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Car Dealers, Car Salesmen and Car Loans


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2023 Nov 21, 4:14pm   740 views  26 comments

by gabbar   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

I was talking with a couple of Toyota dealers since I am in the market to buy a Toyota Camry. And now this news comes out. Toyota Motor Credit did not admit any wrongdoing. Ed Napleton Automotive Group is still in business in Illinois.

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-orders-toyota-motor-credit-to-pay-60-million-for-illegal-lending-and-credit-reporting-misconduct/

The CFPB is ordering Toyota Motor Credit to stop its unlawful practices, pay $48 million to harmed consumers, and pay a $12 million penalty into the CFPB’s victims relief fund.

"Toyota's lending arm illegally withheld refunds, made borrowers run through obstacle courses to cancel unwanted services, and tarnished their credit reports," said CFPB Director Rohit Chopra. "Given the growing burdens of auto loan payments on Americans, we will continue to pursue large auto lenders that cheat their customers."

Toyota Motor Credit Corporation is the United States-based auto-financing arm of the Toyota Motor Corporation, and is headquartered in Plano, Texas. It is one of the largest indirect auto lenders in the United States, with nearly five million customer accounts and more than $135 billion in assets as of October 2022.

Toyota Motor Credit provides financing for consumers buying cars through Toyota dealerships, and also offers optional products and services sold with the vehicles. Dealerships often sell the products and services as a bundled package to consumers and then add them onto car loan contracts. Bundled products include Guaranteed Asset Protection (GAP), which covers the difference (or gap) between the amount a consumer owes on an auto loan and what their insurance pays if the vehicle is stolen, damaged, or totaled. Toyota Motor Credit also offers Credit Life and Accidental Health (CLAH) coverage, which covers the remaining balance if a borrower dies or becomes disabled, and vehicle service agreements, which reimburse borrowers for parts and service beyond what is covered by the manufacturer warranty.

The cost of the bundled products, financed by Toyota Motor Credit, averaged between $700 and $2,500 per loan. Including these products in a vehicle sale or lease can significantly increase the loan amount, monthly payment, and finance charge. Toyota Motor Credit profits from the sale of these products by collecting more finance charges on the increased loan amount.

Thousands of consumers complained to Toyota Motor Credit that dealers had lied about whether these products were mandatory, included them on contracts without the borrowers’ knowledge, or rushed through paperwork to hide buried terms. Nevertheless, Toyota Motor Credit devised a scheme to retain the revenue from these products by making it extremely cumbersome to cancel, and then failed to provide proper refunds for consumers who succeeded in cancelling. The company also falsely told consumer reporting companies that borrowers had missed payments, and it failed to correct consumer reporting errors it knew were wrong.

Also, here is another case from https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/04/ftc-takes-action-against-multistate-auto-dealer-napleton-sneaking-illegal-junk-fees-bills

The complaint against North American Automotive Services, Inc. (also known as Ed Napleton Automotive Group) alleges that eight of its dealerships and the general manager of two Illinois dealerships illegally tacked on junk fees for unwanted “add-on” products such as payment insurance and paint protection. The illegal junk fees cost consumers hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk fees for add-on products and services into consumers’ purchase contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees were often added despite consumers specifically declining the add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their vehicle.

A survey cited in the complaint showed that 83 percent of buyers from the dealerships were charged junk fees for add-ons without authorization or as a result of deception. One consumer cited in the complaint reported that the dealership located in Arlington Heights, Ill., charged him for nearly $4,000 in add-on fees after he’d paid a similar amount in down payment.

The complaint also alleges that the Napleton dealerships discriminated against Black consumers in connection with financing vehicle purchases. Napleton employees had wide latitude to increase the cost of a consumer’s loan by increasing the amount paid in interest or adding add-ons to the final contract.

According to the complaint, Black customers at the dealerships were charged approximately $190 more in interest and paid $99 more for similar add-ons than similarly situated non-Latino White customers.

Under the terms of the proposed settlement with the FTC and the State of Illinois, $9.95 million of the $10 million judgment will be used to provide monetary relief to consumers, and $50,000 will be paid to the Illinois Attorney General Court Ordered and Voluntary Compliance Payment Projects Fund.

Comments 1 - 26 of 26        Search these comments

1   RWSGFY   2023 Nov 21, 4:18pm  

True conservatives only pay cash.
2   HeadSet   2023 Nov 21, 5:38pm  

One should only get a loan on their first car, when just starting out. All subsequent cars should be brought cash.
3   ForcedTQ   2023 Nov 21, 8:10pm  

HeadSet says

One should only get a loan on their first car, when just starting out. All subsequent cars should be brought cash.

