patrick.net

pkennedy says

Many people in Saigon might not have know where San Jose was, but paying for a flight requires money. If I told you it cost $100,000 to fly to the moon, who do you think would live on the moon? A flight from Saigon to here might not be 100K, but if you’re making $3/day, a $1000 ticket + legal fees does push those people out of line for immigration. Some might push to make it work, but the majority who do make it over, will be doing well enough in their origin countries to pay for expensive legal and relocation costs, while the poor can’t.

Jesus PK, dont you recall the fall of Saigon and the exodus in 1975, choppers evacuating the Viets off the roof tops of the US embassy onto the US Navy Carriers? Not to mention the Boat People up to 1980s. These people left South Vietnam with the cloths on their back and a hair brush in their hand! Over 110K people were evacuated.

Wow I think the statement of Chinese investors buying up land in the US was taken too heavily. My interpretation, along with my realtor's interpretation is that contractors (or investors, and statistically Chinese), are buying up the properties in an attempt to flip these properties. Another segment of that statement is that Chinese families are the ones putting huge down payments of 50%++. According to my realtor here in the San Francisco area, majority of the buyers closing on these cash-only sales are Chinese.

@P2D2

One thing to consider, is that 160K of employment is huge compared with family. Family might still overwhelm the, but % wise, they're skewing the education level way up there, compared with the average American family. Family members are likely to have decent educations, education is a MUST in most of these countries, to even get a basic job. There will obviously be a fair number without a decent education, but proportional to the number of educated coming in, it's being massively skewed towards educated.

I fully agree with you that wealthy people aren't going to move. However, it's possible to be very well educated without having wealth. In most of those countries, unless you're running the company, you'd not making anything, even with a great education.

Many also think they can come here, jack up their savings rates and head home one day with pockets full of money. Live simply, save and move back one day. Of course after having a family here, and living here for 10 or 15 years it gets hard. After getting into the "spend it all!" mentality, it gets even more difficult.

Vain says

Wow I think the statement of Chinese investors buying up land in the US was taken too heavily.

Indeed, it practically impossible! You cannot take more than $5000 out of the country. What the heck are you going to buy with that. Ponder what would happen if some get cought smuggling currency out of China. This is China, a Communist nation, not some western democracy which has some ideas of peoples rights to move out as they please.

SF ace says

This is getting confusing. Here is the most accurate picture of how Asian immigration works:

Communist nations dont allow their most valuable citizens just to walk out. The Asian immigrants you see are from Hong Kong years before the hand over from UK to mainland in 1997.

SF ace says

In case #1, 2, 3, you do get the above average citizen in their home country, In case #4, you have an organic motivation to do well because the opportunities are not balanced. It takes a generation or two to be on even par.

There is no direct green card route for student visa. Once they graduate, they will fall into worker visa provided they can find a job here. That's the only way they can green card (excluding extraordinary research category which is very very small in number). As the statistics shows, immigration through employment is very small in number compare to family tree category.

Thomas, I personally know several people who have taken more than $5000 USD out of China. One person by actually smuggling in her clothes. Others by wiring the funds. So it's certainly possible.

Also,
"Communist nations dont allow their most valuable citizens just to walk out. The Asian immigrants you see are from Hong Kong years before the hand over from UK to mainland in 1997.
"
Surely there are some who were not allowed to leave. But generally speaking the challenge for a Chinese citizen to come to the US is getting the visa, not getting a passport. Just look around Cupertino, there's many more Chinese immigrants than in 1997.

Regarding the immigration through employment vs immigration through family - to really answer this question of "are Chinese (or other Asian immigrants) raising Fortress housing prices", you'd have to look at this for Chinese/Asian immigrants, not immigrants from all sources. If the majority of Chinese immigrants are employment, then it could be true even though the majority of all-source immmigrants are family. Of the Asian people I know, there's way more work-related immigrants. But that's because the people I know are age 25-40 and work in high tech. So it's a biased sample.

