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Why Should I Vote?

By freak80 following x   2012 Aug 7, 12:30am 35,374 views   127 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Why should I vote?

One party says I "hate" just because I believe that marriage should be defined as one man and one woman. If they had their way, I'd be prosecuted under "hate crimes" laws and put in jail.

The other party wants me enslaved to a permanent aristocracy.

For me, a vote for either party is a vote to slit my own throat.

How did we get to this point in America?

Maybe Trey Parker and Matt Stone will save us.

#crime

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88   curious2   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 9, 4:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

freak80 says

You provided the link to a court decision of a state.

...and links to the laws of your own state, and examples of whole countries (Canada, Hungary).

You never answer my questions, and instead you revert to your joke question about whether you've stopped beating your wife. Have you?

89   freak80   ignore (4)   2012 Aug 9, 4:13am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

curious2 says

Should there be a religious test to marriage, i.e. if you don't pray often enough your marriage gets taken away?

My position is very clear to anyone reading this discussion: the government shouldn't be granting or taking away anyone's marriage. They shouldn't be in the business at all.

If we want "civil domestic contracts" simply in the interest of forming "households" then fine. I have no problem with that.

I'm not a fan of people suing churches just because they won't recognize certain "marriages."

How can I put it anymore straightforward than that?

Go ahead and have the "last word."

90   someone else   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 9, 4:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Dan8267 says

Is it possible to include the "c" parameter when you quote a post? Also, is the "c" parameter always the same as the "comment" parameter? If so, why would it be necessary?

The "c" parameter should be automatically included when you quote a post. If it does not happen, please send me an example so I can reproduce and fix it.

Yes, it is always the same as the "comment" parameter. The reason I need to put it in the URL twice is that the hash tag parameter (#comment-854783 for example) cannot be detected on the server side.

91   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 9, 4:56am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Indeed, why?

Both Romney and Obama are worse for economy.

Both are bad for human rights.

Both are sure to cause another disaster in Afghanistan.

Both will go on destroying American middle class and anything productive here.

There is only one difference: Romney went to Israel and put American interests on sale there. With Romney as a president now we'll get a guaranteed new war in Iran, which will turn to a disaster unseen yet. (Will end up much worse than Vietnam).

But than again, we are in California? Will our vote change anything? Obviously NO. So why should we vote?

92   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 9, 5:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

curious2 says

Please read the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and section 10 of New York's Domestic Relations Law (which defines marriage as a civil contract), and reconsider your statement about marriage. Whatever your religious views might be, they do not excuse denying other Americans the equal protection of the laws. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts, nor can they be made strangers to the laws of their own country.

I have a question: civil contracts may include more than two parties. So is polygamist marriage is illegal? Why? Why nobody care about the rights of polygamists?

93   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 9, 5:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        


The "c" parameter should be automatically included when you quote a post. If it does not happen, please send me an example so I can reproduce and fix it.

I think I've copied URLs from the user comment history page, http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=8267&submit=Search

On that page, the URLs in the date fields after each post do not have the "c" parameter, just the "comment" anchor. The parameter should be added to those links.


Yes, it is always the same as the "comment" parameter. The reason I need to put it in the URL twice is that the hash tag parameter (#comment-854783 for example) cannot be detected on the server side.

Makes sense. There is a way to handle that though. If you have a HTTP request handler, you could query the HttpRequest object's URL parameter and determine if the comment anchor is present and treat it like a request parameter. That would make the c parameter unnecessary altogether.

94   someone else   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 9, 6:28am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Dan8267 says

I think I've copied URLs from the user comment history page, http://patrick.net/comments.php?a=8267&submit=Search

On that page, the URLs in the date fields after each post do not have the "c" parameter, just the "comment" anchor. The parameter should be added to those links.

You are right! Thanks for telling me about that. Fixed now.

Dan8267 says

you could query the HttpRequest object's URL parameter and determine if the comment anchor is present

No, I've checked the network traffic with tcpdump and the comment anchor is never even sent to the server. So there is no way to use the hash tag alone to find the right page of comments. But if you don't have the hash tag, then the browser does not jump to the right point. So I am forced to have both the c parameter in the URL (to find the right page of comments) and the hash tag (to make the browser scroll down to that comment).