Whole heartedly agree. Depreciating asset that you shouldn’t spend more than 50% of take home pay for any and all that you have (things with wheels on them and engines/motors.) This way you make sure not to be car poor and are more likely to have money to invest for future income.
4   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 4:07am  

Bought a 2014 Toyota Avalon with 42k miles sedan recently for 15.5k plus tax. Took it to two mechanics for pre-purchase inspections. Both recommended I buy it. It has low profile tires, that's the only thing I don't like about it, stupid automobile engineers.
5   zzyzzx   2023 Nov 22, 5:20am  

gabbar says

I was talking with a couple of Toyota dealers since I am in the market to buy a Toyota Camry.


If you can, at the very least wait until late December, if not after the spring auto buying season.

I like to look at vehicles (online) and wouldn't buy a Toyota right now based on the crappy availability.
6   GNL   2023 Nov 22, 5:25am  

HeadSet says

One should only get a loan on their first car, when just starting out. All subsequent cars should be brought cash.

How many miles on it?
7   Tenpoundbass   2023 Nov 22, 5:28am  

China and the media is laughing at us. The media keeps talking about Chinas small $2,000 pick up trucks that Americans can't have.
Who wants a $1,000 a month car note?
9   zzyzzx   2023 Nov 22, 5:57am  

Toyota needs to bring back the L trim levels if they want me to even consider buying one. My reasoning being that the LE models have automatic climate control, and that's a deal breaker. For comparison purposes, the newer Chevrolet Trax base trim has manual climate controls and a regular automatic transmission, making it vastly superior to Toyota's offering which has unreliable things like a CVT and automatic climate control.
10   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 6:36am  

Tenpoundbass says

China and the media is laughing at us.

Chinese are not the world police, we are, that's the difference and we probably deserve to be laughed at, to some extent though I think there is a method to the madness in the United States of J
11   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 6:37am  

zzyzzx says

automatic climate control, and that's a deal breaker.

What's automatic climate control?
12   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 6:38am  

zzyzzx says


I like to look at vehicles (online) and wouldn't buy a Toyota right now based on the crappy availability.

I wish I could wait. My car became unsafe, didn't want to take any chances. I had to buy one. I hope I made a good choice, time will tell. I negotiated the asking price down by $3k. Two experienced mechanics can't be wrong, I hope.
13   zzyzzx   2023 Nov 22, 6:50am  

gabbar says

zzyzzx says


automatic climate control, and that's a deal breaker.

What's automatic climate control?


Something that automakers put in most cars to confuse owners as to if their vehicle's HVAC is working. Instead of a simple button to press for hot or cold and a hot/cold dial, automatic climate control is like having a thermostat (like what you have in your house) except for your vehicle. It adds extra parts which reduces reliability, and you are never sure if your A/C compressor is supposed to be on or off.
14   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 7:18am  

zzyzzx says

Something that automakers put in most cars to confuse owners as to if their vehicle's HVAC is working. Instead of a simple button to press for hot or cold and a hot/cold dial, automatic climate control is like having a thermostat (like what you have in your house) except for your vehicle. It adds extra parts which reduces reliability, and you are never sure if your A/C compressor is supposed to be on or off.

Sounds like a nonsense feature to me. The auto off/on at traffic signal stops seems like a bullshit feature to me.
15   gabbar   2023 Nov 22, 7:19am  

zzyzzx says

Toyota needs to bring back the L trim levels if they want me to even consider buying one.

L trim level doesn't have automatic climate control?
16   ForcedTQ   2023 Nov 22, 7:39am  

gabbar says

zzyzzx says


Something that automakers put in most cars to confuse owners as to if their vehicle's HVAC is working. Instead of a simple button to press for hot or cold and a hot/cold dial, automatic climate control is like having a thermostat (like what you have in your house) except for your vehicle. It adds extra parts which reduces reliability, and you are never sure if your A/C compressor is supposed to be on or off.

Sounds like a nonsense feature to me. The auto off/on at traffic signal stops seems like a bullshit feature to me.

Yep, ASS in most implementations Sucks. A feature that annoys most drivers more than it saves on fuel. Luckily many cars offer a way to turn it off, although you have to purposefully do it each time you start them.
17   RayAmerica   2023 Nov 22, 8:57am  

I never spent much money on cars (learned that lesson from my Father), but instead, looked for ways to invest my 'car money' into other venues which would hopefully turn out to be positive. My Father also told me 'if a car is treating you well, keep it.' I've practiced that principle my entire life and it has paid off exponentially.

