patrick.net

CaptainShuddup says

Are you saying it's a myth in the programming world, or are you saying you work at Google and you have never worked more than 40 hours?

I worked at large, medium, and small companies. I also worked for a certain highly successful search company.

ON AVERAGE, I never worked more than 40 hours a week.

CaptainShuddup says

The other reason I've worked 16 hour days, is because I'm working as a vendor with my own clients, on a deliverable basis. So it makes no difference if I bang out the job in the 3 months allotted for the contract or in just three weeks.

Of course. That is a very good reason. But then you are not a salaried employee.

Peter P says

For a developer or engineer, I don't see how it's impressive to have Apple on your resume.

I've asked myself the same question.

Rin says

Peter P says

For a developer or engineer, I don't see how it's impressive to have Apple on your resume.

I've asked myself the same question.

For a software guy, it is much better to have some big-data experience. Nowadays, the success of a startup depends on its ability to scale WAY up. The idea itself rarely matters anymore. This is not 1998.

So, a stint at Google, Facebook, LinkedIn will look more impressive.

CaptainShuddup says

There's been plenty of times that I have had to put in 16 hour days ... There are usually two reasons for it...

First because I'm part of some software development team, who in spite of my fair warnings and predictions, kept a design through out development

I'm sure that problems in the development cycle are always due to people ignoring your warnings.

You must be great fun to collaborate with. I'm surprised you haven't been stabbed.

Rin says

Obviously, nobody's punching a clock but what I'd seen is that typically, 9-11 hours per day, and sure, ppl leaving at 4 PM on a Thursday, is common, but overall, it accumulates into a busy weekwork, and greater than 40 hours.

This seems to be true in finance though. I have seen people doing 0530 to 1730 every day.

Peter P says

For a software guy, it is much better to have some big-data experience. Nowadays, the success of a startup depends on its ability to scale WAY up. The idea itself rarely matters anymore. This is not 1998.

So, a stint at Google, Facebook, LinkedIn will look more impressive.

I'd think that a shop which uses a large Oracle installation may be even better, as Oracle's pretty much, the standard for the Fortune 1000's data volumes.

CaptainShuddup says

If they are a scrum shop and harp on and on about unit testing, and code commenting and all of the various shit that does absolutely nothing to get the job done other than stand in the way of progress.

Oh, why are you against unit-testing. It is actually good shit. :-)

People do it wrong though. They start with huge end-to-end tests that take ages to run. Yet a single code change will render 70% of the tests obsolete.

Anyway, software is a place where hard-work can be a liability. Robust-laziness should be the goal.

Peter P says

Rin says

Obviously, nobody's punching a clock but what I'd seen is that typically, 9-11 hours per day, and sure, ppl leaving at 4 PM on a Thursday, is common, but overall, it accumulates into a busy weekwork, and greater than 40 hours.

This seems to be true in finance though. I have seen people doing 0530 to 1730 every day.

When I was a contractor, I'd seen it in a lot of places minus govt and consumer products, where everyone took it easy.

Buy yeah, finance and law have long hours.

Rin says

Buy yeah, finance and law have long hours.

The plus side is that I can expense the hotel rooms up in Montreal. All I have to do to justify it is to call one client and those are my friends up in Canada.

Rin says

I'd think that a shop which uses a large Oracle installation may be even better, as Oracle's pretty much, the standard for the Fortune 1000's data volumes.

Oracle is EXCELLENT for large enterprises in terms of data storage and analysis. However, relational databases have trouble with very large data sets. Even the biggest companies have tiny data sets compared to ALL the user data out there. :-)

Nowadays, it is a good idea for a startup to consider scalability on day one. If they start with SQL they may end up developing features (like those "clever" joins) that are nearly impossible to scale. I am talking about hundreds of servers distributed across the globe. (With services like Amazon AWS it is a matter of running a script.)

Unit testing tests are no replacement for a thorough QA process.

Not to mention you as a developer making anywhere from 50K to 120K are rewriting the same code you just wrote for the Unit test, then you have to tweak and rework your own code, just so it can be compatible with the Unit testing software. When that process is complete, then only thing that team of developers have created is a successful Unit Test case.
Now how well it still fist your business process is to be determined, but some shitty Scrum master now gets to cover his ass by saying. "It all passed the Unit tests."

Do you really think that all of those Obama websites that have failed, virtually all of them for those of you paying attention at home, were NOT thoroughly Unit tested, and passed with impressive flying colors?

