patrick.net

Why?, because people are expendable. Food became cheap from automation, or modern agricultural methods, compliments of the steam age. Rents and mortgages are expensive because of banks and building costs. Health insurance became expensive because it's a monopoly. The governments role is to slowly inflate. The 1% pull a few strings as well, they more or less own the government.

Academics do work on this, those that do are humanitarians, but they are somewhat anti-corporate, believing people could again one day be more dependent on themselves, so they don't get paid much attention, although they completely understand the human condition of not having enough.

Still, since most people are religious they believe god provides, and so look the other way, usually to the sky gods for answers, when in reality, the answer lies in you.

It seems like relatively speaking, the food in the united states is cheaper than almost anywhere else (taking price of food vs wages into account). However, it does not seem to be the case with rents and mortgages which take a huge bite out of people's take home pay, like astronomical amounts especially in desirable areas.

everything says

Still, since most people are religious they believe god provides, and so look the other way, usually to the sky gods for answers, when in reality, the answer lies in you.

But if "you" are dying, an assertion like "the answer lies in you" is cold comfort.

Deep down we all know that any kind of "salvation" has to come from outside of ourselves.

But I guess that's a topic for the Religion section.

I invest in commodity futures like grains, corns, oil and, income properties and stocks. If the price of oil, cost of monthly rent and price for goods and services go down, my profit take from these invest becomes less. As an investor, I insist on keeping the cost higher for more profit. Reducing the cost of living forces me to take less profit. Are you joking me? Yeah, I need to eat caviar, lobster and foie gras some times.

More profit I get enables me to invest on influencing politician to keep the cost of living higher. So I can hoard more money. That's nothing new, of course.

Did I do a good job explaining why we will never reduce the cost of living?

Cause chicks dig money. Krugman would have no girlfriends if he were paid for actual work/goods delivered.

Delurking says

And in the inflationary environment of 1970-2012, buying has generally made sense 10 years after the purchase, as rents have risen:

Do not have debt. Debt is a millstone. Everyone says that inflation "makes debt easier." No, it doesn't for you. It does for the lender, but not for you. The reason is that your cost of living will rise faster than your wages and income will, and that will make paying the debt harder, not easier. Don't fall for that line of crap, it is a lie and you will lose. Under no circumstances should you borrow against any existing asset you hold; if you wish to use one or more assets as part of your capital base (see below) liquidate it right up front.

Taken from: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=209605

mell says

Everyone says that inflation "makes debt easier." No, it doesn't for you. It does for the lender, but not for you.

Maybe one day this will become a sensible outlook, as it was after the great depression. But your reasoning makes little sense.

I agree with you partially. The people who take on debt to live beyond their means, are not being prudent and may regret it one day. Although even here - I don't judge others for their choices. If someone wants to drive luxury cars and do other conspicuous consumption and then be dirt poor in retirement, that's their choice.

As for debt to buy real estate ? That's where I would have to disagree. As delurking (Troy) just said, in recent history buying has usually worked out VERY well for people holding for long periods of time. This can not be disputed. If money is borrowed to invest in assets that appreciate with inflation and it's for utility purposes or as investment, it makes sense.

And as in the past, they might be like someone now, 25 years into a mortgage with a payment of $800 (on their debt), for a place that currently would rent for $2700.

I agree it depends on your personal situation, AKA if you can handle the debt with stable income etc. All cash and no debt is always best and the least risk. But I disagree with those statistics (never trust one that you haven't made up yourself), what about all the people that falter under the debt, not just because they were not prudent, but also because of unforeseen events (it's part of being prudent to plan for those but you cannot control everything), I doubt that these statistics take those poor souls into account. That being said, I am not saying that owning homes or making a business out of it cannot be profitable - it's just very risky - unless you know you can count on a bailout.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/obama-favored-stronger-layoff-warnings-07/

But now he's "changed his mind"...just like he did on gay marriage.

raindoctor says

Why don't academics, thinktanks, politicians, economists, focus on CUTTING down the cost of living? Why waste time on generating highly paid jobs, only to have these wages taken away by rentiers?

Why don't YOU focus on CUTTING DOWN your cost of living, and see how that pans out.

You want a desirable piece of RE, you're going to have to pay for that, in this system, who benefits from that?

You want a shiny car?
You want a cell phone?
You want air conditioning in your house?
You want a television?
Cable/Satellite?
You want to go on vacation?

YOu want a lower cost of living, move to one of the dakotas and build a mud hut, collect rain water to drink and shower in, and B.M. out in your outhouse. Living is virtually cost free,,,,,

errc says

Why don't YOU focus on CUTTING DOWN your cost of living, and see how that pans out.

You want a desirable piece of RE, you're going to have to pay for that, in this system, who benefits from that?

You want a shiny car?
You want a cell phone?
You want air conditioning in your house?
You want a television?
Cable/Satellite?
You want to go on vacation?

