patrick.net

david1 says

The current estate tax system only exists to perpertuate the aristocracy.

I don't have a great problem of hereditary wealth per se.

The key is what this wealth is invested in, and how fair the income flow is.

So little of the income flows to wealth today is really risk capital. Why take risks when you can just cash rent checks from the working class . . .

Wasn't the 99'ers the term a year or so ago for those on their 99th week of unemployment?

Thanks for the feed back. I don't believe our economy is a zero sum game - if I did I may be more upset about the billionaires. When someone creates a company that never existed before and does well, it takes nothing away from me. I applaud those people. Steve Jobs' success took nothing away from me etc...; I'm in favor of very heavy taxes on trust funds and inheritances b/c of the inherent unfairness it perpetuates throughout society. I would argue that the housing bubble was as affected by the people with trust funds being able to outbid ordinary workers who only had earned income as it was by realtor hype. In fact, I saw it for myself in Moraga through out the bubble. When a couple in their early 20s buys a million dollar starter home on a school teacher's salary you know there are trust funds creating an unfair advantage and skewing the market for people who only have their own earned income to compete with. Since trustifarians cut across all income groups it may not be politically feasible to target those monies, nevertheless I find it disingenuous for these same people to be protesting the 1% - some of whom started from nothing and built their own wealth - while living off of inherited money themselves. I know a few people who have joined the protests and the have all been the beneficiaries family largess which has wholly or partly funded their lifestyles.

russell says

I find it disingenuous for these same people to be protesting the 1% - some of whom started from nothing and built their own wealth - while living off of inherited money themselves. I know a few people who have joined the protests and the have all been the beneficiaries family largess which has wholly or partly funded their lifestyles.

Why? As others have said--you play by the rules that are in place. Even if you want to change them. And are actively trying to change them.

Sure they will hotpantz

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/14/source-white-house-will-not-turn-over-all-solyndra-documents/

And now beakon power 43 million.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-31/beacon-power-backed-by-u-s-loan-guarantees-files-bankruptcy.html

They'll do fine...

russell says

I don't care if someone makes a trillion dollars per year. I think the thing that makes our society fundamentally unfair is inherited wealth.

Information is wealth. Genetic code is information. Therefore, genetic code is wealth. Should we tax children descendant from beautiful people since their genetic code is more highly valued? Winning the genetic lottery is just as important in life as being born into a wealthy family. And since wealth attracts mates, they often go hand in hand. The sad fact is that there is absolutely no way to make sure that every baby enters the world on equal footing with his peers.

In any case, I would have no problem with tax free inheritance if the people with large estates had actually produced the wealth they have instead of merely taking it from others. Sadly, this is rarely the case. As such, the estate tax is an imperfect mechanism to return to society some of the wealth taken from it by greedy parasites who should have never had the wealth. It is a poor mechanism, but one of the few that we have in the current system.

russell says

I would argue that the housing bubble was as affected by the people with trust funds being able to outbid ordinary workers who only had earned income as it was by realtor hype.

well, not just trust funds, because not that many people actually have trust funds, but certainly the Bank of Mom & Dad helped many buyers into the marker 1998-2003 during the boom.

But the bubble was a mass event with mass fraud going on at all levels. Fraudsters like Casey Serin demonstrated you didn't need a trust fund to buy $2M+ of real property, all you needed was the ability to sign your name several hundred times.

Not Sure says

They're ALSO complaining about massive financial FRAUD, corporate-government CRONYISM, the open transfer of wealth over from SAVERS to SPECULATORS, the corrupting influence of LOBBYISTS, the general lack of ACCOUNTABILITY, the judicial INEPTITUDE, the increasing erosion of CIVIL RIGHTS, and the LIES, LIES, LIES.

They are protesting the wrong zipcode.

Dan8267 says

Information is wealth. Genetic code is information. Therefore, genetic code is wealth.