95   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2012 Aug 9, 6:48am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

freak80 says

If we want "civil domestic contracts" simply in the interest of forming "households" then fine. I have no problem with that.

I'm not a fan of people suing churches just because they won't recognize certain "marriages."

I like that. Determining whether you're forming a household or not is entirely up to the individual. What you call it is up to the individual. Something like the common law marriage stuff, if two unrelated people live together for X years, they are a couple.

If one wants to have a religious ceremony or secular ritual to formalize it in one's own mind, that's one's own decision.

96   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 9, 7:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        


No, I've checked the network traffic with tcpdump and the comment anchor is never even sent to the server.

Ah, yeah, that's right. The hash component of the page URL, everything following the # sign, is not sent from the browser to the server and is meant only for the browser to process. That's part of the W3C standard. Forgot about that.

97   freak80   ignore (4)   2012 Aug 9, 7:27am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

I like that. Determining whether you're forming a household or not is entirely up to the individual. What you call it is up to the individual. Something like the common law marriage stuff, if two unrelated people live together for X years, they are a couple.

Seems fair to me.

98   epinpb   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 2:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Write in Ron Paul on the ballot.
I am.

99   curious2   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 4:56am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

freak80 says

My position is very clear to anyone reading this discussion: the government shouldn't be granting or taking away anyone's marriage. They shouldn't be in the business at all... How can I put it anymore straightforward than that?
Go ahead and have the "last word."

Actually I agree with that position, but it wasn't clear (to me at least) from what you wrote earlier. To the contrary, at the beginning of the thread you wrote the Democrats' support for the equal protection of the marriage laws prevented you from voting for them. While most voters support marriage equality, including the vast majority of registered Democrats and most independents, you seemed to view the Democratic Party's support as an unforgivable sin. In contrast, you did not appear to blame the Republican Party for promising to amend the Constitution of the United States for the sole purpose of re-defining marriage to exclude gay couples. Among major Republican candidates, only Ron Paul had the courage to say no to that, and this whole debate illustrates the importance of limiting government in the way he advocated (and the founders believed). The less we involve government in things, the less we need to agree on. This is what the founders saw as well: by keeping their various religious beliefs and disbeliefs out of the picture, they didn't need to agree whose was the "one true god" (if any), so people couldn't be easily divided and misruled the way people are now.

I do observe that on this particular topic you seem to have a Maher-bubble that facts bounce off of, as pebbles bounce off armor plate (to borrow from the Alternet article above). Surveys since 2010 have shown that most voters support marriage equality, so it is unsurprising that a major party would adopt a position that most voters agree with; your assertion that it prevents you from voting for them is an anomaly, and your statement that it narrows the Democrats' base to "the Castro district" is demonstrably incorrect. Moreover, marriage, including same-sex marriage, has been around longer than any of the currently popular religions, so there is no basis for any current religion to claim ownership of "traditional marriage" or exclusive authority to define it. We have a legislative and judicial process to define terms, though I agree some terms become too personal and it would be better to keep the government out altogether. (I also feel this way about healthcare, for example, as to which different people have very different ideas.) In the past I liked many of your comments and nearly always agreed with you, but on this topic it appears we must disagree, and again that illustrates the value of limiting government to things people can agree on. It has become too easy for politicians to divide people because 51% stand ready to lock up the other 49%, for any reason or for none, or to take their marriages away, or tax/penalize them for not buying something unless they join an exempted religion (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses). People so divided are easily misruled and exploited.

I will leave the "last word" to quoting the Constitution of the United States: "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

100   gbenson   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 5:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

curious2 says

I will leave the "last word" to quoting the Constitution of the United States: "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Well put curious. And to further the sentiment, if marriage were not a recognized legally binding contract. If marriage did not come with the tax advantages, ability to make life and death medical decisions, etc. Then one could make the 'marriage is a religious instrument' argument.

