patrick.net

freak80 says

"Hard work" doesn't mean anything. Illegal immigrants work far harder than most of us could ever imagine. And they barely make enough to survive.

Capitalism rewards bargaining power, it has little to do with "hard work."

The far-right narrative that "hard work guarantees success" is just a sneaky way of saying "anyone who is poor and/or isn't a millionaire is just a lazy bum." Of course some jerks (like Honest Abe) are willing to say it outright.

1.) No one says hard work guarantees anything. What they do say is that you can't achieve without hard work. Lots of people work hard, fail, learn from those failures, work hard again using that knowledge. Those types are more likely to achieve and succeed.

2.) Many illegal immigrants don't work for shit. Some do. But they VERY often do work that either isn't in much demand or they do work that just about anyone else can do. Either way, its in low paying jobs requiring few advanced skills. As such they get paid little. An illegal immigrants work ethic will tend to not get them very far financially because they don't possess skills that others will pay much for, and because they can't necessarily enter the business world themselves due to their illegal status.

thomaswong.1986 says

New Renter says

And died in droves. Yep, sounds like a good ol time!

LOL... myth.. what are you doing in San Jose.. how did you get here.. how did others

get here... ?

Are you kidding? what is the population around here that can trace their lineage back to the 19th century? Most people in California can trace their family history to at most the 1950s, not the 1850s

...but your right, cholera, smallpox all just a scary stories the pioneers told their kids. the natives never attacked, the Donner party itself was just an urban legend started by AF in 1973.

thomaswong.1986 says

New Renter says

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, that without our inventing semiconductors, storage and software France would have nothing?

you cant have the Internet with out the 3 high tech products above(Semi, storage, SW)

Cant be done without it..!

New Renter says

Glad we agree on that point. I will also point out Marsilles has the global HQ of Eurocopter, Airbus HQ in Toulouse, Renault, PSA Peugeot, Michelin all French. Hell even the most high tech car in the world, the Bugatti Veryon is made in France.

yes.. they did very well in many different industries.. its just Semi/Storage/SW wasnt their thing.

they had that Minitel .. that was an advancement for sure.. so what went wrong ?

Maybe but most of that isn't manufactured here either - that's done in Asia.

So no the internet isn't their thing, just as a real nuclear program, good high speed rail, futbol, mimes, and Jerry Lewis's humor isn't our thing.

Anyway its a bit disingenuous to pit France alone against the US. Its fairer to compare the US to all of Europe or say California to France.

On that note go check out the Rhone valley. Seriously, it makes California wine country look like a cheezy wannabe. The superrich Chinese are buying up French vineyards as if they were property in the RBA.

Re: how rich got that way.
I believe that the list should also have included "had brains".
There are plenty of stupid people who have made millions, e.g athletes, actors, etc who have lost it all from lack of brains.
Also, people who have brains like Steve Jobs have gotten rich, or Woz if you prefer.

The other rich are those who inherited their wealth. They are not always smart and sometimes lose their money over time.

Rich who are self made are sometimes fun to be around. They're generally happy and have a positive outlook on things.

I gotta point out something else thats a common theme in these sorts of threads.

Most millionaires(or rich/wealthy people) did not inherit that money. Of course I can point to those who have, but mostly wealthy and high income people are self made(though they may have been born into situations providing an inherent advantage).

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_110333.html

"2. Millionaires Just Inherited Their Money
According to Thomas J. Stanley's book, "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy," only 20% of millionaires inherited their riches. The other 80% are what you'd call nouveau riche: first-generation millionaires who earned their cash on their own. Many millionaires simply worked, saved, and lived within their means to generate their wealth -- think accountants and managers: regular people going to work every day. Most millionaires didn't get their riches overnight when a rich relative died -- they worked for the money."

I think some of you very left wing leaners need to go spend a few years playing poker...Commerce Casino in LA is best, starting at the $600 buy in No Limit Hold Em or the $20-40 Limit Hold em, but Bay 101 works as well and offers the same game. The reason I say this is that a LOT of the players are business owners who have done well...at least well enough to manage their companies only part time and also to be able to blow $10-50K a year or so playing poker. So basically some degenerates who can't really afford those games, a few pros although this low end a game makes for a rough lifestyle in expensive locations, and at least a few players per table who are gonna lose, but have the income level to sustain those loses.

