patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

your conception of god, is incompatible with science.

What is my conception of God?

@richwicks did answer pretty much.
Try to understand that the people who believe in God, DO have conclusions for everything related to god and trying to find the facts to support the conclusions. Where as rational/atheist people look at the data, facts and come to conclusions.
Perhaps its hard for you to understand that its a one way path to become atheist.
When it comes to morality, atheist are much more nice compare to religious people.
I'd suggest do not waste your time to convince rational people to believe God stuff.
Do not feel guilty that you are not able to convince either, just be happy for your self.

Bitcoiner says

I love my life and I try to enjoy every minute of it

Good. If you are not enjoying life, you’re doing it wrong.

I know several pastors. None of them live high on the hog. But certainly there are many pastors who do it for the wrong reasons. Basically if God did not call them, they are a hireling (working for pay rather than working for God. I’d venture to guess that at best 50% of the pastors and other staff were put there by the calling of God. The rest do the work for other reasons, even if they fool themselves or others into believing otherwise.

Rubicon says

Let me me know what you come up with.

Yes counting the years from Adam to Jesus is about 4,000. Add 2 more grand and that puts us somewhere around 5993 years since the Garden of Eden.

Blue says

When it comes to morality, atheist are much more nice compare to religious people.

I don't know if this is true, however it's a red flag is somebody constantly talks about how religious they are. Somebody that is a scumbag will use their SUPPOSED belief in religion as a mask for the immorality.

I think there are plenty of atheists that claim to be religious. Just about every televangelist is an atheist. Deeply cynical people.

you guys know little about faith. you have to live in a place of faith to understand it. what you see in a big city is superficial for most part.

Rubicon says

And do you think dinosaurs are also only 6000 years old and were on Noah’s ark?

Lizards grow and grow the longer they live in general. But the eggs were relatively small and so babies were no bigger than a cat. I see no reason they were not on the Ark.
Most of the fossils of those beasts are in the same layers because they were buried during the catastrophic flood when the fountains of the deep and perhaps the water canopy that used to cover the earth (protecting the surface from harmful radiation) was broken up. Pangea broke up at this catastrophic event as well pushing up mountains and forming the continents. It was the most catastrophic even the world had ever seen and God gave the rainbow after that (did not exist before the flood due to extremely different atmospheric conditions) as a promise that he’d never destroy the Entire world again with water.

I don't ever recall the Bible saying that Earth is 6000 years old. That is something that religious people believed when pushing back at the Scientists that said man evolved from monkeys and the Universe was billions of years old. Even the Bible isn't meant to be taken as Literary work. Finding fault in the writings of men, which the Bible certainly is.. Isn't proof that God exists or not.

Tenpoundbass says

Even the Bible isn't meant to be taken as Literary work.

The Word of God spoke the world into existence. Hearing the Word of God is the only way to have faith. It is not a work of man. It Is Life.

Dating methods are imprecise. Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness. Everything else is a best guess when it comes to dating, and even then there are many assumptions built in (because there are not eyewitness of every detail that could impact the assumptions made about conditions over many years).

If there were no rainbows before the flood, and therefore no rain, and if humans lived hundreds of years during the antediluvian period, it stands to reason that our planet and species has undergone dramatic changes that are not elaborated on in history or science books.

When these details are ignored, incorrect assumptions are made and dating estimates become even more flawed.

But I do give the scientists you mentioned credit, their estimates are a lot more reasonable than others I heard. And at the very least the dating methods do give us good ideas of relative age even if their actual age estimates are inaccurate.

As far as the ice age I’ve heard two possiblity. One possibility is that during the flood catastrophe ice fell from the sky in the northern regions (which would explain the multiple wooly mammoths found frozen in ice standing up with vegetation in their stomachs that is NOT from tundra regions that the mammoths were found in (in other words they were flash frozen and the climate in that region instantly changed going from temperate to tundra after the flood/melt). Another possibility would be that after the flood the ice age occurred. We know at one time there was a land bridge between Asia and North America for example and after the tower of Babel God may have changed the climate to force the different tribes to keep moving, Catastrophic snow storms could have buried those mammoths too (snow storms the likes of which we have never seen. In the Bible in one of the genealogy reviews tells of a time during Peleg’s life in which the earth was divided which seems to be a reference to the changes that occurred after God broke up the Tower of Babel venture.