Give me an obnoxious QA person who's job it is to break my code, any day.
I hate them and we end up wanting to break each other's neck, but in the end we're both normally proud of each others accomplishments and input.
They can trouble shoot not only code down to the most petty minutia, but the UI as well. Which Unit testing really doesn't do.

More over!!!!
And this is a very very very important point. In this day and age of design patterns, and reusable libraries. It's kind of silly to keep doing such low level computer testing on code that has proved itself time and time again.

There are companies out there still using software I wrote in 2006.

Rin says

The plus side is that I can expense the hotel rooms up in Montreal. All I have to do to justify it is to call one client and those are my friends up in Canada.

Get one with a rotating bed. :-)

Law has long hours because it is a billable-hour type business. You are the fixed cost. Your work is the variable income.

CaptainShuddup says

Unit testing tests are no replacement for a through QA process.

A good unit-testing process *IS* a huge part of the QA process. Instead of having a team of 3-4 testers, you just need 1 QA engineer to oversee automated testing.

CaptainShuddup says

Not to mention you as a developer making anywhere from 50K to 120K are rewriting the same code you just wrote for the Unit test, then you have to tweak and rework your own code, just so it can be compatible with the Unit testing software.

Good, clean code is usually compatible with unit testing. It is the UI that is problematic.

One can certainly architect for testability. One tip: do not use the MVC paradigm, use Model-View-Presenter instead. You want the hard-to-test UI to be a thin veneer over testable logic.

CaptainShuddup says

And this is a very very very important point. In this day and age of design patterns, and reusable libraries. It's kind of silly to keep doing such low level computer testing on code that has proved itself time and time again.

Oh, I beg to differ.

The whole idea of Design Patterns was about making sense with limiting languages and tools (like C++ and Java). With an expressive language with flexible syntax and good meta-programming support, one can completely do away with design patterns.

Software reusability is a myth. You need to have perfect knowledge of the future to design perfectly reusable code. In reality, such libraries or frameworks are either too general to be useful, or too limiting to be useful.

I advocate the use of bespoke frameworks and problem/domain-specific languages.

Adapting an open-source tool frequently means even more work. Worse yet, you are importing THEIR future path of growth. Sometimes, it's worth it. Usually, you better think twice.

No I wanna write code that works. I've spent the last 25 years learning code and standards, to have them change, then back in fashion, to now MVC is a hodgepodge of everything that was sworn off in the last 15 years and is this huge clusterfuck library of why the hell not.

I squat on Microsoft. Most of what is presented in the ASP.NET libraries were meant to showcase the power of .NET. 90% of the Developers out there have no freaking clue the power and simplicity that is possible just writing straight up .net code and using just regular html elements instead of the .NET controls. It's all about json, web methods and jquery.

MVC is just a huge scrotum hammering for the sake of stupidity.

Especially now that jQuery has entered the picture.

Rin says

Instead, wouldn't it have been better to attend dental school, have a six figure income but work 40 hours per week?

Try to spend 40hours a week in other people's mouths.

Most of them stink. Some have contagious diseases.

After a few years of that, I'm sure dentists feel like studying mathematics.

CaptainShuddup says

I squat on Microsoft. Most of what is presented in the ASP.NET libraries were meant to showcase the power of .NET. 90% of the Developers out there have no freaking clue the power and simplicity that is possible just writing straight up .net code and using just regular html elements instead of the .NET controls. It's all about json, web methods and jquery.

F# is my favorite language.

For web stuff, one should take a serious look at AngularJS.

Most startups do not think about the long-term maintainability of their code bases. They usually fail at the 4-year mark, precisely the amount of time it takes for code-hacks to degenerate into unworkable shit. All progress grinds to a halt and so it ends.

Heraclitusstudent says

Try to spend 40hours a week in other people's mouths.

I thought that is relatively pleasant for an oral-type work. :-)

Rin says

The way I see Apple is that it's a job to setup the resume for additional jobs, down the road. Aside from that, it appears to be a lousy company to work for.

I'd advise using more than this article to base your opinion on. It's of-course hard to tell if you aren't directly there, but from all appearances Apple is an insanely great company with insanely great jobs. (emphasis between insane and great may fluctuate at times)

Check out what glassdoor is saying ...
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW4870579.htm

Rew says

Ellie, from what little I see of your communication here on p net, I believe you are a very sharp and dedicated person. Try not to despair and I bet you can find something ... anything ... and one thing will lead to another.

