patrick.net

Eman says

heat pumps are only just getting started and will save oodles of energy for space and water heating and even clothes drying

If you're talking about reducing load on the electricity grid through efficiency, then I have to disagree completely. My old-fashioned natural gas heater, water heater, and dryer use very little electricity. And my car puts no load at all on the electrical grid (well, except for running the gas pump).

Solar panels are heavily subsidized and don't include provisions for depreciation when the batteries and hardware wear out and the owners have to engage future costs (likely in 7 to 20 years) for both hazmat disposal of the old rigs and buying entire new rigs at future inflated costs. There are also the curves of deteriorating performance with age.

They are sold on the presumption and promise that they will always work as optimally as new forever.

Hail destroys thousands of acres of eyesores

https://x.com/DallasTexasTV/status/1772799624941568261

Patrick says

Covering a single flat parking lot with a huge array of panels is a hell of a lot more sensible than dozens of homeowners each individually putting small arrays on their sloped roofs.

SunnyvaleCA says

Covering a single flat parking lot with a huge array of panels is a hell of a lot more sensible than dozens of homeowners each individually putting small arrays on their sloped roofs.

Why? No transmission line loss with the roof solar.

HeadSet says

SunnyvaleCA says

Covering a single flat parking lot with a huge array of panels is a hell of a lot more sensible than dozens of homeowners each individually putting small arrays on their sloped roofs.

Why? No transmission line loss with the roof solar.

Have you seen the hassle involved with getting permits and whatnot for each individual house? Multiply by 100 to have an array as large as the one pictured over the parking lot. The transmission is mostly only shortened if your house has batteries, which is yet another thing that works better at scale. For a supermarket or other mall situation, maybe not build a structure over the parking lot (unless you want that shade for its own benefit), but you could certainly put the panels on the supermarket or mall flat roof.

The biggest benefit of home solar and large battery system is that you can go completely off the expensive and not-always-reliable public grid. That said, I'd rather concentrate on making the public grid work better. Seems like a regression to have each home handle its own electricity independently. Are we going back 200 years and having each home supply its own food too?

Transmission loss can’t be an issue at around a city distance.
At this rate most solar panels businesses bankrupt. It’s better to have few larger installations like above to deal with eventual bankruptcy business by few owners than too many house owners for no additional benefits to the community.
I suspect, they hurt the roof in some cases and add additional costs to the property maintenance.

SunnyvaleCA says

Seems like a regression to have each home handle its own electricity independently. Are we going back 200 years and having each home supply its own food too?

Maybe have the cities and suburbs use a central system, while the rural folks can have their private solar just like they can grow much of their own food.

SunnyvaleCA says

Have you seen the hassle involved with getting permits and whatnot for each individual house?

That may be a local Cal issue. I have visit 7 "net zero" homes here in coastal VA.

Bd6r says

Hail destroys thousands of acres of eyesores

https://x.com/DallasTexasTV/status/1772799624941568261

Another reason to limit solar panels to urban areas like parking lots and to deserts.

Deserts get very little hail, but farmland gets quite a bit.

Patrick says

Bd6r says

Hail destroys thousands of acres of eyesores

https://x.com/DallasTexasTV/status/1772799624941568261

Another reason to limit solar panels to urban areas like parking lots and to deserts.

Deserts get very little hail, but farmland gets quite a bit.

I drove by this disaster a while ago, it looks apocalyptic. I do not think those can be recycled, they will just bury it in landfills and have cadmium telluride and lead leach from it in an environmentally friendly fashion.

Bd6r says

I drove by this disaster a while ago, it looks apocalyptic. I do not think those can be recycled, they will just bury it in landfills and have cadmium telluride and lead leach from it in an environmentally friendly fashion.

Yeah, they've been popping up here in Northern IL. They're designing these ones so they can go vertical if there's severe weather like hail so they don't get smashed. They clearly don't understand IL weather though. Tornados, microburst and derechos happen all the time where we live. Basically high wind events on the low end at 70mph up to an F5 tornado.