Why not?
https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/when-was-the-ice-age-in-biblical-history/

PeopleUnited says

Dating methods are imprecise. Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness

No, what you said is incorrect.

We don't have 1 or 2 dating methods, we have dozens and they overlap.

https://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

Don’t put word in my mouth. You must have misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Of course there are several dating methods. They are all imprecise and based on multiple assumptions.

This is what I said. And it is an accurate description of fact.

richwicks says

Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness.

This is why dating models are wrong, just like climate models. They are trying to explain something that has too many variables to accurately account for, leading to terribly flawed predictions.

Amazing Discoveries in Uranus.

PeopleUnited says

Don’t put words in my mouth. Of course there are several dating methods. They are all imprecise and based on multiple assumptions.

I'm not trying to strawman you. I gave you that link because it's written by a very religious Christian physicist that has a minor in geology.

I do not what to attack your religion - what I'm telling you is we're very certain the world is at least a billion years old, that radiation is a constant in breakdown of molecules - we have very good knowledge about limited things, but our dating methods aren't "imprecise" and they don't make any assumptions other than the world didn't radically change in the last few thousand years. That's the one assumption you make, but if nuclear breakdown is slowing down, we would have seen it in the last 60 years since we've had atomic clocks for that long.

Read that article I sent you, and you will see what precision we've got. I never understood how the age of rocks was measured until I read it. Basically, lava will release gases when it's in a liquid state, when it solidifies, it has SOME amount of radioactive materials in it, and as it breaks down it produces gasses, which are trapped in solid rock. The age of the rock is determined by how much gas is released when it's melted again, from a known isotope.

We are just in different places. You might wonder (or are convinced you know) what consciousness is, and how the universe works, I however wonder how an atom can even come into existence. It appears that the "Big Bang" is incorrect, and we find more and more evidence this is wrong continually. It's amazing not only that I can write this, but atoms exist all to me. How does MATTER even exist? I believe that the Universe, or some form of it, must be eternal. It's not a rare thought to believe the Universe itself, is God. Is it sentient? I don't know. And then there's the argument about "what is God?" If the definition is that which created us, yeah, certainly it's God.

Science itself is the undertaking to understand God and it may be an impossible task, and probably is. We as a species may become incredibly powerful over time, but we will NEVER be Gods. I'm staring into the abyss. Done that a lot with a lot of things.

I don’t understand why people want to defend literal interpretations of the most ancient prehistoric biblical stories.

The Bible is great. It’s a story of extremely flawed people who all probably deserve to be killed in a flood. Yet God loves them so much that after spending thousands of years trying to save them, sends his only Son to show us how to be better and to even die for us.

The fact that Adam and Eve or Noah might not have ever literally existed takes nothing away from the main point of the Bible which is that humans are incredibly flawed, and yet God still loves us.

To make arguments that human reason can’t possibly disprove certain stories in the Bible, just purely out of defense, insults humans and insults the God who created us.

Rubicon says

Great paper this guy wrote there. Thanks for sharing. Did you just randomly find this by searching the web?

I used to be an incredibly rabid atheist so I found that to demolish the claims of Creationists. There was a point I saw religion as an incredible evil.

I found blind faith incredibly dangerous, and I still do, but it's everywhere. How many people die because of our wars? It's all the same. There's just a lot of people that need blind faith in one form or another. I came to realize that 10 years ago

It's depressing.

Evil seems to be a real force to deal with.

richwicks says

we're very certain the world is at least a billion years old

No, you are very certain. And many people including the only person the matters, Jesus Christ are certain that in the end times many will scoff at the Biblical truth. Your denial of universally known truths of the creation is Bible prophecy fulfilled.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

we're very certain the world is at least a billion years old

No, you are very certain. And many people including the only person the matters, Jesus Christ are certain that in the end times many will scoff at the Biblical truth. Your denial of universally known truths of the creation is Bible prophecy fulfilled.