YOu want a lower cost of living, move to one of the dakotas and build a mud hut, collect rain water to drink and shower in, and B.M. out in your outhouse. Living is virtually cost free,,,,,

1. Forget about me, because I am not the one who is demanding for high wage jobs so that I can pay for all those things you listed. Almost all policy makers, thinktanks, and politicians want to create jobs in whatever fashion.

2. Sure, I haven't heard from any policy maker that "we all should move to Dakotas, etc".

3. You could be right: the way things are going, subsistence living would fix the whole mess the developed nations are in.

4. Desirable piece of RE? Why is it desirable? It is due to two reasons: less commute and good school districts

Less commute: maybe, telecommuting can fix this.
Good school districts: Steve Jobs suggested to dismantle teachers unions and pave the way for entrepreneurial types to start private schools, thereby severing the link between RE location and good school district. Or if things go in different direction, where education doesn't bring stable careers, "good school district" doesn't help.

raindoctor says

Manufacturing jobs are not coming bac

Yes, MFG jobs can come back to US shores.. its a question if US Govt will allow it.

raindoctor says

Why don't academics, thinktanks, politicians, economists, focus on CUTTING down the cost of living? Why waste time on generating highly paid jobs, only to have these wages taken away by rentiers?

What do you say?

Skip the above and just go straight to the business leaders! None of the above know "How to do" run a business anyway. Its the business leaders who can provide guidance to get jobs back and reduce costs in order to get higher employment.

marcus says

How are we supposed to be a thriving growing and improving country without a strong middle class, and without the ability to build businesses and infrastructure with laborers who can have a decent living in exchange for their hard work ?

Sadly, this is a myth. The American middle class is no longer needed, as the 1% that squeeze everything penny of rent possible out of our society can now sell to a global middle class. Still, we have some wealth left and the parasites won't leave until we're destitute and living eight to a two bedroom, while paying them rent on that two bedroom.

You have just asked the question that will eventually provide the solution to our economic problems. Wages don't necessarily matter, what matters is wages relative to the cost of housing, healthcare, and education. Many countries have a smaller per capita income than the U.S., but have a higher quality of life because they can afford the things that affect their life the most. (Housing, healthcare, education.)

The solution to our economic problems is to deflate our wages (or increase productivity) to a level that is competitive with the rest of the world WHILE lowering our cost of living at a greater rate. Housing, healthcare, and education can ALL be affordable once again if we focus on increasing the supply of each, rather than increasing the demand.

Good luck to us all.

It depends what the cost of living means ultimately.
With taxation you generally have two systems. A regressive tax which is like a sales tax or a progressive that increases with income. But the issue with that is it tends to reward speculation *cough facebook cough* rather than invention.

When the government subsidizes any good or service prices (supply) prices go down. When it subsidizes demand prices go up.

Look how screwed up cash for clunkers was. From an environmental perspective only 0.4mpg was gained. But it sold more cars....but it was to people that didn't really need them....and it also destroyed fine working used cars which drove up prices for everyone else.

Price supports are nothing new. The school lunch program was made up in the 1930's to support the drop in crop prices. A clear argument can be made that students do not perform well when hungry. But this also creates a system of dependency decades later and this food wasn't exactly the best in the world.

Also from another website I can quote this. Debts are fixed but assets are variable. This goes also into the social as well. The pleasure gains of various vices are often paid by those that did not always use them. How much does alcoholism cost medicare or smoking or obesity?

A universal cannot be created without understand that not everyone is the same. In Massachusetts we have a mandate to shelter everyone. But the trouble with that is that there are non profits (not funded by the state) that do this for their job. Well the trouble is there are some groups of people that for security are not allowed to stay in shelters and few would give money to any group that does (arsonists and level 3 sex offenders). Equity can be expensive.

epinpb is right. If we increase the supply (at least in education and healthcare) then we drive prices down. But there are plenty of groups that can get scared if you tell them their incomes will go down a tad or that they want to compete. There are countless industries with little competition. Look at products for elderly care. Try shopping for a specially designed walker for grandpa/grandma and the price is sky high even though the material cost is low. There's simply little competition.

Because that would go against the Keynesian ponzi scheme theories of spending oneself into prosperity.

obligatory

G'Day, It is my firm hope that there is a 'Third-Way' out of all this. Goverment HAS to be for the people. Polices can be constructed that make things fair. Land for instance, cannot be considered a mere commodity, unless you live in Holland (they make it there) A government should be 'fair' about it. Realizing that in a city there will be Banksters and Janitors & Plumbers. They might not live in the same neighborhood, but they need each other (10mi

G'Day, Just go to:
http://www.karratharealestate.com.au/index.cfm?pagecall=property&propertyID=1528865

This is one of the most isolated, inhospitable places on Earth with land everywhere. Might as well live in NYC.

Regards, Omerde

thomaswong.1986 says

raindoctor says

Manufacturing jobs are not coming bac

Yes, MFG jobs can come back to US shores.. its a question if US Govt will allow it.