Also the power isn't used in the area it's produced in. They build them near existing transmission lines and send it to Chicago and the suburbs here. So we get the eye sore and no benefit to our electric bills.

Back to wind, if there's a major tornado that skirts the edge my town and hits one of those solar farms, those panels are going to be flying everywhere. We just have cornfield around us, so debris is of little concern without a direct it. I could see those things getting flung 1/4 to 1/2 mile in an F5.

They cut off all trees when building solar farms, even hundreds of years old oaks. Very green indeed. The retards who allow devastation of their inherited family farms get paid something like 600 per acre per year for this and it is 20-30 year contracts. Often contracts do not have clause for panel removal at the end of land lease. Neighbors are usually pissed off since land next to them is dead and may become toxic in future. Hopefully all subsidies are removed so we do not have to suffer this.

Bd6r says

They cut off all trees when building solar farms, even hundreds of years old oaks. Very green indeed. The retards who allow devastation of their inherited family farms get paid something like 600 per acre per year for this and it is 20-30 year contracts. Often contracts do not have clause for panel removal at the end of land lease. Neighbors are usually pissed off since land next to them is dead and may become toxic in future. Hopefully all subsidies are removed so we do not have to suffer this.

Oh the public is pissed off around me about it. First is land usage and the loss of farmland. Second is the potential toxins. Third is there's literally no benefit to our community and an eye sore as the electric goes to Chicago. Make Chicago do it. There's 150 acres at the South Works steel mill in Chicago that will never be built on because of blacks. Yes black people and bad neighborhood. The EPA already has said the land is trash.

The other thing is they're going to contract all the work to someone else outside the area and create no new jobs on the proposed stuff around me. They've also been bribing local organizations to pump projects. As a board member I voted no on something that would benefit kids. They try and pull at certain organizations heart strings. I just said I don't want solar panels. We get enough donations from other sources. It felt dirty.

We need to stop subsidizing anything considered green. Because it really is not. You cannot get net zero on your home without panels on the ground or massive battery banks. I'll take natural gas back ups for my home. Wind while equally as ugly it takes up way less land and I'd prefer that over solar as the land around here could still be farmed and we have consisted wind day and night. Still no subsidy for that. Figure out how to raise capital.

SunnyvaleCA says

Each time, for me, the problem seems that I just don't use enough solar to get the economies of scale to amortize the fixed costs. I run about 8 kWh / day with most of it after the sun goes down.

Similar to my situation over ten years ago when I purchased a system that might eventually pay for itself (under NEM 2.0). Fast forward to now where PG&Es top rate (non TOU) is $.51 /kWhr.
365 days x 8 kWhr x $.51/kWhr = $1,489
Install was about $10k so almost 15% return tax free.
I would be remiss to not thank the angry tax payers of Pat.net for subsidizing this purchase.

Solar power that isn't bullshit:







Exowatt P3

Most of it is in a standard shipping container. Produces 25,000 kilowatts each.

Fresnel lenses heat a big ass ceramic brick in the container to 1,000°C. An industrial fan blows air across the hot brick. Hot air drives a Stirling engine.

Fresnel & Stirling systems are 200+ year old tech. Industrial fan what? 120?

24/7 dispatchable electrical power. 3 - 4 cents per kw. Total, not just LCOE bullshit.

Ceramic brick is good for 50 years continous operation.

They are striving to get that down to 1 cent over time and scale.

Everything is 100% made in America.

www.exowatt.com

EBGuy says

SunnyvaleCA says

Each time, for me, the problem seems that I just don't use enough solar to get the economies of scale to amortize the fixed costs. I run about 8 kWh / day with most of it after the sun goes down.

Similar to my situation over ten years ago when I purchased a system that might eventually pay for itself (under NEM 2.0). Fast forward to now where PG&Es top rate (non TOU) is $.51 /kWhr.
365 days x 8 kWhr x $.51/kWhr = $1,489
Install was about $10k so almost 15% return tax free.
I would be remiss to not thank the angry tax payers of Pat.net for subsidizing this purchase.