I would have fought you tooth and nail just 15 years ago. This isn't like climate change, which IS a lie. The climate change model is wrong, it's been proven wrong over and over again, it can't make predictions, it doesn't work. I used to wonder how people could work in "climate change", they don't, it's all politics. Who is the "most famous climate scientist"? Name ONE.

The Bible craps on me like Democrats do, or Neocons do. I'll believe anything, IF I can understand it. Evolution is pretty easy to understand, so is radiometric dating, but "climate change", suddenly it's "super complex and you can only run it on this massive machine that costs billions of dollars, and the source data is secret and deleted, and it's not available".

When I was 30 I had a lousy bullshit detector. I have great one now. Every war we've been is bullshit, this pandemic is bullshit,

Something that hardens my viewpoint of Christianity is BECAUSE people insist there was a literal Adam and Eve, and there WAS a Job, and there WAS a King David, and there WAS a Biblical Flood. No. Way. These are just stories.

richwicks says

I found blind faith incredibly dangerous

Me too, which is why the evidence is essential. Only in the past couple hundred years have humans been foolish enough to believe stories invented by people who have decided to reject God and create a mythology of billions of years. As if a scientist can reconstruct history without any actual eye witness or written record. Secular Scholars generally agree that the earliest forms of writing were 5,500 years ago. Which is not far off from the time of the world wide flood.

So these people who reject God, think that the observation period of humans, ~6,000 years (the time humans have been here to observe and record events, conditions, changes, etc...

6,000÷440,000,000,000=0.0000000136363636364

So with all of written/observed history, being 0.0000000136363636364% of what they claim to be earth history. It’s blind faith to believe those charlatans who don’t even practice science. They might as well say aliens created the earth because they have about the same amount of evidence of that as they do of an earth that predates human observation.

PeopleUnited says

Secular Scholars generally agree that the earliest forms of writing were 5,500 years ago. Which is not far off from the time of the world wide flood.

Göbekli Tepe messes up a lot of what we think we know.

PeopleUnited says

So with all of written/observed history, being 0.0000000136363636364% of what they claim to be earth history. It’s blind faith to believe those charlatans who don’t even practice science. They might as well say aliens created the earth because they have about the same amount of evidence of that as they do of an earth that predates human observation.

I just don't want to argue but it's not just the Earth, it's the Universe - it's fucking big. I mean unimaginably big, literally unimaginable.

richwicks says

Something that hardens my viewpoint of Christianity is BECAUSE people insist there was a literal Adam and Eve, and there WAS a Job, and there WAS a King David, and there WAS a Biblical Flood. No. Way. These are just stories.

You want them to be stories, because you don’t want to believe ANY of the Bible. But if any of the Bible is untrue, then God is a liar. Fortunately He cannot lie. That’s good news because it means John 3:16 is true.

2 Peter Chapter 3
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

PeopleUnited says

You want them to be stories, because you don’t want to believe ANY of the Bible. But if any of the Bible is untrue, then God is a liar. Fortunately He cannot lie.

The Bible isn't proof of the Bible.

The Bible is NOT the world of God.

God doesn't lie, but man often does.

I cannot be indoctrinated into the Bible again. I was falling out of it as a kid, as I started to see contradictions to it. I'm very resistant to propaganda, I'm extremely strong willing in my thinking. This is why I had no problem calling our "pandemic" a fraud, or saying that Ukraine was overthrown and it's almost unimaginable that Ukraine will win, it's why I can freely talk about Libya being a disaster, or that we were lied into Iraq.

I can't think of a time I was last fooled by US propaganda. Oh, actually I can, I believed in the global warming bullshit until 2005, I just couldn't believe they would destroy their credibility, but they did - and people STILL believe. The last time I fell for propaganda was Operation Desert Storm.

I view the Bible in EXACTLY the same way and I can't change that.

richwicks says

God doesn't lie, but man often does.

Yep like when they claim the earth/universe is billions of years old.
They lie, a lot.

So that is the propaganda you still believe.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

God doesn't lie, but man often does.

Yep like when they claim the earth/universe is billions of years old.
They lie, a lot.

So that is the propaganda you still believe.

No, I understand it. I understand how it's calculated.

I understand the speed of light, I know it's true because I've had to deal with it in engineering with Doppler shifts. Civil engineers need to deal with the curvature of the Earth in large projects, like roads.