I do enjoy what I do and take great pride in it. I do sell a few books to supplement my income. A friend and I were lamenting about this subject, as we worked together 20 years ago at a shitty public agency that paid well but treated its workers like shit. If we had stayed there for 20 years, we would have retirement and longevity, as well as drug & alcohol problems (I'm sure). I don't regret that I left, just regret that there is little to no job security in my field and that companies prize the managers while the workers worry about making ends meet.

I work with people who are in support positions and make hardly above minimum wage. Just having to deal with 20 practitioners should award them combat pay.

I find it ironic that people who actually help people, work in caregiving jobs (social work, medical support, teachers) don't make a whole lot, while people in other jobs rake in the bucks.

If I'm expected to respond to 1 am emails, then I expect a salary well into the six-figure range. Otherwise forget it. I have other gigs that I can work at.

My coding thought process is called "Leaving a hole".

I leave holes in my design process, that accommodates appending more complex objects, or drastic changes to my existing objects. But my design process starts out with a foundation on which everything else is built on.
That foundation is unique to the business model I'm creating software for.
Once I have the foundation in place. Adding and removing things becomes quite trivial. I can drop in whole sections, and add children and grandchildren in just the time from a 12pm meeting to the next day's follow up meeting.

The IT department's of the Companies that I'm a vendor for, HATE me.
My code is ten times more eloquent, faster and bug free than their projects. I deliver projects that would take a team of 4 more than a year to complete in a corporate environment, I can deliver those projects in under 3 months by my self.

Do you know why Indians are so great at programming?
Because they make the development tools work for them instead of the otherway around. American development culture is one built to cover an inept culture of IT executive's asses, at the expense of otherwise capable developers.

Rew says

It's of-course hard to tell if you aren't directly there, but from all appearances Apple is an insanely great company with insanely great jobs.

Judging from the sheer number of people who call the iPhone an "insanely great" phone I wonder if working at Apple triggers the same emotion as like owning an iPhone...

CaptainShuddup says

Now how well it still fist your business process is to be determined

Fisting?

What industry do you work for?

CaptainShuddup says

Do you know why Indians are so great at programming?

Because they make the development tools work for them instead of the otherway around. American development culture is one built to cover an inept culture of IT executive's asses, at the expense of otherwise capable developers.

I found Indians who have adopted the American culture to be some of the best programmers. Indians in India, or most foreign programmers in their native countries, are not so great.

Software is a highly cultural activity and I think we still have an edge.

The very role of IT executives is to be a scapegoat for failed projects anyway. No wonder they cover their asses faster than Google can display your search result.

It is better to work as a software developer for a software company. Software needs to be their core competence.

CaptainShuddup says

inept culture of IT executive's asses

Actually, you can add most of the MBA-ologists of corporate America to that category.

jvolstad says

If I'm expected to respond to 1 am emails, then I expect a salary well into the six-figure range. Otherwise forget it. I have other gigs that I can work at.

I concur, which is why I'll field calls from Singapore, since they're 12 hours apart, in an effort to attract more business.

Rin says

Actually, you can add most of the MBA-ologists of corporate America to that category.

MBA is really a country club.

Rin says

o here's my question ... if one didn't grow up in the SFBA, why would they want to study STEM and work for Apple? For one, you'll relocate into an area with no friends, no time to make any (a.k.a zero social life), a regular six figure income but much of it, spent on high rent and living expenses.

Hookers and blow. It can sustain for a while but a crash is inevitable. And then you are an Apple employee in rehab and as long as you respect your colleagues' and bosses' expectations that you be discrete, it's party on, Garth. Oh Molly? Molly?

Blurtman says

Hookers and blow.

I've seen plenty of esc*rts up in Montreal, where it's legal, and I've never ingested more than a couple of Martinis, doing that.

The problem is that the SFBA is one dimensional and hookers/blow or in the dead Google's exec's case, shooting smack, are like the show, "Californication", where there's no balance in life, extremes (esp illegal activities) are the only measure.

Blurtman says

And then you are an Apple employee in rehab and as long as you respect your colleagues' and bosses' expectations that you be discrete, it's party on, Garth. Oh Molly? Molly?

But why not work for a great company with free food?

Rin says

Blurtman says

Hookers and blow.

I've seen plenty of esc*rts up in Montreal, where it's legal, and I've never ingested more than a couple of Martinis, doing that.

The problem is that the SFBA is one dimensional and hookers/blow or in the dead Google's exec's case, shooting smack, are like the show, "Californication", where there's no balance in life, extremes (esp illegal activities) are the only measure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

Peter P says

Software reusability is a myth. You need to have perfect knowledge of the future to design perfectly reusable code. In reality, such libraries or frameworks are either too general to be useful, or too limiting to be useful.