Prices for system have come down quite a bit from a decade ago, but now there's no real benefit for selling energy back to the power company. You wind up having to get expensive batteries for storage. Also, energy is only $0.45 kWhr off-peak. I also don't run above the "too much use" threshold that also incurs higher prices. There are also other fees.

Note that home solar still requires you be connected to be dependent on the grid. If the grid goes down, you're house goes down even if you have $5k of batteries. I think the better solution is that go completely off grid, but that'll take even more batteries. It's also crazy to see how badly the electricity grid is run such that non-shared solutions are starting to look viable.

If home solar panel were a good idea, then large share installations on the top of flat supermarket roofs would be the first place to put them... not every homeowner doing their own private installation custom to each house.

You can get basic system for less than 2 k. Fossibot 3600 or ecoflow delta 3600 for 1000 to 1500$. Get 3-400 $ worth of solar panel to create 1000 watt per hr electricity n store it. Wire for 100 $

30% tax rebate .

You can use it daily and and if power goes out in emergency. Lot quieter than gas or oil generators. Also if use less grid electricity, you pay less also to.

Patrick says

Yes like most of the Green Energy mandate. None of it is executed with pragmatic wisdom or sophisticated execution.
It was just flung off the end of a fork at those that resisted it the most. With no forethought on the hazardous encroachment or ineffective utilization.

Patrick says

They do it in CA but mostly over school parking lots. I've only seen two business parking lots covered by panels, but every fucking school has them. And this is in the state with insanely high energy costs.Does this mean that school
boards are more business-savvy than businessmen? 🤡

RWSGFY says

Patrick says

They do it in CA but mostly over school parking lots. I've only seen two business parking lots covered by panels, but every fucking school has them. And this is in the state with insanely high energy costs.Does this mean that school
boards are more business-savvy than businessmen? 🤡

It just means that school boards have more of “other peoples” money to spend than businesses do, also not targeting a certain rate of return as high as what the rest of the business does. Schools in CA also have a bunch of guidelines and goals from the state that they have to meet regarding energy use and renewable energy.

Kaiser hospitals have this too. Other large parking lots will probably adopt it over time, it's nice because it provides shade and rain cover as well as energy.

Id put one at my house if there were room

Call me back in twelve years when all of those panels start to fail and become biohazard waste.

That is, if they haven't blown off in a storm or been pelted and destroyed in some other manner in the meanwhile.

Ceffer says

Call me back in twelve years when all of those panels start to fail and become biohazard waste.



At that time, it becomes a cash king in recycling fees for the state.

MolotovCocktail says

www.exowatt.com

I love this. Thought for years myself about ways to simply focus light to make steam, or giant thermal masses of water or stone to even out summer and winter demand.

https://www.exowatt.com/solutions

Eman says

I did the math of Tesla solar panels. Cost is $17.4K after tax incentives. It would cover my monthly electricity bill of $230/mo on average. Add in a powerwall will increase the cost by $8k. Without the powerwall, it’s about 15% ROI. What am I missing?

Have you pursued this further?

Here in California you get very low value for selling electrons back to the utility company. (This changed in the last few years to be very low.) So, you need the batteries because you want to keep your own electricity and use it at night. How long do the batteries last? Who knows, but to be effective at saving money they need to be charged and discharged daily, which will probably tend to wear them out.

AD says

So?

And the CCP who make the panels and their chips hold the big red button for setting them off. Kublai Khan's flaming birds.

https://t.me/tribunalsandexecutions/533914

MolotovCocktail says

So?

can put these on the roof of our home in Florida panhandle as we already are connected to the grid

so we can generate our own electricity on sunny days, perhaps enough to not need electricity from Florida Power and Light

SunnyvaleCA says

Eman says

I did the math of Tesla solar panels. Cost is $17.4K after tax incentives. It would cover my monthly electricity bill of $230/mo on average. Add in a powerwall will increase the cost by $8k. Without the powerwall, it’s about 15% ROI. What am I missing?