I got married on a beach in Hawaii, there was no church, no priest, no mention of 'god' in my ceremony, but I am no less 'married'. The plain fact is, marriage is no longer defined by religion, and hasn't been since the inception of this country.

I would also support separating religious ceremonies from legally binding contracts, at least in theory. I qualify my statement because but how would you handle that? Would all current 'marriages' be nullified if we did this? (Since the implication is that religious ceremonies would not be legally recognized)

Does this mean that after your church ceremony, you have to go to the courthouse to take some sort of legally binding oath to codify it? If no, then you are back to implying a religious marriage ceremony has legal implications, which means a gay couple having their own ceremony (religious or not) would be doing something verbatim identical, so why not just call it marriage and be done with it?

As an Atheist, I am totally flummoxed as to why people get so hung up over the word 'marriage'. If two people (regardless of gender), or even multiple people (ie Mormons) want to take an oath that says they dedicate their lives to each other in a loving manner, and they live by those covenants. How is the institution of marriage sullied by this? How does this negatively impact freak and his wife who got married in their church in front of their god?

101   curious2   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 5:43am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

gbenson says

I would also support separating religious ceremonies from legally binding contracts, at least in theory. I qualify my statement because but how would you handle that? Would all current 'marriages' be nullified if we did this? (Since the implication is that religious ceremonies would not be legally recognized) Does this mean that after your church ceremony, you have to go to the courthouse to take some sort of legally binding oath to codify it?

Several countries separate the legal and religious ceremonies. For example, in Argentina, which is ~80% Catholic but respects freedom of religion, most people have two weddings: the legal one which is usually simple, followed by a lavish church celebration. I know people who were married that way years ago, they've been doing it that way so long it's what they mean when they say traditional marriage. I don't know when it started, but there was certainly no need to take away anyone's existing marriage; legislation is generally prospective, i.e. weddings after a certain date require a license but don't require a church ceremony, and then people can choose whether to add the church ceremony. Argentina recognizes same-sex marriage, though presumably if the newlyweds want a religious ceremony afterwards it won't be in a Catholic church.

102   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 7:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Dan8267 says

Personally, I hope all gay couples sue the fuck out of the IRS and US Treasury for overpaid taxes and for penalties and interest for the past 100 years!

What a nonsense!
First of civil unions of the same sex couples are fully recognizes and in terms of taxes treated in the same exact way as married couples. They also may adopt children etc. In short, there is absolutely no civil, financial or other material benefits of marriage.
Second, have you heard of the marriage tax punishment? i.e when both partners have significant income their taxes when filing join tax return are much higher than when filing separately. So, who should sue IRS?

103   CL   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 8:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

michaelsch says

In short, there is absolutely no civil, financial or other material benefits of marriage.

Yes there are. Survivor's benefits. Social Security. Unpaid leave for sick "spouse". End of life decisions. The right not to testify against your "spouse". And more.

104   curious2   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 8:25am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

michaelsch says

First of civil unions of the same sex couples are fully recognizes and in terms of taxes treated in the same exact way as married couples.

That is false. Some states, including California, treat registered domestic partnerships the same as marriage for tax purposes at the state level, but the federal government refuses to do the same. The result is many couples need to prepare three tax returns: (1) state level return on which they are married, (2) federal return as if they were not married, (3) state level return to adjust for the differences.

105   Buster   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 8:47am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CL says

michaelsch says

In short, there is absolutely no civil, financial or other material benefits of marriage.

Yes there are. Survivor's benefits. Social Security. Unpaid leave for sick "spouse". End of life decisions. The right not to testify against your "spouse". And more.