Its an enlightening experience to say the least. You'll meet people you never would have otherwise. Heck, one guy at Commerce that plays a bit lower is the guy who actually started El Pollo Loco, before it was a chain. I can't guess at the political leanings...most people don't discuss politics at the table. From the guys that are pro's, the leaning is libertarian, but there are people from all over the gamut. No socialists, no far right wing idealogues. Poker is about as libertarian a game as you can find.....each player is free to play whatever amount of money they desire, each player is free to play whatever strategy they see fit.

What you will find is that the guys that built up a business....in each and every case it required very very hard work. Hard work above and beyond what most people call hard work. Most people are entirely unfamiliar with 100-120 hour work weeks, and if suggested, dismiss it by saying "oh, im not giving up my life for work". And yeah, much like poker where the correct strategies will win in the long run, on any given day, luck can turn things one way or the other. Luck is a non zero factor, although in the long run, its very heavily mitigated...at poker and at hard work.

Of course, that hard work sometimes results in failure. I know that lifestyle wasn't for me at all. So after floundering a bit after graduating college, I found a govt job requiring my degree and have not looked back. I'm very happy. I make enough to have a roof over my head, a car I love, and in general I enjoy my life. The 100 hour workweek is absolutely not for me. I accept the financial limitations this places on me. But I do not begrudge those who choose to place an emphasis on work and income. Thats their prerogative.

I teach in a town that is filled with CEOs, executives, and people of inherited wealth. It's easily one of the richest towns in the nation. It's funny. They'll go to war to try to limit the teacher's pay in town if it means they pay $100 less on their property taxes.

The worst of the worst experience I've had was when I tutored one of the kids in town. I walk into a mansion to do the tutoring. Mother tells me, she forgot to go to the bank and will settle up with me on my next visit. She stiffed me and refused to ever return my calls.

Now I'm not trying to label people with a paint brush, because I've met plenty of great rich folks in town. But seriously, a good portion of these people get where they are because they manipulate their way to the top screwing everyone over in the process. Everyone has seen the useless people making high six figures in the various companies that they've worked for. They didn't get there with their good spiritual faith and hard work.

theoakman says

But seriously, a good portion of these people get where they are because they manipulate their way to the top screwing everyone over in the process. Everyone has seen the useless people making high six figures in the various companies that they've worked for. They didn't get there with their good spiritual faith and hard work.

in my neck of the woods, no one screwed anyone.. how could they ? they started as one or two man show which ultimately grew and hired and delegated job tasks to others. Alot depended on good faith and hard work. And Santa Clara became known as Silicon Valley, Im sure there are many similar example in other global metros.

clambo says

Re: how rich got that way.

I believe that the list should also have included "had brains".

There are plenty of stupid people who have made millions, e.g athletes, actors, etc who have lost it all from lack of brains.

Also, people who have brains like Steve Jobs have gotten rich, or Woz if you prefer.

focus.. your focus will determine your reality...

all the real successful people had this as did Jobs.. even when he left apple he found a new
idea/project to focus on .. and there he made Next Cube with new OS which became the new
OS for Apple...

thomaswong.1986 says

theoakman says

But seriously, a good portion of these people get where they are because they manipulate their way to the top screwing everyone over in the process. Everyone has seen the useless people making high six figures in the various companies that they've worked for. They didn't get there with their good spiritual faith and hard work.

in my neck of the woods, no one screwed anyone.. how could they ? they started as one or two man show which ultimately grew and hired and delegated job tasks to others. Alot depended on good faith and hard work. And Santa Clara became known as Silicon Valley, Im sure there are many similar example in other global metros.

I'm not talking about people that start their own companies. They pretty much have a right to do what they want without judgement within their own company.

Most of the people that I'm talking about enter a giant pharma corporation or wall street firm after their parents pay for an ivy league school. They never really accomplish much yet climb the ladder.

theoakman says

the woods, no one screwed anyone.. how could they ? they started as one or two man show which ultimately grew and hired and delegated job tasks to others. Alot depended on good faith and hard work. And Santa Clara became known as Silicon Valley, Im sure there are many similar example in other global metros.

I think you are tainted in your view of things and being very untruthful, perhaps not by intent.

Its why I stated the conditions I did. A poker table. There is no more open environment. You must use judgement. And despite the propensity for bluffing in poker, most people are not lying when they discuss their personal life at the table.

theoakman says

Everyone has seen the useless people making high six figures in the various companies that they've worked for.

I think this is sometimes known as the Art of MBA-ology.

Dan8267 says

Seriously, Honest Abe, I'd like to know why. It's not like Mark fucking Zuckerberg has created more wealth than Berners-Lee. Explain why one is rich and the other isn't. Because to the rest of us, it seems that Berners-Lee produced far more, but Zuckerfuck was far more conniving and manipulative, backstabbing everyone on the way to the top. I guess backstabbing is the "hard work" you keep referring to that separates us peasants from the Zuckerfucks and Blankfeins of the world.

