patrick.net

Aphroman says

When discussing Republicans with a Great American Independent, you lose the discussion by devolving instantly to “yea but muh Democrats!”

Not really. In the past couple of days, we've been hearing that every single possible positive economic chart is showing a boom, except one, that has been shitty for decades, and somehow that's the one that proves Trump sucked. Even though it sucked for almost all of Obama's presidency except a few quarters.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

this is his usual negative crap

True that Denninger is extremely negative, and he apparently thinks that everything can be solved by death penalties. Having said that, he is very logical if you remove the extreme language.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

It's Wrestling and Drama Build Up

That might be the problem - he tries to run govt as a soap opera. True, it is better than active idiocy which we would have with Hillary as he does not interfere with economics (e.i. does not strangle businesses, which is enough for economic success). And he is a breath of fresh air with respect to not being politically correct.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

I think he's working with Congress, and especially Cruz, to threaten or actually regulate Social Media into better behavior, btw.

I am not quite sure how one could regulate, and if government SHOULD regulate private businesses. My approach to the fact that Facesucker ((c) Denninger) and Twatter SUCK is not to use them and to actively discourage people I know from using those. That is why I am on Patnet :)

I would love to be wrong about Trump, but we will just have to wait and see. I think many people project their ideals onto politicians they voted for, but we should all be critical towards them.

Aphroman says

More whataboutisms

Which you (and most democrats) will never address.

That's the difference I see between the modern Democrat party and the Trump GOP. The Trump GOP will examine it's own people in a negative light (such as Sessions or Bannon), the Democrat party will give a pass for just about any scummy action performed by its own party (like with Wasserman-Shultz or Ellison).

dr6B says

I would love to be wrong about Trump, but we will just have to wait and see. I think many people project their ideals onto politicians they voted for, but we should all be critical towards them.

I see him as a Medici or Machiavelli.

As I said before Trump was elected, some want some gravelly voiced President who will simply prosecute, fix, and fire on a Grand Scale with lightening speed. I don't think that's politically practical (without major problems that existentially threaten the Elite themselves like the Great Depression), because the Elite will feel overwhelmed and react with a coup or impeachment, or the Media will spin it as Tyranny or both.

If Trump went whole hog for the Deep State in one fell swoop, he'd be abandoned, isolated, and cut off. Instead he's cutting off little rotten pieces here and there.

So the whole "Drunken Style Kung Fu" ploy seems to be working so far.

I'm amazed that the mass of the Media, the Elites, and about half the public hasn't seen through the "Happy Go Lucky OrangeDouche who simply lucks his way into winning." when it's quite clear he prepares the battlefield long in advance. By the time the battle is held, it's already won. But then he feigns weakness somewhere else... and on and on it goes.

He will eventually make a mistake, however.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

I see him as a Medici or Machiavelli.

I see him as a bullying Yankee real estate speculator and sociopath. Sounds bad, but at least he has business experience and thus is better compared to Chicago community activists or screeching lawyers.

Aphroman says

What is the value in harping on Democrats 24/7 while giving Republicans a pass?

All politicians should be harped at and should have their feet held to fire at all times.

Aphroman says

Most importantly, he’s a deadbeat.

Just plain bad for business

Exactly...

Building a multi-billion dollar organization with over 22,000 employees and having business enterprises all over the world, make him a TRUE deadbeat.

How many employees do you have?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Not really. In the past couple of days, we've been hearing that every single possible positive economic chart is showing a boom, except one, that has been shitty for decades, and somehow that's the one that proves Trump sucked. Even though it sucked for almost all of Obama's presidency except a few quarters.

Please post those charts that show a boom. I'm assuming there are multiple ones or else it wouldn't be plural.

MrMagic says

Building a multi-billion dollar organization with over 22,000 employees and having business enterprises all over the world, make him a TRUE deadbeat.

How many employees do you have?

Seriously, I've spent my entire adult life working, investing, and I'm not even a double digit millionaire yet.

How can anyone call a multi-billionaire a dead beat who is bad for business?

Aphroman says

it doesn’t make any sense to harp on the 2016 Democrats. They lost, get over it

Exactly. So why the whole #Resist movement from the Democrats/left?

It seems like they have yet to agree to the "get over it" part, and have dedicated themselves to making things as difficult for Americans as possible instead of working with the party in power.

Well, when this supposed expert businessman was left hundreds of millions of $$ from Daddy, proceeded to bankrupt multiple companies and would have been personally bankrupt if it wasn't for Daddy, his most successful and rewarding role was a reality TV star, and even so his wealth is LESS than what it would have been had he simply put his inheritance in an S&P 500 fund, I call that an idiot.