Marriage, according to the US Government Accounting Office, bestows upon the legally married, as of 2004, 1,138 statutory provisions. I have pasted the core of the letter written by the GAO to then Senator Frist of TN.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf

Subject: Defense of Marriage Act: Update to Prior Report

Dear Senator Frist:

The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) provides definitions of “marriage” and “spouse” that
are to be used in construing the meaning of a federal law and, thus, affect the interpretation
of a wide variety of federal laws in which marital status is a factor.
1
In 1997, we issued a
report identifying 1,049 federal statutory provisions classified to the United States Code in
which benefits, rights, and privileges are contingent on marital status or in which marital
status is a factor.
2
In preparing the 1997 report, we limited our search to laws enacted prior
to September 21, 1996, the date DOMA was signed into law. Recently, you asked us to
update our 1997 compilation.
We have identified 120 statutory provisions involving marital status that were enacted
between September 21, 1996, and December 31, 2003. During the same period, 31 statutory
provisions involving marital status were repealed or amended in such a way as to eliminate
marital status as a factor. Consequently, as of December 31, 2003, our research identified a
total of 1,138 federal statutory provisions classified to the United States Code in which
marital status is a factor in determining or receiving benefits, rights, and privileges.

106   Buster   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 8:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

BTW, there isn't a single 'civil union' law or 'domestic partnership' law that bestows even a very tiny fraction of 1,138 city or state rights and benefits, and ZERO federal ones.

107   bdrasin   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 8:54am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

freak80 says

One party says I "hate" just because I believe that marriage should be defined as one man and one woman. If they had their way, I'd be prosecuted under "hate crimes" laws and put in jail.

No one on the left is going to prosecute you or anyone else for holding any views on marriage, or from stating those views, as long as you aren't assaulting or injuring (actually, not figuratively) anyone. What will happen, and what I think you don't want (based on your comments on other threads), is that they will bring about changes which will make it more difficult for you to pretend that gays don't exist.

For example: in 37 states, you can fire someone just for being gay. I'd like that to change.

108   MB   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 9:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Silly arguments.
Those looking for the supposed equal protection under the law please tell me why I am not able to officially enter into marriage with more than one individual? Who is the state, you , or anyone else to detemine who I can love or who I can commit myself to? Go ahead and throw out the argument that you are just looking to be equal as society and laws are today, but that does not address your very argument that would be just as applicable to the question I ask above. The acronym that defines much of the groups fighting for this equality, GLBT, incorporates "bisexual" which should defintely include an additional argument for multiple marriages. Why isn't that part of the agenda? Too much too early? Someone please help define logically why I shouldn't assume that the efforts to legalize gay marriage are just a farce, since it really isn't including equal protection for so many that have existed for so long in societies even before this country was formed? What about our bisexual friends?
Help me understand?

109   curious2   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 9:43am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MB says

Silly arguments.

Yes, it is silly of certain people to keep returning to the polygamy non-argument as if it were somehow an argument against same-sex marriage. It has been addressed earlier in the thread, but instead you troll by repeating it ad nauseam. The short answer to your "questions," as if they were really questions, is that 2=2 but 3>2. Equal means equal, equal protection means equal protection, 2=2, 3>2.

110   MB   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 10:02am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Wrong. Not returning, just confirming. Your bisexual friend could only have one marriage at a time then? Or, based on your short answer and to be clear, they don't fall under equal protection? Since 3>2, that is of course if they only had one person they loved of each gender and wanted to commit themself to both and not more.
It isn't an argument against same-sex marriage, it is an argument against goverment dictating anything related to your own morals. It appears that it is indeed not part of the agenda, because the basis of your response to my inquiry is "don't worry about that, it isn't an issue." I argue that it is indeed part of the issue and in the same sense the bisexuals have the same rights as all should have, which includes a 1=1 relationship with man and man, as well as the 1=1 relationship with where it is a man and woman.
Its the old nature discussion, where animals aren't meant to have one mate. Why are humans different? If religion didn't promote marriage for life, your fight would be the greater fight of the government controlling any of our morality. All the same rights are given, but until all are forced to change beliefs there is no end. Don't worry, I understand, I have studied cultures and histories. Nothing new here...please move on.

111   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 10, 11:02am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

michaelsch says

First of civil unions of the same sex couples are fully recognizes and in terms of taxes treated in the same exact way as married couples.