Jaw-droppingly AWESOME response.

intergenerational resources & luck are the differentiating factors between a hard working 400k-aire and a multimillionaire, generally speaking.

YOU CAN NOT BE WHAT YOU RESENT. Unsuccessful people are too busy hating successful people to learn what makes successful people successful.

EInvestor says

YOU CAN NOT BE WHAT YOU RESENT. Unsuccessful people are too busy hating successful people to learn what makes successful people successful.

Fake it till you make it. No Stinkin' Thinkin'. You too can be a millionaire if you just keep sharing this great opportunity at Amway/Quixtar will all your friends and neighbors. Direct personal marketing is the way of the future. We're all going to be diamonds!

edited to remove obnoxious CAPS.

Leona Helmsley was too busy, uh, too busy, uh, too busy showing everyone how to style canines and be frugal with their cash to resent people more successful than her.

theoakman says

Most of the people that I'm talking about enter a giant pharma corporation or wall street firm after their parents pay for an ivy league school. They never really accomplish much yet climb the ladder.

you think many who become successful think about these ivy league types.. why the distractions ?

EInvestor says

YOU CAN NOT BE WHAT YOU RESENT. Unsuccessful people are too busy hating successful people to learn what makes successful people successful.

this is so true .... too many especial today are too blind by their hate to realize it..

Let's stop the irrational hatred on Ivy Leaguers.

The Ivy League means recruitment for management consulting firms, financial services industries, DC/govt committees, law and medical schools. That comprises roughly 70+% of Ivy graduates.

With that stated, if one attends the Ivies and plays the game to become a Rainmaker in the aforementioned areas, then sure, they're rich, even if their origins were once middle class.

Unfortunately, what a lot of ppl forget is that Hank Paulson's grandchildren, also attend Ivies, and thus, they don't have to work all that hard, to become investment bankers or simply, junior partners in a some financial company.

So yes, it's better to be born rich and well connected.

Rin says

So yes, it's better to be born rich and well connected.

No, it's better to be born poor and on welfare.

At least according to Call it Crazy.

egads101 says

what a bunch of crap from two arrogant and stupid assholes!

Roberto.. you are a credit to the education you received from UC Berzerkeley..

and the contribution you have given to society.. which amounts to zero !

Some people live in poverty deliberately. To wit:

http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/13/20923154-living-on-5000-a-year-on-purpose-meet-americas-intentional-poor?lite

freak80 says

Rin says

So yes, it's better to be born rich and well connected.

No, it's better to be born poor and on welfare.

At least according to Call it Crazy.

Yeah, who wants to inherit millions, when you have a once-in-a-lifetime chance your EBT card will malfunction and let you buy $500 of Mac and Cheese.

thunderlips11 says

Yeah, who wants to inherit millions, when you have a once-in-a-lifetime
chance your EBT card will malfunction and let you buy $500 of Mac and
Cheese.

That's what I daydream about. Although I'd throw in some Ramen noodles too.

I guess the reason I dislike threads like these is because this seems to be a theme that some folks on the right like to project: That somehow people on the left are all disdainful of those with wealth, and that those whom are on welfare or otherwise in a compromised position are undeserving of any assistance-aka- Ronald Reagan speak.

The background rhetoric that those whom came up with this crap for the right-wing constituency to lap up is basically: " Shut up and don't question " The system". In other words, come up with a way to make the base look elsewhere for a place to put their blame for their own failures and in this case, what better way to do so than blame people or groups who can't say anything back. Meanwhile the folks in the back room get to do whatever.

I could care less if people are stinkin' loaded. Perhaps its because I also do fairly well financially, but I also worked for peanuts for years at around $7 an hour in the Bay Area, which is NOT easy to do. So I've been there, done that, and have done well for myself. But I don't have disdain for those who make a lot less or work at minimum wage jobs. After my experiences working at restaurants and big box stores the people who still work at such places have my deep respect because that is not easy work and it doesn't pay much.

And so it is a total mystery to me why some on the right hold this caustic view of others who might not be doing as well financially an then make bland, general statements insomuch that they all must be jealous of the wealthy and also at the same time on social programs or whatever.

Sorry, but the sort of country we founded is a Republic in the form of a social democracy. That has always meant that yes- taxation is collected and used for the advancement of the greater good- meaning all of us. That means everything from battleships, freeways, pay for politicians in office, and yes- social welfare. Its all part of the same package. So why there are those who focus only and ironically only on the very programs that either currently or someday will benefit THEMSELVES is a mystery to me.