Goran_K says

Aphroman says

it doesn’t make any sense to harp on the 2016 Democrats. They lost, get over it

Exactly. So why the whole #Resist movement from the Democrats/left?

It seems like they have yet to agree to the "get over it" part, and have dedicated themselves to making things as difficult for Americans as possible instead of working with the party in power.

Right. And while we’re at it, let’s not forget that they chose this idiot as their candidate:
www.youtube.com/embed/Y-H9BOIYhgc

Goran_K says

It seems like they have yet to agree to the "get over it" part, and have dedicated themselves to making things as difficult for Americans as possible instead of working with the party in power.

Pot, kettle, black.

Republicans spent 8 years making things as difficult for Americans as possible instead of working with the party in power.

OH, sorry--I forgot. Goran is not a Republican. lol.

LeonDurham says

even so his wealth is LESS than what it would have been had he simply put his inheritance in an S&P 500 fund, I call that an idiot.

Hmm. I'd like to see the analysis you did to come to this conclusion. Can you show ANY data/proof that what you just said was true?

LeonDurham says

Please post those charts that show a boom. I'm assuming there are multiple ones or else it wouldn't be plural.

I posted multiple ones the other day. Why are you ignoring them?

Goran_K says

Hmm. I'd like to see the analysis you did to come to this conclusion. Can you show ANY data/proof that what you just said was true?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-probably-better-investing-donald-233020366.html

http://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/

MrMagic says

I posted multiple ones the other day. Why are you ignoring them?

No, you didn't. The charts you posted didn't show a boom when Trump was elected at all.

LeonDurham says

Well, when this supposed expert businessman was left hundreds of millions of $$ from Daddy, proceeded to bankrupt multiple companies and would have been personally bankrupt if it wasn't for Daddy, his most successful and rewarding role was a reality TV star, and even so his wealth is LESS than what it would have been had he simply put his inheritance in an S&P 500 fund, I call that an idiot.

Oh Joey, you're just trolling again..

He took Millions and turned them into BILLIONS..

He filed bankruptcy on 4 businesses out of over 500 he's involved in.

and were back to the S&P crap again... what about the jobs he produced for over 22,000 people plus all the support companies that supply his businesses...

We know who the idiots are...

MrMagic says

and were back to the S&P crap again... what about the jobs he produced for over 22,000 people plus all the support compains that supply his businesses...

Does allowing a business to use his name really == creating jobs to you? These businesses were built by others. He had no part in it.

LeonDurham says

MrMagic says

I posted multiple ones the other day. Why are you ignoring them?

No, you didn't. The charts you posted didn't show a boom when Trump was elected at all.

Really??

The whole discussion about comparing Obama to Trump? Short memory or in need of trolling dollars?

MrMagic says

Really??

The whole discussion about comparing Obama to Trump? Short memory or in need of trolling dollars?

Yes, really. I remember the charts you posted and they don't say what you think they say.

LeonDurham says

Goran_K says

Hmm. I'd like to see the analysis you did to come to this conclusion. Can you show ANY data/proof that what you just said was true?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-probably-better-investing-donald-233020366.html

http://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/

That article, as I thought it would be, is based on pure fantasy, and not an actual life. As pointed out by commentators:

1. When a dividend is paid, taxes are due so the whole dividend is not available to be reinvested. You would know this if you have actually invested into dividend paying funds. Also, in a S&P fund, when stocks are rotated in/out there are Capital Gains to be paid. Trump is in a very high tax bracket especially in the early days of his accumulation.

2. He also needed money to live his extravagant life. The author claims all of his dividends would have to be reinvested. How realistic is that? Someone is going to live as a bum for 30 years while his dividends get reinvested? Get fucking real. There is something called LIFE and you can't BUY YEARS back. I'd rather spend "dividends" to live a good life, buying nice cars, fucking pretty models, while still being filthy rich.

That article, and the author is fucking retarded.

If you still can't figure it out, get a cheap flight to Columbus on Southwest for a weekend. Drive around, eat in some restaurants and just listen.

There is absolutely no penetrating that shield. Accept it and move on...but there's another element here no one's discussing. Going forward, the Presidency itself will be different. No longer will that office be the almost exclusive province of Washington pols and academics. It won't happen in 2020 because Trump's shadow is too great to overcome but beginning in 2024, we can expect to have serious candidates from the ranks of business executives capable of funding on their own or with ample access to those who can. Think Bob Iger, Jamie Dimon or Bob Rubin. Every one of these guys is a centrist Democrat or what we used to call DLC. If there's a lesson in this at all, it means party leadership has to bring the crazy kids to heel and they have to do it soon.