Buster says

Actually, civil unions did not eliminate the harmful effects of discrimination. Actually, I am legally married, but paid over $5,000 more in taxes this year because my marriage is not recognized by the federal government. I also do not have the 1,100+ civil rights that are bestowed upon straight married couples. Civil Unions may have given token lip service and a few token rights to gay people. I don't want special rights as the christianists shout about. I simply want equal rights. Until I do I will not stop bitching so expect more. Simply put, if you don't want a gay marriage, don't get one.

Since Buster actually lives this shit, I'm more likely to have confidence in his correctness. What I've heard on NPR also collaborates what Buster said.

112   Buster   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 10, 1:58pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MB says

Those looking for the supposed equal protection under the law please tell me why I am not able to officially enter into marriage with more than one individual?

As with the current laws of the US, NO ONE is allowed to enter into marriages of more than two people. Gay people are not fighting for rights that NO ONE has. We simply wish to have the same rights and privileges that straight people currently have.

If you wish to enter into 3 way or more marriages, you will have to join the Mormons with this battle.

There are thousands of reasons why this is not allowed as the entire English case law would have to be rewritten to accommodate such multiple, more than 2 adult, relationships, e.g. who, upon the death of a spouse, gets to inherit, who gets custody of the kids, the cash, the house, how is social security and medicare benefits apportioned. There are no easy answers . As for same sex marriage, all the laws currently on the books would simply transfer over to couples married who are gay.

Using these examples alone it is very clear that this is a bullshit argument against same sex marriage. Of course, like I said before, if this is what you wish, you are entitled to take your case to the courts.

113   CL   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 2:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Further, why do these "slippery slope" type arguments persist? We can allow citizens to own guns but not missiles, right?

Therefore, we can allow gay marriage without polygamy and bestiality. It stops there. That is it. We do it all the time.

114   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 2:59am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CL says

Further, why do these "slippery slope" type arguments persist? We can allow citizens to own guns but not missiles, right?

Therefore, we can allow gay marriage without polygamy and bestiality. It stops there. That is it. We do it all the time.

Do you compare polygamy to owning missiles?
I would say we can allow polygamy without gay marriage and bestiality.

115   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 3:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Well, the idea of state defining, registering, and enforcing marriage is all non-sense. It did not exist before the 16th century when Protestants invented it.

Prior to this there were all kind of recognized and honored marriages including Jewish (blessing of the woman to belong to a male), Christian (blessed by the Church, but never required) etc. In general, the Church considered marriage a natural sacrament valid without any ceremony or registration.

Unfortunately, modern marriage mostly follows the Calvinist approach, which required state registration. It is based on the idea of completely fallen human nature, which has to be fully controled by authorities. All we need is just to get rid of this crazy idea.

Governments should not be involved in this business at all. If necessary, tax or whatever social benefits should be linked to raising family or maintaining a household. If any society (religious, or local, or any other is interested in blessing, celebrating and recording marriages, it's up to their rules. )

116   freak80   ignore (4)   2012 Aug 13, 3:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Ah Calvinism. And the periodic reactions against it.

The dynamic at the heart and soul of American religion/culture/philosophy for the last 400 years.

117   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 3:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Buster says

There are thousands of reasons why this is not allowed as the entire English case law would have to be rewritten to accommodate such multiple, more than 2 adult, relationships, e.g. who, upon the death of a spouse, gets to inherit, who gets custody of the kids, the cash, the house, how is social security and medicare benefits apportioned. There are no easy answers . As for same sex marriage, all the laws currently on the books would simply transfer over to couples married who are gay.

In other words it isn't about justice or equal personal rights but about legal convenience.
Well, even this does not work well. Look at all legal cases, in which two former wifes (or a real wife and an officially registered one) are fighting for inheritance. One hears about such cases every day. Just look at today news:
http://www.loansafe.org/legal-tussle-over-thomas-kinkades-multi-million-estate-heads-back-to-court

118   Tenpoundbass   ignore (13)   2012 Aug 13, 3:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Funny the only party even using the word hate are the Liberals.

119   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 13, 4:00am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CL says

Further, why do these "slippery slope" type arguments persist? We can allow citizens to own guns but not missiles, right?