Of course there are poor people who work hard. The drywall don't hang itself. The ditches don't dig themselves. Those trash cans that get put out Thursday evening don't empty themselves. The Big Mac Meal is not created wholly by machine.

Lots of these jobs involve a lot of hard work, but pay like shit and have no upward mobility.

thunderlips11 says

freak80 says

Rin says

So yes, it's better to be born rich and well connected.

No, it's better to be born poor and on welfare.

At least according to Call it Crazy.

Yeah, who wants to inherit millions, when you have a once-in-a-lifetime chance your EBT card will malfunction and let you buy $500 of Mac and Cheese.

Man, I screwed this up. Make that 500 pounds of Yams!

thunderlips11 says

Those trash cans that get put out Thursday evening don't empty themselves.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Lockout-by-Oakland-garbage-company-Replacement-2553925.php

Some of the jobs actually pay decently (even non-illegal construction workers are paid ok), so it is more of a negative social stigma, fuck that stigma. Even emptying trash-cans and cleaning in offices in San Francisco is a relatively well paid job with great benefits (for the whole family), but I hardly ever see born Americans doing these jobs. And it is likely healthier to empty garbage cans than sitting at a desk all day. Of course with all the raging inflation these jobs are barely enough to sustain a family (single is no problem), so ideally both have to work.

The thread header says nothing about what you state.
You are simply projecting.

egads101 says

so... rich people think they are better than other people???

Then it must be the truth!

It just seems that way to you because you have none of the traits for success listed in the thread header.

wave9x says

Do you really expect rich people to admit they got their wealth by screwing others over, being greedy and selfish, and skirting the law?

Edward, your suppositions are completely wrong.

You place incorrect emphasis on the working poor and lower middle class, people whom rarely receive government benefits, in your argument.

Generally as a single person, $8/hr full time means you do not qualify for any assistence and you're usually paying federal and state income tax. I actually don't believe too many would ever be opposed to a temporary term(say five years) of medical, education, and housing subsidy for these individuals. Of course accompanied by wide scale cutback and termination of all benefits for those that don't work at all.

But that's never been proposed I don't think.

So you see no value in asking successful people what traits they think they have that made them successful.
Whether you agree with what they say, or not, there is always value in listening to others opinions.

But it seems that you and Harry don't like to listen to opinions, you both just love to shove 20000 pages of law up the nations ass without giving anyone time to read and comprehend it first...all because you had a two week window to do it way back when..

With pelosi's marbled eyes popping out of her skull as she exclaimed like a child at christmas...“But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it....”

The law passed using reconciliation, a budget-process mechanism intended to reconcile differences in Congress’s budget proposals and carry out deficit-reduction instructions. Instead, Senate Democrats hijacked the process to pass Obamacare with a simple and purely partisan majority. No other major social-policy change—not the Civil Rights Act, not Social Security, not Medicare—was successful at becoming anchored in American policy and law with absolutely zero bipartisan support.

edvard2 says

And therefor this post was totally pointless.

SoftShell says

So you see no value in asking successful people what traits they think they have that made them successful.

Whether you agree with what they say, or not, there is always value in listening to others opinions.

Agreed.

theoakman says

Now I'm not trying to label people with a paint brush, because I've met plenty of great rich folks in town. But seriously, a good portion of these people get where they are because they manipulate their way to the top screwing everyone over in the process

and screw they do. they famously even like to screw over the caretakers of their children, parents and favorite pets, not to mention thjeir cabbies and watresses.

example 1: i hailed a cab in sf that had just dropped off ex -mayor willie brown. cabbie told me that for a $5.80 fare slick willie gave the cabbie $6.00 and told him to keep the change!

example 2: sitting in a famous sf resaurtant next to a diane finestein party of 6, which included her uc regent, war-profiteering, real estate-developering, post office fire- selling husband, mr r blum, who removed himself away from the table to pay the check. the waiter showed me the credit card slip after the difi party left.
mr blummer left a whopping 12% tip!!!

many rich, not all of course, but many are different from the rest of us, in that they think serving them in the style to which they are accostomed should be thrill enough. they feel that money compensation is such a crass and vulgar expression of gratitude for the privilege of wiping their stinky assholes!

Ah, people who supported GW Bush and Reagan are hectoring the rest of us about the extreme dangers of (a) deficit spending and (b) passing huge legislation in a hurry without reading it.