SF Ace had a good rundown of the various immigrant categories. I would say one thing regarding work visas. L1 (internal transfer) has no wage requirements. And someone here on an L1 cannot switch companies. Therefore the company has no legal obligation to pay market wage, nor do they have any risk of the person quitting to work elsewhere. H1B visa has a legal obligation to pay market wage. Furthermore the H1b can transfer the visa to another company. So the company has the legal obligation to pay market wage, plus, if they don't the person quit. In fact I know someone who got a raise specifically because they had an h1b and their wage was below market. Also, the company has the expense of the legal fees. So it's really cheaper for a company to hire a US Citizen or green card holder - if they can find one who can do the job. Certainly there are companies who abuse the H1b but in my experience H1b people are paid the same as citizens or green card holders. The main reason I would hire an H1b person is because they were best suited for the job, not because I would pay them less.

In the broad view it's possible that the increase of labor supply due to the h1b immigrants reduces wages. But it's also possible that the companies started by immigrants hire people both immigrant and citizen - something like 50-60% of silicon valley companies have immigrant founders. I don't really know which way it tips, but I do believe that having more intelligent and hard working people in the country is a benefit.

SiO2 says

Thomas, I personally know several people who have taken more than $5000 USD out of China. One person by actually smuggling in her clothes. Others by wiring the funds. So it’s certainly possible.

Well but you have to realize that if you are caught with money that is not declared, it will be forfeited. If you wire it, you will be taxed, making it not worthwhile. And the magic number for the United States about currency declaration is $10000. I don't know how it is in China. I suppose you can make 50 round trips to and from China transporting $9999 each trip to be able make an all cash offer on a home. But then, you'd be red flagged by the Department of Homeland Security. They will snoop thru all your things to see why you are going back and forth so much on your 4th trip or so, triggering an investigation. The canines in many customs quarantine areas can sniff out money. The officer just holds the dog back as he observes where the dog tries to go for. If the dog is pulling towards your luggage, you have a problem.

@Sio2

I agree with your assessment of the whole h1b process. Some probably do get lower wages than their counter parts, but if a company hires someone for far below market wages, then pays for relocation, pays legal fees, visa fees and pays for all of the other little extras they're going to end up in the roughly the same position. Not to mention, within a few years, those people can switch positions, and take their time making that switch to a proper paying position. The employer just ends up in a constant hiring circle.

In general, it's the quality of the applicants that creates the need for these people. Not to mention, if they're not given these positions here, they'll take something low paying in their home country and then be competing directly with companies over here. It's a huge detriment to country to lose these people. The whole "communist countries don't allow good people to leave", there is a reason for that, it's a detriment to those countries. Countries allow immigrants because it's good for their countries.

“golden handcuff” refers to stock options vesting, nothing more. There is no value in bringing an immigrant employee here when you can as easily set up shop as legal entity in foreign land. My company has 15 such shops oversees with 2 being R&D. Our India R&D has 125 employees. Whats the point of bringing them over here, if its cheaper keeping them there? Is it the weather, being closer to Stanford U and the Mother Ship ?

Vain says

Well but you have to realize that if you are caught with money that is not declared, it will be forfeited. If you wire it, you will be taxed, making it not worthwhile. And the magic number for the United States about currency declaration is $10000. I don’t know how it is in China. I suppose you can make 50 round trips to and from China transporting $9999

First trip out you can declare and carry out $5000 the next $4000 the third $3000 and so on.

We are talking about China, not the US or other western nation, you get cought with a bag of weed, they slap your hand here, but in China you get executed. The idea someone is going to wire out $100K is just laughable! Its practically impossible to wire out $5 from corporate accounts with companies doing business in China.

L1 Visa are not that large in number, and has not made any large impact, but do carry restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L1_visa

H1B visa, current limit is 65K and falling, thats down from over 195K 10 years ago. Not a big impact.
In addition, they are required to pay US and State Taxes, even though then may move back.

It's really only worth setting up a HQ in another country if you have a large enough need for it. If you've got 3-5 positions to fill, it's really not worth it. Trying to manage a small number of people over such distances can be a real headache. Especially when there are cultural differences, and when those people aren't involved directly in products all of the time.

Unofficial/non meeting related conversations are often missed as well, leaving people in other locations blind. It really makes it difficult to get a lot of good work from those people then.

So having people come here, to work locally is very cost effective. I've worked with teams where people were flying back and forth all the time. People were having issues syncing up, time differences were causing headaches for all (6am meetings, or midnight meetings), etc.

