patrick.net

Patrick says

This is deceptive.

I don't know if this is the proper answer, because we don't know. Models of the Big Bang are wrong, it's called "the crisis in cosmology", but that doesn't imply a god.

Ignorance has always been the justification to claim god exists. Whatever could have possibly created god, could have created us and if you define "god" as that which created us, there is of course a god.

Isn't it weird anything exists at all? Existence, when you REALLY think about it, that's amazingly strange. That ANYTHING exists is bizarre. If there IS a god, I don't think IT even understands how it came into existence. How could it? It's so weird anything exists at all.

People really do not understand or appreciate how bizarre it is that we exist and can think and do anything, at all. What created existence? What even created matter or even energy? How does this universe even exist? It's unfathomable. You can question why YOU exist all your life, why does a proton exist? How is existence even possible? What makes an atom or a proton exist? How does even existence exist of any sort - doesn't have to be intelligent or alive, how does matter or energy exist?

So incredibly weird. Religious people can skip this step, I cannot. How does anything exist at all? We have no idea and are likely never to.

If the Divine is eternal then it does not require a beginning or a creator. The same could be said about the Universe.

However, in my layman's understanding, the Universe is thought to have a beginning therefore something was before it.

richwicks says

Ignorance has always been the justification to claim god exists.

This is a lie. We know God exists because he literally breathed life into our lungs (Adam) and told us the whole of human history including our future in His word.
You can read it for yourself. Copied below is the final few verses.

“And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:10-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/rev.22.10-21.kjv

PeopleUnited says

This is a lie. We know God exists because he literally breathed life into our lungs (Adam) and told us the whole of human history including our future in His word.
You can read it for yourself. Copied below is the final few verses.

We know nothing. The Bible was written by men.

I have said many times to you if there is a god and if it wants us to understand it, it would be innate within our mind.

I reject all religions with any doctrine. It would have to be knowable within every creature, not just human

Patrick says

St. Thomas Aquinas proofs of God boiled down to a meme. Love it.

richwicks says

PeopleUnited says

This is a lie. We know God exists because he literally breathed life into our lungs (Adam) and told us the whole of human history including our future in His word.
You can read it for yourself. Copied below is the final few verses.

We know nothing. The Bible was written by men.

I have said many times to you if there is a god and if it wants us to understand it, it would be innate within our mind.

I reject all religions with any doctrine. It would have to be knowable within every creature, not just human

Why does your God require that his will be known innately? I’d argue that if you had perfect knowledge of God and his will, you would have limited free will of your own since you wouldn’t dare to violate the all good, all knowing will of the creator.

worst part is… no milk!!!

We got to save the galaxy, we need more Liberal policies that will pass laws that will force people to change they way they behave and preserve the galaxy for future generations. The Galaxy simply can't last with so many cars on the road, and farting cows. If we can save just one Alien's life it will be worth it.
How dare you!

People that don't believe in God, but entertain that any and every Science Fiction scenario as plausible.. Are a special kind of stupid.

Let's be careful to separate religion and the belief in God. Religion is a man made construct with the primary purpose of controlling (civilizing) a population while God is above and beyond that.

I've yet to see any theory that satisfies me to explain how we went from void to walmart. What is unknown and perhaps unknowable I ascribe to being divine - an act of God. No matter how many trillions of years you throw at me I will never believe you can get homo sapien from a chunk of mineral or sliver of protein.

I also see a place for religion - because I don't believe people are born with a moral and ethical compass. In many cases it must be taught. This wouldn't be an issue if the average IQ was 130, but it's closer to 100 with -3 sigma down in the high 70's or low 80's. At that end of the spectrum you are just a step above an animal and religion is a great tool for keeping that bunch in check.

The moment scientists start with models and bayesian inference, we must remember that with neo-spontaneous generation of Life on Earth, or the Birth of the Universe, they have a sample size of less than 1 due to very, very limited information about HOW it happened. They have a rough idea about when it happened, that's it. Everything else assumed is ex rectum conjecture with modelling biased by the naturalistic assumption.

stfu says

Religion is a man made construct with the primary purpose of controlling (civilizing) a population while God is above and beyond that.