MrMagic says

LeonDurham says

Well, when this supposed expert businessman was left hundreds of millions of $$ from Daddy, proceeded to bankrupt multiple companies and would have been personally bankrupt if it wasn't for Daddy, his most successful and rewarding role was a reality TV star, and even so his wealth is LESS than what it would have been had he simply put his inheritance in an S&P 500 fund, I call that an idiot.

Oh Joey, you're just trolling again..

He took Millions and turned them into BILLIONS..

He filed bankruptcy on 4 businesses out of over 500 he's involved in.

and were back to the S&P crap again... what about the jobs he produced for over 22,000 people plus all the support companies that supply his businesses...

We know who the idiots are...

(sigh)

If facts mattered, Obama would never have been elected. We got Trump as a reaction to Obama.

Trump is doing precisely what I want him to do and I am quite sure he will be there for two terms. His Electoral total in 2020 will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 320-340.

We live in Danville and are anxiously awaiting the next bust which is probably about eighteen months away. We're long overdue.

BayArea says

Although these characteristics are unbecoming, you can’t seriously expect these to be enough for a conservative to flip? Flip to what?

As long as he’s for lowering taxes, pro 2nd amendment, tough on immigration, against bs socialist policy, then conservatives will support.

Don’t act so surprised folks. It matters little that he’s an asshole, matters little that he’s rude and offensive.

This is very interesting as it shows how conservatives are willing to compromise while progressives are ready to protest about anything that even slightly disagrees with them.

Who is generally more willing to compromise, adults or children?

LeonDurham says

and even so his wealth is LESS than what it would have been had he simply put his inheritance in an S&P 500 fund, I call that an idiot.

I'll put the final nail in that Liberal circle-jerk story that keeps getting recycled...

Now, take that narrative and and factor in all the 401K accounts of the 22,000 employees that Trump has in his organization. What's the total wealth of that combination with the market gains for all those employees in all their 401K, IRA accounts and private investment accounts?

Remember, Rachel Maddow isn't the best source for accurate Trump bashing information.

MrMagic says

I'll put the final nail in that Liberal circle-jerk story that keeps getting recycled...

Now, take that narrative and and factor in all the 401K accounts of the 22,000 employees that Trump has in his organization. What's the total wealth of that combination with the market gains for all those employees in all their 401K, IRA accounts and private investment accounts?

Remember, Rachel Maddow isn't the best source for accurate Trump bashing information.

No no. You have to reinvest 100% of your after tax dividends and sleep under a park bench. Who cares about driving a Ferrari while fucking Ms. Victoria's secret cover model? That's for people who don't know how to invest properly. You know, dumb ass multi-billionaires.

rootvg says

Oh Joey, you're just trolling again..

He took Millions and turned them into BILLIONS..

He filed bankruptcy on 4 businesses out of over 500 he's involved in.

and were back to the S&P crap again... what about the jobs he produced for over 22,000 people plus all the support companies that supply his businesses...

We know who the idiots are...

When someone buys a business like the Dorado golf course they don't "produce" jobs. The business is up and running already plus all the support companies were already supplying. The Grand Hyatt was the old Commodore Hotel remodeled. The jobs were already there. Etc., Etc., Etc..

Trump reports 500 LLC's. Since they are private there is no way of knowing how many actually own something, how much ownership there is, how much equity there is, how many are just licensing deals. or how many actually employ people. You can't do a licensing deal and say the people work for you and you created the jobs.

Stock index funds turn millions into billions also.

We know who the idiots are.

bob2356 says

When someone buys a business like the Dorado golf course they don't "produce" jobs. The business is up and running already plus all the support companies were already supplying. The Grand Hyatt was the old Commodore Hotel remodeled. The jobs were already there. Etc., Etc., Etc..

This is a complete misunderstanding of how an economy works. The jobs aren't just "there", the jobs are being actively supported to be there. People don't work for free, they work for wages, which Trump continued to pay. Trump didn't "add those jobs", he kept those jobs in the economy.

Goran_K says

No no. You have to reinvest 100% of your after tax dividends and sleep under a park bench. Who cares about driving a Ferrari while fucking Ms. Victoria's secret cover model? That's for people who don't know how to invest properly. You know, dumb ass multi-billionaires.