Therefore, we can allow gay marriage without polygamy and bestiality. It stops there. That is it. We do it all the time.

I agree that such slippery slopes arguments are dumb as they have been empirically disproved by interracial marriages and other instances.

However, why should polygamy be illegal? I'm not in favor of it, but then again, I'm not in favor of traditional marriage. Why should marriage be a legal institution at all? And if it is, why should polygamy be illegal?

All objections to polygamy and gay marriage are based on religious beliefs. Last time I checked, America wasn't a theocracy.

Now obviously bestiality can't be recognized because as far as the state is concern, marriage is simply a contract and a legal structure. You can't enter a contract with a horse. You can enter a contract with multiple adult humans.

120   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 4:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MB says

It isn't an argument against same-sex marriage, it is an argument against goverment dictating anything related to your own morals.

Exactly!!! The ugly thing about all this same-sex marriage fight is that it's not about what's right (get rid of government envolvement where is does not belong) but about twisting the all fallen system to be (or just to look) a bit more equal to those who are considered more equal.

121   OW   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 4:23am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

No religion involved in this comment. I was taught evolution in school especially as a science major. Polygamy actually helps to propagate our species and gives us more chances of positive mutations. Homosexual acts from species hinders or eliminates it's propagation and is eventually selected out. Always find it interesting why this is considered a "religious" topic.

122   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 6:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

OW says

I was taught evolution in school especially as a science major. Polygamy actually helps to propagate our species and gives us more chances of positive mutations.

They forgot to tell you that human biological evolution ended with the elimination of neanderthals. (Somewhat 50000 years ago) Since than humans had only social evolution. Interestingly enough, the resulting human genom allows for about 2% of strictly homosexual males, and up to 10% of essentially bi-sectual, who may become or not homosexual based on various social conditions.

Maybe whoever created human race (be this evolution or whatever) has consired certain percent of homosexuals beneficial for our social evolution. Indeed the percentage of homosexual "intelectuals" is very high throughout human history from greek philosophers through great european artists and composers to modern American universities professors.

BTW, all this has nothing to do with the same sex marriages. I don't think having a registered marriage with that guy would stop Van Gogh from cutting off his ear after breaking out. :) or (:

123   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 13, 6:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

OW says

Homosexual acts from species hinders or eliminates it's propagation and is eventually selected out.

Only pure homosexuality prevents reproduction. Bisexuality, which includes frequent homosexual acts, does not as evident throughout nature.

Furthermore, chastity and abstinence prevents reproduction. Yet, no one has ever proposed outlawing abstinence.

In any case, even pure homosexuality does have a selective advantage in terms of kin benefits. Gay uncles can funnel their resources to nieces and nephews.

But even if nature selected against homosexuality, which clearly it doesn't given the prevalence of homosexual relations in nature, why should government outlaw it? Nature selects against "nice guys". Does that mean government should mandate that all men be assholes?

124   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2012 Aug 13, 6:28am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

OW says

Homosexual acts from species hinders or eliminates it's propagation and is eventually selected out.

Well you have a point. Homo erectus, the gayest of all species, is extinct.

125   bdrasin   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 6:33am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

OW says

No religion involved in this comment. I was taught evolution in school especially as a science major. Polygamy actually helps to propagate our species and gives us more chances of positive mutations. Homosexual acts from species hinders or eliminates it's propagation and is eventually selected out. Always find it interesting why this is considered a "religious" topic.

I really have to question your knowledge and experience here. Lots of gay people have children; among my friends and family I know more gay people with children than without. How many homosexuals do you even know?

126   CL   ignore (0)   2012 Aug 13, 9:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Dan8267 says

However, why should polygamy be illegal? I'm not in favor of it, but then again, I'm not in favor of traditional marriage.

I don't care either. My point is just that we can and do draw lines all the time. Even the NRA doesn't condone individuals owning Nukes (I think---could be!).

"Free speech" has limits. We can draw the line at gay marriage and still be fair to all citizens who want to join in the bilateral contract.

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