LOL. Not all information is wealth. Wealth is that which increases utility -- ie satisfies human wants and needs. But genetic advantage is a form of wealth, human capital just as much as skills gained from taking dance lessons etc.

Anyhoo.

As such, the estate tax is an imperfect mechanism to return to society some of the wealth taken from it by greedy parasites who should have never had the wealth.

yeah, I always say why don't we just tax the parasitical income directly? That way we won't penalize Steve Jobs' kids just for the business acumen of their father.

I know why we don't tax the parasitical income directly tho . . . . Parasites own the media, write the laws, & run this place.

My point is about what the government can do to help create a more fair society - there is no reason to get into pointless arguments about the genetic code. I don't have anything against a member of the 1% who got there honestly through their own endeavors (obviously I do not include fraudsters); The government needs to prosecute people who commit fraud and I agree with the OWS protesters about that. I also agree about reversing Citizens United and restoring regulations etc...; But the subtext of the movement is a redistribution of wealth - which the government can do through taxes. I would rather that the government levy a heavy tax on all inherited wealth - trust funds etc..- than indiscriminately increase the tax burden on anyone who became wealthy through their own honest and legitimate endeavors - regardless of their income percentile. A hipster OWS protester from Brooklyn who lives off of a $40k per year trust fund and has produced nothing of value herself should pay taxes at a higher rate than a member of the 1% who has become wealthy through their own honest and legitimate endeavors. I do believe the offspring of the 1 percenters should be heavily taxed on their inheritance - including of course Steve Jobs' kids - and I believe that doing so will produce a more fair society and possibly a more productive one as the offspring of the wealthy go on to their own productive endeavors.

No that's where they should start.
Knocking on the door of the rich and holding them accountable for being rich, does nothing.
What we need is genuinely pissed off people in Washington demanding their Senators and Congressmen answer serious questions, in a non partisan way, if they REALLY want to know the TRUTH.

The truth is 99% of the 99%'ers secretly believe we're in this mess because Republicans are Evil and dole out billions to their bankster buddies out the back door. All the while ignoring that there hasn't been a Democrat deficit in Washington.
Democrats are parents of rotten juvenile punk that is reputed to commit a litany against the community. Just denial and refuse her kid is capable of such egregious actions.

"Not my Senator!"

The GOP says

"Not my Senator!"

I have read some of your threads and you still seem very focused on the Dem vs Rep meme. Your beef, while an ongoing gig on fox or cnn has nothing to do with OWS. Your suggestion of "people in Washington demanding their Senators and Congressmen answer serious questions" is a sensible one, it has been tried repeatedly with zero effect. The Dems and Reps are no different.

Just saw this after replying to GOP above. Seems this poll supports my talking points. The Dems and Repubs are NOT LISTENING.

The poll numbers are out. If Occupy Wall Street were a national candidate for president, it would be blowing away every other candidate on the stage, including Barack Obama and Mitt Romney.
Fifty-four percent of Americans agree with the protesters, versus 44 percent who think President Obama is doing a good job.

Seventy-three percent of Americans want prosecutions for Wall Street executives for the crisis.

Seventy-nine percent think the gap between rich and poor is too large.

Eighty-six percent say Wall Street and its lobbyists have too much power in Washington.

Sixty-eight percent think the rich should pay more in taxes.

Twenty-five percent of the public considers itself upset, 45 percent is concerned about the country and 25 percent is downright angry.

I don't take money.
I exchange my life for money, that I then exchange for goods and services and home and health. So, I exchange my life for goods and services and home and health.
Folks of welfare exchange nothing for a part of my life that they get to use to access goods and services and home and health. Rich people do not get my life for free, they pay for it. Poor people get a piece of my life for free. The forced wealth transfer system of the leftist liberals is unAmerican.