I've been using the same design for User login, page access rights, and basic object nomenclature at least since VS2008.

Once my database model is complete, I can write sql scripts by joining the syscols and the systype to spit me a nicely formatted Code in any language I chose, for any class creation, populate controls with the class objects in any method or routine that I need. By parsing the datatype I can script the code to handle data conversions accordingly.

My shit is in production, while the other morons are still discussing "Architecture".

But what of the mental images you take home on a daily basis?
Staring into degenerative mouths brimming with pus oozing bacteria..
black molars ground to a stub...stale cigar breath exhaled into your face second after second after second...
that has to take a toll on how you interpret the physical world...
the money's good....but.....

Rin says

The best is still dentistry, as their avg work week is something like 36 hours. Of course, the more you work, the more you get paid. I believe that a workaholic can move to Des Moines Iowa, work all the time, and bank over $300K/yr, as a dentist.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-biggest-complaints-employees-have-about-working-at-apple-2012-6?op=1

Even the Glassdoor results don't exactly paint working at Apple in the highest light.

Rin says

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-biggest-complaints-employees-have-about-working-at-apple-2012-6?op=1

Even the Glassdoor results don't exactly paint working at Apple in the highest light.

On average it does though, correct? The streets aren't paved with gold, but, this is the real world.

Rew says

Rin says

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-biggest-complaints-employees-have-about-working-at-apple-2012-6?op=1

Even the Glassdoor results don't exactly paint working at Apple in the highest light.

On average it does though, correct? The streets aren't paved with gold, but, this is the real world.

The point is that not everyone wants to leave their home state, for the SFBA, to work at a company where for the most part, they'll be a hermit for the rest of their lives, only knowing ppl at the office, while spending a ton of money for simple accommodations in the area.

In general, if I wanted to be a recluse, I'd rather it be in a cheaper place like Des Moines Iowa, so that I could pay some $600/month on a 2 bedroom apartment downtown but earn $300K/yr as a dentist, working 70 hours per week, to maximize my earnings. And since being a dentist is really about being able to make conversation w/o getting grossed out at ppl's mouths, it's actually less taxing than being beaten down by crazy executives & directors.

Eventually, I'd want to leave and return to New England but by then, I would have accumulated a decent amount of money and work at a downsized clinic for 24 works per week.

Rin says

The point is that not everyone wants to leave their home state, for the SFBA, to work at a company where for the most part, they'll be a hermit for the rest of their lives, only knowing ppl at the office, while spending a ton of money for simple accommodations in the area.

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the over generalization that that is what an opportunity for employment with Apple is.

Rew says

I disagree with the over generalization that that is what an opportunity for employment with Apple is.

Still, Apple is very different compared to Google and Facebook.

Apple is just like Microsoft with less technology but more followers.

Rin says

In general, if I wanted to be a recluse, I'd rather it be in a cheaper place like Des Moines Iowa, so that I could pay some $600/month on a 2 bedroom apartment downtown but earn $300K/yr as a dentist, working 70 hours per week, to maximize my earnings. And since being a dentist is really about being able to make conversation w/o getting grossed out at ppl's mouths, it's actually less taxing than being beaten down by crazy executives & directors.

This is generally a valid point, but don't forget that it also depends on timing. There are plenty of long-time employees who made a significant extra amount of $$ with shares and options granted. If you joined your favorite tech co. now and discount further share price appreciation in light of an imminent correction, then your point holds.

mell says

This is generally a valid point, but don't forget that it also depends on timing. There are plenty of long-time employees who made a significant extra amount of $$ with shares and options granted. If you joined your favorite tech co. now and discount further share price appreciation in light of an imminent correction, then your point holds.

One of the key important factors here is the lack of a person's ability, to control his own time. This is also evident among junior analysts on Wall St, who're pretty much, at the beck and call of the seniors at the investment banks.

Thus, many in those program attendants get completely burnt out, by the end of year number two. The problem is that if these are not prop traders, chances are, they only made a couple of 100K, during those two years of working 100 hour workweeks. The end result is that they're neither on their way up in banking nor off to Harvard B-school.

Likewise, I'd known refugees from Silicon Valley, who'd echoed similar sentiments and went back to school for healthcare and such. And a big part of SV's problem is the social isolation and the fact that they'd re-located from a more social atmosphere, like their college town in Texas or Massachusetts. At least many Wall Street juniors, have friends and family in the northeast corridor, and that helps in alleviating the craziness.