Religion is the part of culture by which a people's perception of the divine is taught. Most practitioners of religion find some benefit in it, otherwise they wouldn't do it (except for the religion that kills you for apostasy).

stfu says

I also see a place for religion - because I don't believe people are born with a moral and ethical compass. In many cases it must be taught. This wouldn't be an issue if the average IQ was 130, but it's closer to 100 with -3 sigma down in the high 70's or low 80's. At that end of the spectrum you are just a step above an animal and religion is a great tool for keeping that bunch in check.

Excellent observation. Do you think there is any other way to make the unthinking masses moral?

stfu says

I've yet to see any theory that satisfies me to explain how we went from void to walmart. What is unknown and perhaps unknowable I ascribe to being divine - an act of God. No matter how many trillions of years you throw at me I will never believe you can get homo sapien from a chunk of mineral or sliver of protein.

Every credible Astrophysicist eventually believes in God, the more they study and understand the cosmos.

Both Steven Hawking and Carl Sagan both have said that the Universe is proof that God exists.

The paradox of space and nothing can and will never be explained by science.
Nothing is something, if there was nothing before, where did the room for everything else come from. A void is still something.
Nothing and trying to understand it, is a greater mind blowing mystery than our Universe or even the vastness of it.
Even God would have had to come from nothing. Long before he got bored and created the heavens and the earth.
Is nothing impossible, does nothing create something, because nothing is impossible. Does nothing create more nothing and in that process it mutates into something?

The vastness of nothing even at close range to objects is limitless.

Take an object, at a set distance from another object. It can be a million miles away or just one centimeter.
Split the distance in half, so that 1 centimeter becomes half a centimeter. Theoretically you could do that for infinity and never reach the object. Splitting that half a centimeter into a quarter centimeter and so on. That's how vast nothing is even when all available space seems occupied by objects.

Bitcoiner says

How do you know every word of the Bible is true?

The Word of God is living and active, it is not words, it is the Word. If you don’t understand that you have missed the forest for the trees.

Also remember the very first thing Satan did was question the veracity of God’s word.Bitcoiner says

When you answer questions with verses out of your book, it’s not really a discussion. It’s more like trolling.

It’s not my book, it’s God’s word. When you make blanket accusations, or dismiss the veracity of God’s word (falsely equating it with corrupt man’s words) it’s not just trolling, it is lying.

If your words are able to speak the universe into existence, to divide the soul and the spirit and give eternal life then let’s hear them. Until then I will continue to quote the words of life, the Bible. Only a fool would call quoted Bible verses trolling.

Tenpoundbass says

Take an object, at a set distance from another object. It can be a million miles away or just one centimeter.
Split the distance in half, so that 1 centimeter becomes half a centimeter. Theoretically you could do that for infinity and never reach the object. Splitting that half a centimeter into a quarter centimeter and so on. That's how vast nothing is even when all available space seems occupied by objects.

Here we go again - to paraphrase Carol King, doesn't anyone study mathematics and infinite series anymore?

https://ibmathsresources.com/2018/11/30/zenos-paradox-achilles-and-the-tortoise-2/#:~:text=Mathematically%20we%20can%20express%20this,%2F4%20%2B%201%2F8%20%E2%80%A6&text=This%20shows%20that%20the%20summation,that%20remained%202%20metres%20away.

Zeno’s Paradox – Achilles and the Tortoise

This is a very famous paradox from the Greek philosopher Zeno – who argued that a runner (Achilles) who constantly halved the distance between himself and a tortoise would never actually catch the tortoise. The video above explains the concept.

There are two slightly different versions to this paradox. The first version has the tortoise as stationary, and Achilles as constantly halving the distance, but never reaching the tortoise (technically this is called the dichotomy paradox). The second version is where Achilles always manages to run to the point where the tortoise was previously, but by the time he reaches that point the tortoise has moved a little bit further away.