I know several folks who were here on student or working visas who married their greencard. EVEN Chinese (Mainland and from other Chinese places) marrying ABC's. It's an equal opportunity loophole, known people of both genders and from all over (Europe, Latin America, Middle East, East Asia, South Asia, Iran).

SF Ace,
the h1b rules have changed in recent years. Earlier, the H1B could not switch companies. But now they can. So there is some incentive for the company to pay market wage.

Having said that, you are correct about the green card process. If Mr H1b is close to getting the green card (sponsored by company) he is unlikely to quit. But if the company is smart, they would realize that underpaying Mr H1B will cause him to quit upon green card receipt. So if they want to keep him they should pay market wage. And if they don't, then why would they sponsor the green card? But I'm sure there are cases of shortsighted managers underpaying the h1b person.

ThomasWong, it's true that the current H1b limit is lower. But to bring it back to the original question, it's not newly hired H1bs who buy property. It's the people who came earlier and are now in a point in their career where they can do it. The effect is surely variable by area - high in Cupertino, low in Los Gatos, even though those two places have similar median home prices.

And, I personally know a PRC resident who wired $50k to a brokerage account here. I don't know the ins and outs of how it works, but it can be done. here's some info
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/MDForum-viewtopic-t-96670.phtml
Seems that a PRC citizen can transfer $50k usd per year. Not enough to buy a house in CA, so maybe my statement is true but irrelevant to this question!

SF ace says

wow thomas, what don’t you understand, you can’t leave the company (handcuff) because there is an incentive (something golden), which is what a lot of H1B visa worker had to deal with.

Of course they can leave.. they get fired, terminated, downsized, reorged, transfered out etc etc.

SiO2 says

And, I personally know a PRC resident who wired $50k to a brokerage account here. I don’t know the ins and outs of how it works, but it can be done. here’s some info
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/MDForum-viewtopic-t-96670.phtml
Seems that a PRC citizen can transfer $50k usd per year. Not enough to buy a house in CA, so maybe my statement is true but irrelevant to this question!

LOL! Good luck on that one.

pkennedy says

It’s really only worth setting up a HQ in another country if you have a large enough need for it. If you’ve got 3-5 positions to fill, it’s really not worth it. Trying to manage a small number of people over such distances can be a real headache. Especially when there are cultural differences, and when those people aren’t involved directly in products all of the time.

They are not HQ, They are regional Sales offices operated as legal entity in order to do business on behalf of the Parent Company. Done everyday. Our typical sales staff in 12 other countries has anywhere from 1 to 5 sales people per each country. Some are bigger, like India 125. Typically you just rent out a Regus Office Suite (Rent an Office) on a month to month basis for a small staff. Runs for 500-1000 USD per month.

The sales people who do a lot better than Engineers since they log in sales and earn hefty sales/service commissions. The foreign sales team have no motivation into moving out of their sales territory and lose future sales commissions, which can be substantial.

pkennedy says

Unofficial/non meeting related conversations are often missed as well, leaving people in other locations blind. It really makes it difficult to get a lot of good work from those people then.
So having people come here, to work locally is very cost effective. I’ve worked with teams where people were flying back and forth all the time. People were having issues syncing up, time differences were causing headaches for all (6am meetings, or midnight meetings), etc.

LOL! I done that many times over every quarter with each of our foreign entities. That is the cost of doing business, otherwise its all emails. Once a year our world wide sales org has a kick off meeting, when all the teams come here for a beer bash and talk about Sales objectives.

from page B3 of today's San Jose Mercury News:

"Parents raising funds to save teacher jobs"

"A group of parents hoping to prevent more than 100 teachers in the Cupertino Union School DIstrict Union School from losing their jobs kicked off a massive fundraising campaign Tuesday at Nimitz Elementary School in Sunnyvale that attracted a packed and raucous house, including dozens of students with piggy banks ready to contribute to the cause".

"Parents organizing the 'Their Future is Now' campaign hope to raise $3 million by May 15 to save as many as 107 K-08 teachers from receiving pink slips."

California will be even cheaper once the Chinese currency appreciates.