Have you pursued this further?

Here in California you get very low value for selling electrons back to the utility company. (This changed in the last few years to be very low.) So, you need the batteries because you want to keep your own electricity and use it at night. How long do the batteries last? Who knows, but to be effective at saving money they need to be charged and discharged daily, which will probably tend to wear them out.

Current BESS technology is only good for 8-10 years, then you will have to replace. Should be calculating in the cost of 1.5 to 2 capital renewals of the BESS over a 25-30 year PV/Inverter system lifecycle.

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory warns that by the end of their lifetime, 80 million tons of solar panel waste could end up in landfills globally. Today’s conditions do not encourage PV recycling. 500 gigawatts of PV are assumed to be installed in the U.S. by 2050 (compared to 104 gigawatts in 2020), generating 9.1 million metric tons of PV waste. Average recycling cost is $28 per module, repair is $65 per module, and landfill is $1.38 per module, where used modules are sold at 36% of new module prices.

From 2020 to 2050, approximately 80% of modules are landfilled, 1% are reused, and 10% are recycled. With today’s material recovery rate, the recycled mass totals just 0.7 million metric tons through 2050, or approximately 8%.

With today’s technology, PV modules are difficult to separate, and the process recovers mostly low-value materials. Because of this, there currently isn’t enough revenue from recycling to offset the high costs, and therefore very little mass is recycled. This will lead to a major waste problem by 2050.



https://x.com/JohnLeePettim13/status/1989463681546293661?s=20

A contractor dude I know who does roofing among other things once told me: "keep these solar monkeys off your roof - it's not worth the trouble they cause".

Same goes for "we'll clean your gutters for $200" monkeys if access to any of these gutters requires them jumping on the tile roof - they'll crack the shit out of it.

RWSGFY says

Same goes for "we'll clean your gutters for $200" monkeys if access to any of these gutters requires them jumping on the tile roof - they'll crack the shit out of it.

I would never buy a house with a tile roof.

zzyzzx says

RWSGFY says

Same goes for "we'll clean your gutters for $200" monkeys if access to any of these gutters requires them jumping on the tile roof - they'll crack the shit out of it.

I would never buy a house with a tile roof.

Why not? They look good and last a very long time if nobody is jumping on them.

zzyzzx says

I would never buy a house with a tile roof.

Yes, thatched roof is the only way to go.

Eric Holder says

Why not? They look good and last a very long time if nobody is jumping on them.

We have clay tile on our house and love it. I had a contractor do a "lift and relay" a few years after we bought the house putting new paper down and reusing most of the existing tile. The tile will last over 100 years!

That said, you can't walk on it. My contractor buddy says you should only let a 100 pound Mexican in socks do any roof work!

socal2 says

The tile will last over 100 years!

In CA maybe. IL they're toast in 30 years if that. Hail storms. Every house here will get smashed by golf ball or bigger sized hail 1-3 times in your lifetime. It destroys clay tile.

Not saying they're bad roofs, just they only work in specific areas.

WookieMan says

In CA maybe. IL they're toast in 30 years if that. Hail storms. Every house here will get smashed by golf ball or bigger sized hail 1-3 times in your lifetime. It destroys clay tile.

And people say weather doesn't matter, LOL.

WookieMan says

Every house here will get smashed by golf ball or bigger sized hail 1-3 times in your lifetime. It destroys clay tile.

That happens in Germany tool. Just before I did my foreign study year in Innsbruck, there was a crazy hailstorm so you'd see all these damaged cars driving around.

The most notable hailstorm in Germany during the 1980s was the Munich hailstorm on July 12, 1984, which caused extensive damage with tennis ball-sized hailstones.

This event resulted in an estimated cost of 3 billion Deutschmark, making it the most significant loss event in the history of the German insurance industry at that time.

The storm damaged approximately 70,000 homes and 200,000 cars, and it is often remembered for the term "Munich Design," which jokingly referred to cars whose bodywork was not repaired after the storm.