little extras they're going to end up in the roughly the same position. Not to mention, within a few years, those people can switch positions, and take their time making that switch to a proper paying position. The employer just ends up in a constant hiring circle.

In general, it's the quality of the applicants that creates the need for these people. Not to mention, if they're not given these positions here, they'll take something low paying in their home country and then be competing directly with companies over here. It's a huge detriment to country to lose these people. The whole "communist countries don't allow good people to leave", there is a reason for that, it's a detriment to those countries. Countries allow immigrants because it's good for their countries.

“golden handcuff” refers to stock options vesting, nothing more. There is no value in bringing an immigrant employee here when you can as easily set up shop as legal entity in foreign land. My company has 15 such shops oversees with 2 being R&D. Our India R&D has 125 employees. Whats the point of bringing them over here, if its cheaper keeping them there? Is it the weather, being closer to Stanford U and the Mother Ship ?

Vain says

Well but you have to realize that if you are caught with money that is not declared, it will be forfeited. If you wire it, you will be taxed, making it not worthwhile. And the magic number for the United States about currency declaration is $10000. I don’t know how it is in China. I suppose you can make 50 round trips to and from China transporting $9999

First trip out you can declare and carry out $5000 the next $4000 the third $3000 and so on.

We are talking about China, not the US or other western nation, you get cought with a bag of weed, they slap your hand here, but in China you get executed. The idea someone is going to wire out $100K is just laughable! Its practically impossible to wire out $5 from corporate accounts with companies doing business in China.

L1 Visa are not that large in number, and has not made any large impact, but do carry restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L1_visa

H1B visa, current limit is 65K and falling, thats down from over 195K 10 years ago. Not a big impact.
In addition, they are required to pay US and State Taxes, even though then may move back.

It's really only worth setting up a HQ in another country if you have a large enough need for it. If you've got 3-5 positions to fill, it's really not worth it. Trying to manage a small number of people over such distances can be a real headache. Especially when there are cultural differences, and when those people aren't involved directly in products all of the time.

Unofficial/non meeting related conversations are often missed as well, leaving people in other locations blind. It really makes it difficult to get a lot of good work from those people then.

So having people come here, to work locally is very cost effective. I've worked with teams where people were flying back and forth all the time. People were having issues syncing up, time differences were causing headaches for all (6am meetings, or midnight meetings), etc.

I know several folks who were here on student or working visas who married their greencard. EVEN Chinese (Mainland and from other Chinese places) marrying ABC's. It's an equal opportunity loophole, known people of both genders and from all over (Europe, Latin America, Middle East, East Asia, South Asia, Iran).

SF Ace,
the h1b rules have changed in recent years. Earlier, the H1B could not switch companies. But now they can. So there is some incentive for the company to pay market wage.

Having said that, you are correct about the green card process. If Mr H1b is close to getting the green card (sponsored by company) he is unlikely to quit. But if the company is smart, they would realize that underpaying Mr H1B will cause him to quit upon green card receipt. So if they want to keep him they should pay market wage. And if they don't, then why would they sponsor the green card? But I'm sure there are cases of shortsighted managers underpaying the h1b person.

ThomasWong, it's true that the current H1b limit is lower. But to bring it back to the original question, it's not newly hired H1bs who buy property. It's the people who came earlier and are now in a point in their career where they can do it. The effect is surely variable by area - high in Cupertino, low in Los Gatos, even though those two places have similar median home prices.

And, I personally know a PRC resident who wired $50k to a brokerage account here. I don't know the ins and outs of how it works, but it can be done. here's some info
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/MDForum-viewtopic-t-96670.phtml
Seems that a PRC citizen can transfer $50k usd per year. Not enough to buy a house in CA, so maybe my statement is true but irrelevant to this question!

SF ace says

wow thomas, what don’t you understand, you can’t leave the company (handcuff) because there is an incentive (something golden), which is what a lot of H1B visa worker had to deal with.

Of course they can leave.. they get fired, terminated, downsized, reorged, transfered out etc etc.

SiO2 says

And, I personally know a PRC resident who wired $50k to a brokerage account here. I don’t know the ins and outs of how it works, but it can be done. here’s some info
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/MDForum-viewtopic-t-96670.phtml
Seems that a PRC citizen can transfer $50k usd per year. Not enough to buy a house in CA, so maybe my statement is true but irrelevant to this question!

LOL! Good luck on that one.

pkennedy says

It’s really only worth setting up a HQ in another country if you have a large enough need for it. If you’ve got 3-5 positions to fill, it’s really not worth it. Trying to manage a small number of people over such distances can be a real headache. Especially when there are cultural differences, and when those people aren’t involved directly in products all of the time.

They are not HQ, They are regional Sales offices operated as legal entity in order to do business on behalf of the Parent Company. Done everyday. Our typical sales staff in 12 other countries has anywhere from 1 to 5 sales people per each country. Some are bigger, like India 125. Typically you just rent out a Regus Office Suite (Rent an Office) on a month to month basis for a small staff. Runs for 500-1000 USD per month.

The sales people who do a lot better than Engineers since they log in sales and earn hefty sales/service commissions. The foreign sales team have no motivation into moving out of their sales territory and lose future sales commissions, which can be substantial.

pkennedy says

Unofficial/non meeting related conversations are often missed as well, leaving people in other locations blind. It really makes it difficult to get a lot of good work from those people then.
So having people come here, to work locally is very cost effective. I’ve worked with teams where people were flying back and forth all the time. People were having issues syncing up, time differences were causing headaches for all (6am meetings, or midnight meetings), etc.

LOL! I done that many times over every quarter with each of our foreign entities. That is the cost of doing business, otherwise its all emails. Once a year our world wide sales org has a kick off meeting, when all the teams come here for a beer bash and talk about Sales objectives.

from page B3 of today's San Jose Mercury News:

"Parents raising funds to save teacher jobs"

"A group of parents hoping to prevent more than 100 teachers in the Cupertino Union School DIstrict Union School from losing their jobs kicked off a massive fundraising campaign Tuesday at Nimitz Elementary School in Sunnyvale that attracted a packed and raucous house, including dozens of students with piggy banks ready to contribute to the cause".

"Parents organizing the 'Their Future is Now' campaign hope to raise $3 million by May 15 to save as many as 107 K-08 teachers from receiving pink slips."

California will be even cheaper once the Chinese currency appreciates.