My current car is a 2003 Saturn VUE with 160,000 miles. I bought it new for my wife and it has been a great vehicle with no major problems at all, and, with its plastic side panels, it looks almost new. Every 3-4,000 miles, I change the oil with Castrol Edge High milage full synthetic (highly recommend that oil) ... it doesn't burn a drop.

The moral of the story; don't throw away potential investment revenues on a depreciating item, unless you can afford to take the loss. I can afford any car that I want, and yet, I am still driving an old car because it has been dependable, and, worked out to be a good investment due to its longevity.
18   RWSGFY   2023 Nov 22, 9:08am  

Tenpoundbass says


China and the media is laughing at us. The media keeps talking about Chinas small $2,000 pick up trucks that Americans can't have.


These are not trucks in the common sense of the word - more like shitty golf carts.

Isuzu makes $15K crew cab D-max in Thailand: these are simple robust decent trucks w/o stupid bells and whistles. I doubt it's possible to make a real pickup truck for much less than that nowadays. $2K? No way, Jose.
19   gabbar   2024 Jan 18, 7:34am  

I have a teenager who is learning car driving. I am thinking about buying a car through my llc in Ohio and let the teenager drive this car. Will this protect my personal assets from potential accident related lawsuits since the car will be titled under the name of the llc?
20   just_passing_through   2024 Jan 18, 8:39am  

HeadSet says

One should only get a loan on their first car, when just starting out. All subsequent cars should be brought cash.


You'll pay more that way. Get your own financing, offer to let them finance it IF they can beat it AND they show you the buy rate. Make sure there are no pre-payment penalties or it's only something like $250.

Then just pay the loan off right away.

The last thing a dealer wants to hear is you want to pay cash. Then they assume they won't be able to make any money on the loan or up-charge you in the finance office.

(don't accept any of the extra bullshit finance tries to get you to buy and say no to BS fees like 'lot fees' for it just sitting there etc.,.)

Also make sure you have the out-the-door price before going into finance. I would also ask for my drivers license (if they held it) after a test drive before you start any negotiations. That way you can get up and walk right the fuck out if they are trying to tire you out.
21   NuttBoxer   2024 Jan 18, 8:41am  

gabbar says

I have a teenager who is learning car driving. I am thinking about buying a car through my llc and let the teenager drive this car. Will this protect my personal assets from potential accident related lawsuits since the car will be titled under the name of the llc?


Where was it created? New Mexico used to be the place, but Wyoming is your best bet for protecting your privacy. Is there an address you can be reached at registered to the LLC? A phone number, your real name? Any of that information makes it possible to serve you.

Nice benefit of an LLC with family assets, if you want to transfer the car to someone else in the family, no need to visit the DMV, as owner is still LLC.
22   NuttBoxer   2024 Jan 18, 8:42am  

My current car is my newest, '98 Civic. Bought it about three years ago. Needed rear brakes, and head gasket replacement, that's it so far. Also the most money I've spent on a car, $3,000. I've never taken a car loan, ever.
23   zzyzzx   2024 Jan 18, 8:56am  

gabbar says

zzyzzx says


Toyota needs to bring back the L trim levels if they want me to even consider buying one.

L trim level doesn't have automatic climate control?

Lower trim models often do not yes.
24   zzyzzx   2024 Jan 18, 9:00am  

ForcedTQ says

Yep, ASS in most implementations Sucks. A feature that annoys most drivers more than it saves on fuel. Luckily many cars offer a way to turn it off, although you have to purposefully do it each time you start them.


There are often ways to permanently turn it off. On a Ford you can do this with ForScan, or just by unplugging a coil that goes around your negative battery cable near the battery. On other vehicles you cna buy a module to permanently turn it off or pay someone to do a tune.
25   GNL   2024 Jan 18, 10:09am  

NuttBoxer says


My current car is my newest, '98 Civic. Bought it about three years ago. Needed rear brakes, and head gasket replacement, that's it so far. Also the most money I've spent on a car, $3,000. I've never taken a car loan, ever.

My last 3 cars were bought cash from private sellers. There's a sweet spot for age/mileage of cars where you get best value. I've found that to be in the $10,000 to $12,000 ish range. One of our current vehicles is a 1 owner 2013 Toyota Camry. We paid $11,800 and it had less than 50,000 miles on it. I expect to get 300,000 miles out of it.
26   NuttBoxer   2024 Jan 18, 11:19am  

The first car I bought was $1,900 Accord '92. One previous owner, I actually knew the mechanic who'd done most of the service on it. Put 200,000 miles on it before an issue I should have caught put it out of commission. Current car has about 175k, although I did see a note about the speedometer possibly be tampered with, so hard to say for sure. What I know is that we routinely drive it from Arizona to California without issue. If you know the climb out of the desert, that says something.

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