It must be a day ending in "ay" - all's right with the world.

Happy Monday, Tovarischi!

coriacci1 says

example 1: i hailed a cab in sf that had just dropped off ex -mayor willie brown. cabbie told me that for a $5.80 fare slick willie gave the cabbie $6.00 and told him to keep the change!

example 2: sitting in a famous sf resaurtant next to a diane finestein party of 6, which included her uc regent, war-profiteering, real estate-developering, post office fire- selling husband, mr r blum, who removed himself away from the table to pay the check. the waiter showed me the credit card slip after the difi party left.

mr blummer left a whopping 12% tip!!!

many rich, not all of course,

The examples you give are much wealthier than millionaires and also famous, no doubt a lot of of obnoxious brats (hint: insider trading). But there are also a lot of hard working American's who started out small and maybe achieved millionaire-hood by now - which buys you a mortgage-free medium-sized shack in a middle-class neighborhood in SF. Maybe this should be named success-factors to achieve a foothold and stability in the upper middle-class segment ;)

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

Bingo. My first business during undergrad years required 7 day weeks, tons of phone time and working through the night on a regular basis, even on Sundays which made me feel like a witless grind. I could see people my age staggering home or getting on the train going out and having lives that did not involve endless lists and lists of lists. Sigh. Years later, and a couple of countries away, in New Zealand, between enterprises I had convinced the STA office in Dunedin that I was a student and got a travel ID that I could abuse to get half off commuter flights and to save money I would walk to the airport. I forget where but I think it was Greymouth, as I remember the locals had trouble with flooding at the time, and as these things are often developed, cars and pedestrian traffic had to travel through an adjacent industrial park. Wouldn't you know it, every corner office was lit. It was long after dark. Sunday.

Were you running small arms to central African warlords???

The one factor that is glaringly left out is:

LUCK.

I'm not detracting from any of the other qualities that lend themselves to success.

However, anyone who leaves out luck is being dishonest with themselves or bullshitting you.

This applies to myself as well. I'm not technically a millionaire (unlike some of our paper millionaires on this board) but I do have an excellent paying job. Yes I worked hard, studied, sacrificed, etc etc, but I did have a good bit of luck on my side to land me where I am.

Facebooksux says

The one factor that is glaringly left out is:

LUCK.

I'm not detracting from any of the other qualities that lend themselves to success.

However, anyone who leaves out luck is being dishonest with themselves or bullshitting you.

This applies to myself as well. I'm not technically a millionaire (unlike some of our paper millionaires on this board) but I do have an excellent paying job. Yes I worked hard, studied, sacrificed, etc etc, but I did have a good bit of luck on my side to land me where I am.

Agreed.

coriacci1 says

many rich, not all of course, but many are different from the rest of us, in that they think serving them in the style to which they are accostomed should be thrill enough

I'm thinking of the Andre Agassi anecdote about Pete Sampras tipping the valet $1.

Google "Steve Garvey deadbeat" for more of this sort of entertainment. He patiently explained to his personal assistant that you don't have to pay home contractors, baby sitters, etc., since such people don't have a lot of pull in the legal system, and you can always find the next one to work for free. I'm sure that day care, plumbers, and other middle-class went into their field with open eyes, and should know the risks - it's their fault.

A contractor on my house had an anecdote about a rich fvcker in Malibu who underwent a huge renovation, spread the work among multiple contractors, and then told each of them individually that there was no evidence they had ever worked on his house, and that they were welcome to try to get their money through the court system.

Many or most wealthy people are not like this, but, as an HOA advisor who worked with multiple developers once told me, you should assume when getting a wealthy person to pay for something that's between $5K and $12K, that you may only be getting $5K, as many of them figure that, below $12K, most of the plebes can't afford the legal fees and will be happy not to have to hassle with small claims court.

Bad example. Willie may have had only 6 bucks in his pocket at the time. Or maybe the cabbie was rude to him...lots of reasons not to tip a larger amount.

coriacci1 says

example 1: i hailed a cab in sf that had just dropped off ex -mayor willie brown. cabbie told me that for a $5.80 fare slick willie gave the cabbie $6.00 and told him to keep the change!

Bad example.
Maybe, just maybe the food and/or service sucked. Why should anyone tip poor service?

coriacci1 says

example 2: sitting in a famous sf resaurtant next to a diane finestein party of 6, which included her uc regent, war-profiteering, real estate-developering, post office fire- selling husband, mr r blum, who removed himself away from the table to pay the check. the waiter showed me the credit card slip after the difi party left.

mr blummer left a whopping 12% tip!!!