Dichotomy Paradox

The first version we can think of as follows:

Say the tortoise is 2 metres away from Achilles. Initially Achilles halves this distance by travelling 1 metre. He halves this distance again by travelling a further 1/2 metre. Halving again he is now 1/4 metres away. This process is infinite, and so Zeno argued that in a finite length of time you would never actually reach the tortoise. Mathematically we can express this idea as an infinite summation of the distances travelled each time:

1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 …

Now, this is actually a geometric series – which has first term a = 1 and common ratio r = 1/2. Therefore we can use the infinite summation formula for a geometric series (which was derived about 2000 years after Zeno!):

sum = a/(1-r)

sum = 1/(1-0.5)

sum = 2

This shows that the summation does in fact converge – and so Achilles would actually reach the tortoise that remained 2 metres away. There is still however something of a sleight of hand being employed here however – given an infinite length of time we have shown that Achilles would reach the tortoise, but what about reaching the tortoise in a finite length of time? Well, as the distances get ever smaller, the time required to traverse them also gets ever closer to zero, so we can say that as the distance converges to 2 metres, the time taken will also converge to a finite number.

There is an alternative method to showing that this is a convergent series:

S = 1+ 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + …

0.5S = 1/2+ 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + …

S – 0.5S = 1

0.5S = 1

S = 2

Here we notice that in doing S – 0.5S all the terms will cancel out except the first one.

Bitcoiner says

Imagine a world without religion: no crusades, no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no witch hunts, no israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/croat/Muslim massacres, no honor killings, no persecution of Jews as “Christ-killers” and no shiny-suited bouffant haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money. Because, “god wants you to give till it hurts”.

This is simply a failure to understand human psychology. You really think atrocity ends with religion? Or is it possible that people will grasp onto any excuse to justify their bloodlust and greed? People demanded I "trust the science" while denying me the right to work.

Bitcoiner says

Imagine a world without religion: no crusades, no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no witch hunts, no israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/croat/Muslim massacres, no honor killings, no persecution of Jews as “Christ-killers” and no shiny-suited bouffant haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money. Because, “god wants you to give till it hurts”.

DhammmaStep is right.

The Israeli / Palestinian conflict is NOT over religion. It's over land. Religion is the excuse we are given. It's basically two ethnic groups, the Jewish group is actually SEVERAL ethnic groups but the power base is the Ashkenazi - they run Israel almost exclusively.

Muslim / Christian conflicts like in the Crusades were over POWER and land, not religion. The RCC is incredibly wealthy, the religion is about power, and money == power.

I agree, there are evils in religion certainly - the fake televangelists are just awful people.

But there's good in religion as well, unity for one. France wouldn't have been taken over, if there was unity against the government. Their primary religion is faith in the government. That's a real evil for certain but not for the Muslims there. France is lost. It just collapsed last night.

Bitcoiner says

Come on now. Those riots are nothing new in Europe. Remember what happened when cartoons of prophet Mohammed appeared in Denmark and all of Europe’s cities burned shortly after?

We'll see, perhaps I'm jumping the gun here, but I think France is over.

stereotomy says

sum = 2

Then there is that pesky Planck length.

Bitcoiner says

Dude, where do you get your beliefs from?
How do you come up with this stuff:
“ Muslim / Christian conflicts like in the Crusades were over POWER and land, not religion.”

It’s all about religion. It’s written in their book.

You're just not cynical enough to see it. Religions are tools of political power. The RCC SAID that the Inquisition was about saving souls, and many may have even believed that, but it wasn't - it was to get people to obey and tithe. Missionary work is to increase political power.

Bitcoiner says

It’s all about religion. It’s written in their book.

Dude, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam ALL call for the persecution of non believers, because it's in the old Testament. ALL Abrahamic religions teach hatred of anybody that isn't in the same faith.

Nearly all religions are political tools and nothing more. If Palestinians were ALL Christian, do you think the US would support Israel so easily? What

Bitcoiner says

denying you the right to work isn’t as bad as burning you alive because you don’t conform to a certain religion.