Climate "science" I never understood, I just didn't believe they could possibly be lying, and they were.

If I spent the time to talk to you, explain my position, and turn you into an atheist or at least a non believer in Christianity, how would this profit you or me? 15 years ago, I would have legitimately seen you as an unthinking dangerous threat - well, there's way worse than you. There are atheists today, that simply atheists, because they DECIDED to become an atheist. That's not me. I was dragged to it as an inescapable conclusion, HOWEVER, I exist. That's very strange. It's VERY strange ANYTHING exists.

So I'm not numb to the idea there's some sort of god, but we have different ideas of what that would mean. Something created all this shit, but I have no confidence it's intelligent, I don't know if it's eternal, but it's very weird, but the Christian mythology, it's identical to me as any other religion.

There's this idea in the Dharmic religions that everything that lives is a part of god, and when it dies, it returns to that body of god. This means that all the pain and conflict and kindness and love we'll all experience we all literally experience. You'll be stuck being me, I'll be stuck being you and time isn't linear at all and there's no freewill at all. I'll have to be Joe Biden, MLK, Jeffrey Dhamer, everything. In the Dharmic religions often the idea of Nirvana is non existence, that existence is just pain.

You look for eternal life, I wouldn't want that. Seriously, I don't fear oblivion, but existence forever? That's true hell. There's a reason they call it eternal rest.

Rubicon says

“ Göbekli Tepe messes up a lot of what we think we know.”

This!
That site broke history.

Well, if we're not being fed bullshit about it. Perhaps the site is only 3,000 years old and carbon dating at the site was falsified. Who knows?

If I've learned anything in the last 30 years, it's been about scientific fraud.

But it does make a mystery. I think it's quite possible that we aren't the first advanced civilization on the planet, but I have no guesses as to what sort of advanced civilization existed before us. I know recent history has been falsified, particularly about WWII and the US Civil War. I don't know why, but there is certainly a concerted effort to feed us shit and keep us in the dark. It's bizarre how much effort there is to keep the population ignorant.

Rubicon says

Christians that don’t take the Bible literally

That is any oxymoron. Christian means Christ follower or Christ like. Here is just some of what Jesus taught about the power and accuracy of the Word: “In light of Jesus’ teaching, there’s no question he considered the entire Old Testament to be the inerrant, written Word of God. He said he came to fulfill the entire Jewish Old Testament (Matt. 5:17), which he referred to as “the Law and the Prophets” (Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:26–27). And he told the Jews, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39–40).”

They are creating a one world religion, gathering together Islam, “Christianity “, Judaism and even Buddhism and mixing in modern mythology. https://www.cnn.com/style/article/uae-abrahamic-family-house-david-adjaye-intl/index.html Many people will be joining this movement led by the Pope. But make no mistake, if you don’t know that the Word of God is pure, true and more powerful than can be imagined, then you have missed the meaning. God help anyone who can claim Christianity as a label but deny the Christ that founded it.

Here is the Chrislam red crescent cross put out by the Vatican. They are preparing the world for the one world religion under the new world order.

richwicks says

You look for eternal life, I wouldn't want that. Seriously, I don't fear oblivion, but existence forever? That's true hell. There's a reason they call it eternal rest.

This is why the lake of fire is actually created. It would be more uncomfortable for someone who doesn’t believe God to have to live with Him for eternity, than it will be for them to be eternally separate from God. But if you shudder at the thought of eternity, it is only because you don’t understand that you already have an eternal soul. Eternal rest is a myth. You were put on this earth, at this time (a blip on the eternal realm/plane) for one reason, the pleasure of God. Because we are all sinners after our ancestor Adam’s fall, it pleases him to save those who will be saved giving them a new body uncorrupted by sin at the soon resurrection of the dead, and it is His righteous duty to judge those who reject His plan of forgiveness. He wrote the law and He must enforce it. Everyone in the lake of fire created for the devil and his angels will know that is where they belong, and if they could they would warn everyone they care about to avoid that fate. That is what Jesus taught.

But I tend to agree that people who reject God would be better off in the lake of fire than living eternity in the presence of the one they rejected. Rejecting God (which is what you do when you ignore Gods word) is a self inflicted punishment.