So here is a cross post link found elsewhere on this blog. If after watching this, if you are not totally pissed off, than nothing will get you pissed. Again, this is what OWS is damned mad at. Every tax payer should be the same. This has nothing to do with right vs. left as GOP keeps insisting. This has everything to do with pure fraud, while the Republicans and Democrats alike turned a blind eye. http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=HXNBlb0vsdM

Buster says

Sixty-eight percent think the rich should pay more in taxes.

They finally woke up. Most don't even know yet I think how bad it really is:

Not Sure says

Your beloved Wall St buddies RIGGED the market by creating WORTHLESS derivative financial instruments which they then knowingly sold to pension funds and investors worldwide. Then they created OTHER financial instruments to BET against them. All the while, they paid themselves OUTRAGEOUS bonuses even as their companies TANKED.

Well let me ask you a question, do you expect them to march down to the drunk tank and ask to be apprehended?

NO!

It's the Senators and Congressmen in Washington that have put a short leash on our attorney Generals, and the DOJ and are a hindrance to them, to do their jobs effectively.

Next election gonna be a sideshow. (a futile one, D and R are same 2 headed monster from jeckl island)

Not Sure says

Wrong. I'm saying I have the right to insult others based on their ACTIONS and in THE CASE OF YOUR COUNTRY those actions are WAR CRIMES, MASSIVE FINANCIAL FRAUD, TORTURE, KIDNAPPING, MURDER, MAYHEM, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, STATE-SPONSORED ASSASSINATIONS, RAPE, PROVIDING ADVANCED WEAPONRY TO DRUGLORDS, UNDERMINING DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS and DOUBLE-PARKING.

Oh well why didn't you say so? Fuck K-Mart! The purveyor of wars and destruction.

Bellingham Bill says

yeah, I always say why don't we just tax the parasitical income directly? That way we won't penalize Steve Jobs' kids just for the business acumen of their father.

Taxing the parasitic income directly as opposed to an inheritance tax would be better, provide Congress had the will and ability to distinguish between income from production versus income from zero-sum games. Of course, preventing the parasitic income would be far preferable to taxing it.

zzyzzx says

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

The 5% of the world population that are Americans have like 30% of the mass of all humans. Occupy an American's fat ass.

zzyzzx says

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

OK, I find it hard to believe that was a serious OWS protester. A prankster, a conservative mocking OWS protesters, or a photochopped image would be a more likely scenario. I doubt any college offers a B.A. in "Hispanic Transgender Gay and Lesbian Studies".

But if it is for real, which is highly unlikely, then yes, it is utterly ridiculous.

So I was reading about the Iran Revolution of late 1970's recently.

There is a parallel that strike me.

One was the Shah's CUTTING BUDGETS which threw young people out of work, leaving them with nothing but time on their hands to stir up trouble.

Another thing that strikes me was the fast growth of it over a few years, and how rapidly it morphed into something else.

Another thing I hadn't realized was how historically damn few revolutions involved active effort by much more than 1% of the population. Only Iran and a few others grew to much more than that.

Oakland is now using tear gas, tactically a good move, but strategically a bad one.

" there really ARE a bunch of people out there with some newly-acquired and HOPELESSLY RIDICULOUS degrees under their belts."

i nearly lost my first gf in college over that. Me with my aspie CS degree was pontificating about "real majors" to her roommate, who was studying ethnomusicology. The gf was studying Philosophy, but at least she's parlayed that into an assistant professorship somewhere, plus Philosophy can at least train one how to think better.

This was in the 1980s, LOL. At the time I didn't understand why anyone in college wasn't studying the hard sciences. But when you get down to it this economy doesn't need everyone to be a research scientist or engineer.

Vicente says

Another thing I hadn't realized was how historically damn few revolutions involved active effort by much more than 1% of the population. Only Iran and a few others grew to much more than that.

Largely thanks to the St Louis Fed, I think I understand the present situation better than the average bear.

It's pretty easy to tease out the dynamics that have gotten us to where we are now, so I understand to some extent the structural forces that are shaping what this decade is going to turn out to be.