Denying you the right to earn a living was just a step towards concentration camps for those that don't believe in the religion of "the science".

Bitcoiner says

Muslims. They are trained from the start that non-Muslims are worthless humans and everything you do to them is okay. It’s hatred founded on religious beliefs.

Kind of like how the vaxxed were treating those who refused the experimental biologic agent.

Bitcoiner says

religion made it a whole lot easier to mass manipulate and brainwash people.

And now the powers that be have television, the internet, and other means of control so traditional religions are losing power.

Bitcoiner says

Tell those dead jews your fear about concentration camps. They deserve a good laugh. Don’t be a cry baby. :)

?

Never mind.

Onvacation says

Bitcoiner says

religion made it a whole lot easier to mass manipulate and brainwash people.

And now the powers that be have television, the internet, and other means of control so traditional religions are losing power.

The Internet has SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the power to control and its designed to be unstoppable.

richwicks says

The Internet has SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the power to control and its designed to be unstoppable.

I stand corrected.

The internet may be our savior from religion.

Onvacation says

The internet may be our savior from religion.

It took out a number of televangelists and megachurches.

The different religions aren't even the same category of thing exactly.

You can be a good Jew and not believe at all, as long as you follow the rules.

For Christians and Muslims, belief is required.

For Muslims, Islam and government are the same thing, with all non-Islamic government being illegitimate.

Bitcoiner says

I never said any of that. And denying you the right to work isn’t as bad as burning you alive because you don’t conform to a certain religion

I have no reason to discuss this with someone incapable of nuance or understanding injustice. Anyone that thinks its okay to deny anyone the right to work because they believe in bodily autonomy is an outright fool at best or a corrupt degenerate at worst. Your partly intellect is incapable of forming ideas beyond "religion bad hurr."

DhammaStep says

People demanded I "trust the science" while denying me the right to work.

This "science" was also a religion.

Bitcoiner says

Yeah, just put it to bed. We were discussing way bigger issues here than not allowed to work. Man up, the Covid BS is over. Sry, don’t feel sry for ya pal.

Men refused the vaccine. If you submitted, and particularly if you participated, for whatever reason, I question if you are an obedient animal or not. When I say obedient animal I'm literally asking if you have self determinism.

They didn't make these silly rules and restrictions because they believed they were useful or helped. They didn't inject you because they thought it was stopping a pandemic. They don't lie to thinking they are informing you.

They hate you, they have contempt for you and it's because you are so slavish, docile, and easy to control that they hate you. It's like a bully that hates the kid because the kid won't stand up

They are testing what they can do, and it turns out just about anything. They put people in plastic inflatable bubbles so people could eat "outside". They killed people by putting in a coma and ventilator. The killed small business

We should have overthrown them, but when have cattle ever overthrown an abusive farmer?

Bitcoiner says

, the Covid BS is over.

It's not over until the tribunals and executions.

richwicks says

Onvacation says

The internet may be our savior from religion.

I took out a number of televangelists and megachurches.

Names?

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

It took out a number of televangelists and megachurches.

Names?

Whoops! Seriously: That's a typo, and I fixed it.

IT took out a number of televangelists and megachurches - "it" being the Internet. Peter Popoff is a famous example.

James Randi was a famous magician. He targeted Popoff having come up with a hypothesis on how Popoff was pulling off his miracles.

People that came to Popoff would fill out cards before they entered listing what they were hoping to cure. His staff would collect these cards and record WHO was entering at the time on video tape. Popoff would then be coached by his wife to find people in the crowd, have Popoff call them out, say that "god" was directing him to answer a prayer, detail the disease or ailment they had, and it was a miracle. He was listening on a (for the time) very sophisticated concealed earpiece.

Technology created the problem, and it solved it.

Popoff was hounded after that, and eventually declared bankruptcy but he came back, and is STILL back.

When Ted Haggard was caught using crystal meth with a gay prostitute, the normal thing to happen would be to cover it up and then just make it a rumor. Instead his interactions were put on the Internet and that ended him.

