patrick.net

I do think years of Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling of ethnic Russian civilians might mean that the referenda are legitimate.

The war began because the illegitimate Ukraine government wouldn’t stop shelling civilians in these breakaway regions and wiping out villages with their Nazi brigades. When Zelenskyy ordered the massive troop build up surrounding Donetsk, with intent to wipe it out for good, Putin was asked by the residents, most of who were Russian, to intervene. After a short war, the two countries were ready to charter out a peace, but Herr Biden came charging in to say “No Peace with Russia!” Then he offered the criminal Zelenskyy and his criminal cartel billions of US dollars to continue the war.

Zelenskyy and his generals have been buying up Swiss chalets worth tens of millions in preparation for the day when their scheme falls apart and they need to scamper like the rats they are.

“No quarter will be given,” boasted one heavily armed insurgent standing at a roadblock which was attacked the previous day during a brief incursion by Ukrainian armoured vehicles and commandos.

https://www.expatica.com/ru/general/no-quarter-will-be-given-slavyansk-rebels-gird-for-siege-69715/

Dilemma: recognizing the annexation means any incursions are direct war against Russian territory. Not recognizing is the risky business of claiming incursions are restoration of Ukrainian territory.

Don't you just love the way they set up their nuclear flash pins?

Onward to Odessa, Kharkiv and the poor Russkies isolated along the Romanian border.

Is Poland drooling long stringers of saliva to take over Western Ukraine? How much radioactive wheat can one eat before your hair starts falling out?

Patrick says

I do think years of Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling of ethnic Russian civilians might mean that the referenda are legitimate.

That's an interesting approach to validating voting. One day we are outraged with "mules" and "drop boxes" and another we are a-ok with an occupation official and two soldiers showing up at every door and making everybody in the house fill up a "ballot" in front of them.

PS. And what "indiscrimitate shelling" are we talking about? The official 15 collateral deaths near the line of contact in Dumb Ass over two years, not disputed by Lavrov himself?

cisTits says

Patrick says

I do think years of Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling of ethnic Russian civilians might mean that the referenda are legitimate.

I told one of my Ukey Kool-Aid drinking friends and he refused to believe it.

Believe what? You too think "the referenda" wrt to fate of whole oblast in a foreign country held in a piece of that oblast by occupying army after big chunk of population has fled it is "legitimate"? It's nice to meet such an election integrity purist. I'll remember this stance when we'll be discussing coming mid-terms.

Meanwhile 5-6000 or Ruscist war criminals are being boiled in Lyman cauldron as we speak. I guess knowing that they are now on the "offcial Ruscia soil" will give them comfort.

Eric Holder says

what "indiscrimitate shelling" are we talking about?

@"Eric Holder"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donbas

A report by the OHCHR released on 28 July 2014 said that based on "conservative estimates", at least 1,129 civilians had been killed since mid-April during the fighting, and that at least 3,442 had been wounded.[18][19] Another OHCHR report, released on 20 November, estimated that the overall number of people killed in the conflict had risen to 4,317, and that at least 9,921 had been wounded.[20]

Amidst a large-scale escalation in fighting during January and February 2015, the number of casualties greatly increased. According to another OHCHR report based on Ukrainian government sources, 843 people were killed in Donbas from 13 January to 15 February. 359 of these were civilians. 3,410 people were injured during the same period, of which 916 were civilians.[21] By 15 February 2015, 5,665 people had been killed since the start of the war in mid-April 2014, whilst 13,961 had been injured. According to the report, these numbers were "very conservative", and based only on "available data". The report went on to say that "the actual number of casualties is likely to be far higher since military and civilian casualties remain under-reported".[22]

The Ukrainians have been killing ethnic Russians in Ukraine for so long that it's part of the plot of the French series The Bureau.

You could look and find the truth if you wanted to.

Patrick says

You could look and find the truth if you wanted to.

And we know these aren't crisis actors exactly how? Remember, you dismissed actual documented bodies of civilians with hands bound and bullet holes in their heads as "fake", but suddenly some blurry picture from 2014 is "God's truth"?

Now, supposed these are real victims ftom 2014, right in the middle of hot campaign. If Ruscists didn't start this shit in the first place there won't be any collateral damage.

But during the last two years preceding this war the official number of civilians killed was 15 as reported by "governments" of these two separatists entities. They reported it, not Zelensky or Biden or Satan. Then BBC reporter has asked Lavrov about that number and he didn't challenge it. So, where is the "massacre", requiring "immediate intervention"? And how is the supposed remedy is better than the thing it was supposed to stop? Hundreds of thousands will be dead by the time it's over, millions arealready displaced. You're worshipping a mass murderer as your Christian Leader, pure and simple.

The whole "rebellion" was manufactured as confessed by the very man who started it - Igor Girkin. Just like in Crimea a month before that. Ukraine tried non-intervention approach there (on Obama's advice and insistance) and lost a chunk of territory. So not intervening in Donetsk was not an option. The contorted logic behind blaming the victim of aggression for collateral damage incurred while repealing it does not hold water.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61825525

Does not challenge the number, does not challenge or explain why reporters were not allowed to witness the alleged "genocide".

MUST BE FAKE LAVROV!

What was revealing was how Putin's rhetoric was not about "protecting" eastern Ukraine but that all of Ukraine is culturally and politically part of Russia Federation.

Why make it about that at the same time have this sense of urgency to invade in order to protect eastern Ukraine ?

Its like Putin starting with eastern Ukraine and annexing region by region all the way to western Ukraine, even though as you had further west, there is less favoritism or allegiance to the Kremlin and Russia.

But no worries, as Russia will just grind them down and convince them (by nuclear blackmail, at gun point, etc.) that its in their best interest to be annexed just like the other 3 Ukrainian regions have been annexed.

That is what all this is happening with Russia's pretext in Ukraine.

.