I wish FRED had more detailed data in certain areas, but what it has is clear enough.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=39r

shows how household debt grew in the 2000s -- the red line is debt / income ratio, which rose ~60% from 1.4 to 2.2+.

Breaking it down by YOY credit drawdown per capita:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=39s

shows the housing bubble was feeding $4000+/yr per adult into the general economy.

Few people seem to understand the feedback nature of this stimulus, how it created the prosperity we had by creating fake income streams and fake wealth effects.

That's all gone now and it ain't coming back. What is coming is the baby boom's retirement, and they're aged 50 to 65 right now.

My thesis is things are just going to continue viciously circling the bowl. There's not going to be a recovery. The Republicans aren't going to do anything but continue to rename post offices until they crawl into full power again (then all bets are off).

Systemic stresses are going to continue to build. Plutocrats like the Kochs, Peter P Petersen, and all the rest of the conservative forces of evil are going to be fighting a rearguard action for the rest of my life.

They may win, or they may crumble like the Shah. If things get as bad as I think they will, I don't know where this is going.

Not Sure says

Lol. I thought the exact same thing, and although I DON'T appreciate the dishonesty of the picture (which in my opinion is photoshop)

Photoshop was my first guess, too, not just because of the ridiculous content, but also because of the "writing". If you look at the writing, you'll notice that every letter "i" is written the exact same way and every letter "a" is also written precisely the same way. That spells a font, not human writing.

Somebody is Photoshoping protestors on this board?
Say it isn't so!

Bellingham Bill says

i nearly lost my first gf in college over that. Me with my aspie CS degree was pontificating about "real majors" to her roommate, who was studying ethnomusicology

You lie! Everyone knows that CS majors don't have girlfriends. :)

The GOP says

Somebody is Photoshoping protestors on this board?

Say it isn't so!

William E Baughb

More likely, someone is linking to photochopped images.

Reverse image search makes things like this easy to detect.

Notice all the same i's? Sounds like a web app that adds text to a standard image.

Not Sure says

They're ALSO complaining about massive financial FRAUD, corporate-government CRONYISM, the open transfer of wealth over from SAVERS to SPECULATORS, the corrupting influence of LOBBYISTS, the general lack of ACCOUNTABILITY, the judicial INEPTITUDE, the increasing erosion of CIVIL RIGHTS, and the LIES, LIES, LIES.

Exactly, they are protesting many of the same things as Teabaggers. Stupid that Teabaggers feel the need to insult them.

The GOP says

hey are protesting the wrong zipcode.

Not really, they are in many zip codes from what I gather. Plus some countries, which aren't on our zip code system.

corntrollio says

they are protesting many of the same things as Teabaggers. Stupid that Teabaggers feel the need to insult them.

Teabaggers started as "Fed Up USA" movement on Karl Denninger's site in 2008. They even had demonstrations back then, as things were going down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlDIqFuH0d4

I personally think KD is largely talking his book (he's a good enough trader and has the capital to clear tens of millions should a solid downtrend appear again) but other than that he's a consistent libertarian-style conservative who doesn't have any truck with the God-botherers he has to coalition with in defense of his wealth and property.

There's a strong overlap between the Alex Jones-style nuttery, the Lew Rockwell nuttery, the Ron Paul nuttery, and Lyndon Larouche nuttery. 3/4 of these are probably CIA agitprop to begin with, LOL.

corntrollio says

Exactly, they are protesting many of the same things as Teabaggers. Stupid that Teabaggers feel the need to insult them.

TeaBaggers: We're all poor. We need deregulation so that rich bankers and CEOs can make jobs by shipping them overseas. It's all the Mexicans' fault! Book learning and sex with people outside your family are the enemy!

OWS: We're all poor. We need anarchy to change the economy so we all have wealth. We'll do this by smoking pot and beating drums while avoiding bathing. Soap and the rich are the enemy!

Yep, pretty much a reflection of the Republican and Democratic parties.