The frustration I have with the Internet is that although we can expose the most disgusting criminal scandals:



(That was on Hunter Biden's laptop) Nothing happens. If we had a society similar to what we had in 1960, that would have caused Joe Biden to resign.

So I was lied to all my life. I was told, until the point that I believed it, that the average person is a moral person that won't stand for awful things. Well, that's not true. The assumption was that when GROSS CRIMINALITY was exposed, it would be eliminated. Nope.

So the internet did not take out those liars addicts and criminals (they might pose as Christian but that does not make them a Christian any more than posing as a stick makes Diapheromera femorata a tree).

I’m glad when the truth is exposed. But like you said evil still abounds. Both in the realm of Christian posers and politicians. There is nothing hid that will not be revealed.

But make no mistake when a person builds their life, career or eternal hope on lies, they are taking themselves out. They don’t need any help in destroying themselves, their embracing of the lie did that.

Bitcoiner says

Notice how quick you are to name calling. (“fools” , “satan”, “lying”).

Proverbs 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
Satan caused Eve to doubt God’s word in Genesis chapter 3. When Eve was deceived, Adam also sinned. Plunging our world into ruin. You can thank Satan and his questioning of Gods word for every evil that follows. https://earnestlycontendingforthefaith.com/TheKingJamesBibleYeaHathGodSaid.html
It is a lie to claim that mankind doesn’t know its origin and therefore invents religion. Mankind knows it’s origin. Mankind must invent religion to deny its origin. God does not want you to be religious. He wants you to turn away from your religion towards Him.

Nice trolling.

I suppose that because some priests Molest kids, all priests are pedophiles right? Be careful when pointing fingers, lest you forget who you have offended. Hint, it’s not me.

By the way, Satan tempted Jesus with misquoted/out of context Bible verses too. Consider the spirit of your message is it a spirit of truth, or something sinister? Is your motivation love, or something selfish?

I don’t quote the Bible for my benefit, if I wanted to make money I’d tell you lies. But because I tell you the truth I am treated as an enemy. Best consider what a friend really is.

Bitcoiner says

good family?

Let God tell us what is good. He described Job as upright. Are you going to judge God as to why he allowed Satan to take Job’s wealth, health and family? Go ahead, ask God why. Only He knows why. But I can tell you this for certain, all things happen for good, to them that love God and are called according to His purpose. While you are asking questions Why not ask Satan why he desires to kill, destroy and persecute God’s people? Bitcoiner says

Isaiah 13:9–16

Yes, God judges sinners, including children at times. It happened to the Babylonians as you mentioned in Isaiah, it happened to some Israelites when they did the things listed in Hosea 2 which you failed to quote in context “ 2 Now they sin more and more;
they make idols for themselves from their silver,
cleverly fashioned images,
all of them the work of craftsmen.
It is said of these people,
“They offer human sacrifices!
They kiss[a] calf-idols!”
It will happen in spades during the very near future great tribulation of Revelation. And ultimately God will judge every living human with either their own righteousness (which is filthy rags) or Gods own righteousness which is imputed to every believer as a free gift when they turn from their own ways and turn towards God in repentance and faith in the finished work of Christ on Calvary. You see it is foolish to talk about God as a judge if you leave out the most important thing, namely that He saves everyone who will be saved, that is anyone may take the gift of forgiveness freely. They need not bear their sins, nor suffer eternal judgement. Yes in this life there is always consequences for sin, including suffering and death. But no one is innocent, and therefore no one will stand before God and judge Him to be unrighteousness, no not even you.Bitcoiner says

According to the Bible, was the world created around 6,000 years ago

The Bible does not set dates on creation to my knowledge. But a thousand years to man are like one day with God. Revelation speaks of a future millennial kingdom where Jesus returns to earth and rule with a rod of iron for a thousand years. And even after that 1000 years of peace, God will allow Satan (a created being with its own free will who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of heavens angels with him) to deceive men one last time before the end of time.

So however old the earth is, it will exist for at least 1007 more years.

Bitcoiner says

Am I way off

Yeah.
Space-time is for mortals.