That is assuming Trump is anywhere near as wealthy as he claims. Fortune, Bloomburg, TIme, and lot's of other very creditable sources seriously doubt it. Most peg Trump at 2.5-3 billion. Which is half of what simply putting his inherited wealth into an index fund would have produced. He would have had 3 billion and had 3 billion to buy ferraris while fucking Ms. Victoria's Secret cover model.

Do you have some inside source of information that you can share that confirms Trump's real wealth is anywhere near what trump claims?

LeonDurham says

Please post those charts that show a boom. I'm assuming there are multiple ones or else it wouldn't be plural.

Already been up by myself and other many times.

Stock market near all time highs
Unemployment at lows not seen since 1969 (except once in 2000)
Record unemployment for Minorities
Lowest Youth unemployment in half a century
GDP growth over 4% not coming out of a recession.

Who besides Leon thinks the economy isn't doing well right now?

LeonDurham says

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-probably-better-investing-donald-233020366.html

http://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/

Except, there were no Index funds back then.

And of course, the performance of index funds depends on people doing something other with money besides investing in index funds. Like founding Microsoft or Costco. Or building a shit ton of casinos and huge residences, which created a ton of economic activity.

bob2356 says

That is assuming Trump is anywhere near as wealthy as he claims. Fortune, Bloomburg, TIme, and lot's of other very creditable sources seriously doubt it. Most peg Trump at 2.5-3 billion. Which is half of what simply putting his inherited wealth into an index fund would have produced. He would have had 3 billion and had 3 billion to buy ferraris while fucking Ms. Victoria's Secret cover model.

Do you have some inside source of information that you can share that confirms Trump's real wealth is anywhere near what trump claims?

That's not what I care about. I asked how Trump could conceivable make more in an "index fund" instead of the business model he has perfected over the past 4 decades. Then someone posted a retarded thread about investing "100% of dividends for 30+ years", and it was rightly debunked as fucking retarded.

As for Trump's personal wealth, I don't care how many billions Trump has, even if he "only" has ONE billion. You going to sit there and call him an idiot who doesn't know business? Seriously? A guy with a billion dollars?

Okay, have at it. I'm a guy who has spent over 2 decades working around the world, has a large contract with the California Department of Education (millions), and I am not yet even in the double digit millions of net worth. I wouldn't call a billionaire who has hotels and resorts all over the world a business failure/idiot/moron/etc.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

If Trump had documentable access to half of what he claims, banks would have been in line to loan him whatever he needed to right his casinos after they went down - just for his signature.

That's wrong, Trump could have got what ever he wanted. He wanted OUT of the shithole known as Atlantic City, so he cut his losses and checked out.

rootvg says

Jamie Dimon

Banksters in general and Jamie Dimon in particular is the epitome of what is wrong with US

step 1. Bribe politicians to remove banking restrictions
step 2. Give loans to anyone with a pulse
step 3. Pay yourself a YUUGE bonus
step 4. Bank goes underwater
step 5. Run to Obama and cry: waaa...we are a systemically important bank, bail us out otherwise economy collapses
step 6. Pay yourself another YUUGE bonus from taxpayer money

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Except, there were no Index funds back then.

OK--if Trump had invested passively in stocks and earned the same returns as the overall market.

Do you like that better?

LeonDurham says

OK--if Trump had invested passively in stocks and earned the same returns as the overall market.

This is irrelevant to pretty much everything, but please share your numbers.

Hint: you can't. This is #fakenews.

BOB says

Most peg Trump at 2.5-3 billion. Which is half of what simply putting his inherited wealth into an index fund would have produced.

Lol

LeonDurham says

OK--if Trump had invested passively in stocks and earned the same returns as the overall market.

What if all his employees did that?

MrMagic says

Now, take that narrative and and factor in all the 401K accounts of the 22,000 employees that Trump has in his organization. What's the total wealth of that combination with the market gains for all those employees in all their 401K, IRA accounts and private investment accounts?

Bueller?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Already been up by myself and other many times.

Stock market near all time highs
Unemployment at lows not seen since 1969 (except once in 2000)
Record unemployment for Minorities
Lowest Youth unemployment in half a century
GDP growth over 4% not coming out of a recession.

Who besides Leon thinks the economy isn't doing well right now?

It's a shame that have to resort to mischaracterizing me in order to make any semblance of a point. Very dishonest of you.

I never said the economy isn't doing well now. In fact I've said the opposite--that Trump was handed a great economy and the trend lines the existed before his Presidency have largely remained constant, although jobs created and real wages have gotten worse.

All the unemployment numbers are following the same trend as under Obama, although the jobs created numbers have worsened.

Obama's consecutive quarters of GDP averaging 5% were 3 years after the recession. Not coming out of it.