Some have speculated that God made the perfect number of angels, and when a third of them joined Satan in rebellion against God, He created man to replace the fallen ones giving Him a way to repopulate Heaven with those who freely choose to serve Him. But that is speculation since the numbers of angels and truely Godborn believers is not known in this temporal plane. But we do know it is a lot!

richwicks says

Who is the "most famous climate scientist"? Name ONE

Michael Mann, the hockey stick dude


We should get wet bulbed any day now.

PeopleUnited says

if any of the Bible is untrue, then God is a liar

The Bible was written and rewritten by man.

It is what it is.

Rubicon says

Fear is the number one tool to control and manipulate people.

Will you take the mark of the beast when the Antichrist forces everyone to take it or lose their head by guillotine?

Onvacation says

The Bible was written and rewritten by man.

The men who wrote the scriptures were like the guys on the assembly line following Fords blueprint. The Word of God is His blueprint.

Rubicon says

Richwicks,
Have you ever looked into the theory that the Egyptians didn’t build the pyramids and that the pyramids are much older than what mainstream historians believe? And that the purpose of pyramids was to generate energy? The concept aligns with Tesla’s research.
It’s fascinating and makes a lot more sense than Egyptians building pyramids.

It's been long speculated the pyramids are far older than what we are told, I heard this 40 years ago, and the Spinx certainly looks like it was being washed by water for a period of time.

I'm very doubtful it was some sort of energy generator - although I've heard that as well but I can't see how it could possibly generate energy or what form that would be.

Rubicon says

You probably know more about G T than I do.

Probably I don't actually. I know about it, I know it flips human history on its head and that's about it. Supposedly other similar sites have been found.

What's WEIRD is we're still finding abandoned cities in south America.

Another thing that is strange is there's S. American pyramids. I think it strongly indicates a world wide culture. There's also maps that recorded the existence of Antarctica. I don't think we have a complete understanding of our history.

PeopleUnited says

This is why the lake of fire is actually created. It would be more uncomfortable for someone who doesn’t believe God to have to live with Him for eternity

And there's always this threat in Christianity and I find it beyond annoying, it's almost abusive to teach a child that Hell exists, and you will be eternally tortured for your lack of absolute subservience.

There was a religious sect that believed that there was the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, and the Old Testament god was evil. There's compelling reasons to think this. There were one of the first victims of the Inquisition.

I cannot believe that literal creator of the Universe is so petty, so cruel, as to torture ANYTHING for ever. If I believed there was a God like that, I would oppose it.

Rubicon says

I think the main reason is we are so occupied with making money and consuming. There is no mainstream push to explore our history and mainstream historians have no interest in being proven wrong and having to re-write history books. Plus imagine Tesla was right and there is a way to produce clean energy for the masses. The people in power would never allow it. Or energy companies would just buy you out and destroy that knowledge.

The amount of energy we consume can be drastically reduced and has been. Do you have any idea how crazy it is that I can run a cell phone off from a USB port on my computer? It's a 2 way radio. Just 20 years ago, a standard television was so inefficient, it heated the room. Cars are stupidly inefficient, and could made FAR more efficient, but it requires higher tech to make them safe - basically an accident at 70 MPH is death in one of those, but you could get 150 MPG.

Rubicon says

PeopleUnited says

Rubicon says

Fear is the number one tool to control and manipulate people.

Will you take the mark of the beast when the Antichrist forces everyone to take it or lose their head by guillotine?

The only way to lose your head is being involved with religious brainwashing/manipulation and fear mongering.

Sounds like you are afraid. Afraid of taking God at His word. It is a very likely possibility that those alive today, who are not part of the catching away rescue similar to the Noah’s ark rescue, will live to see the Antichrist and know what real fear is.

richwicks says

er. If I believed there was a God like that, I would oppose it.

You do.

pudil says

The fact that Adam and Eve or Noah might not have ever literally existed takes nothing away from the main point of the Bible which is that humans are incredibly flawed, and yet God still loves us.

To make arguments that human reason can’t possibly disprove certain stories in the Bible, just purely out of defense, insults humans and insults the God who created us.

If God loves us (He does) He would not tell untrue stories.