My understanding is it's already coming back, but only in Right To Work states. The new VW plant in Chattanooga is running wide open. BMW sells all the SUVs it can produce here. The Daimler Benz plant in Alabama is also running at capacity.

Even Ford is doing well again. They say the Fusion is one hell of a car.

General Motors, however, is still having many of the same problems it has had over the past 10-15 years. The stupid politics, brutal corporate culture, etc...it won't last, will end up like British Leyland.

epinpb says

WHILE lowering our cost of living at a greater rate. Housing, healthcare, and education can ALL be affordable once again if we focus on increasing the supply of each, rather than increasing the demand.

So you want producers to supply the market at levels where marginal cost > marginal revenue? Talk about de-incentivizing hard work and risk taking...

Seriously, price controls were implemented by Nixon in the 1970s and they absolutely destroyed the economy.

Again, if you raise the expectations of the future value of the dollar, then you encourage hoarding of the dollar. Being that it is the medium of exchange for goods and services, this hoarding chokes consumption and investment.

The fractional reserve argument is bogus, raindoctor. Investment is not lending. This liquidity trap is exactly waht is happening RIGHT NOW in our current fractional reserve banking system. The M2 & M3 multipliers have fallen greater than M0 has increased through quantitative easing. Hence QE hasn't spurred economic growth. Monetarists all over the world are scratching their heads while Keynesians know exectly what the problem is...

Delurking says

Rents are set by how much we have to outbid the next guy to win tenancy to the place.

No. I can decrease the rent, if I wanted to. Why do I want to do that? Tell me why I shouldn't hoard all the money... Then I will lower the rent. While I am at it, I will renounce my citizenship and become a citizen of Monaco. So I can dodge more tax to hoard mo money. It is a true democracy, isn't it? Those damn commies!

epinpb - your post has a lot of merit. What if prices and wages returned to the same level they were in the 70's or 80's, (without price controls or wage controls).

If home prices were in the $20,000 to $60,000 range for the average person, a good three year old car could be had for $1,800 and the cost of living was comparatively low - life would be better for millions of Americans.

BUT the establishment and slimy politicians doesn't want that to happen. In fact they've thrown trillions of dollars around to make sure home prices don't come down.

Lets pray for a flushing out of the establishment come this November.

david1 says

A strong dollar policy discourages investment and consumption. Without investment and consumption, the economy screeches to a halt.

That's pretty much it, with only one correction. It's not the economy, but our financial system. The problem is that practically all money in use has been created as debt with interest. It means you need new money to get into financial system to pay the old interest. Note: just creating (printing) this new money is not enough, someone has to actually borrow it to move it into the economy. Again, because of interest in this financial system there is much more debt than the total money supply. The system needs constant creation of new debt to service the old debt. Very roughly you need to increase the total amount of money in use at the rate of average interest on existing debt.

So, by reducing the cost of living you would cause a collapse of our monetary system. Of course, in theory governments may monetize the debt free of interest. The problem with this is that new debt is all net profit of the banking system. Our banking system would do anything to prevent this (literally anything). Some say some American presidents tried this, notably Lincoln and Kennedy (with well known consequences).

As Elizabeth Warren showed the main costs of living, what most family spend most of their paychecks on, are housing and health insurance. You have to have cheaper houses and health care costs to reduce the cost of living. These are non-discretionary items.

"The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots."

The key is to see where the future is headed and pick a career path that is still needed.

Wow, a Simpsons reference going back to 1997. Tip of my hat.

Ruki says

Shrek, you have a problem with Mr. Rogers now?

epinpb says

The solution to our economic problems is to deflate our wages (or increase productivity) to a level that is competitive with the rest of the world WHILE lowering our cost of living at a greater rate. Housing, healthcare, and education can ALL be affordable once again if we focus on increasing the supply of each, rather than increasing the demand.

The reason that most of the 'citizens' can buy the shiny, noisy crap that they are complaining about prices of is because they DON'T pay money for food. The reason they don't pay money for food is because the farmers did exactly what you suggest above. How many farmers are left?
No. Just fucking no. Deflating prices and lower costs of living simply encourage people to waste their labors (and the little money they get for them) on shit they don't need. The debt issue is this: a debt is a promise to burn up resources in the future to pay back a loan (plus interest) for the privilege of wasting money Right Now.
People don't need jobs.
They need food, clothing, shelter, clean air and clean water.
An "economy" is a symptom, a side effect of the activities that people take part in. It is not anything we should be using to guage behaviors or direct behaviors. It is merely the measure of an arbitrary factor (money that is devalued/inflated by bankers and politicians).

Anyone who doesn't believe governments conspire to inflate away their debts, please read about the South Sea Bubble.

The value of a house is not in "schools" or "commute time" except as a down-line evaluation. The actual value of a house lies in whether it puts someone where they NEED to be. The prices of homes in the current market are based on where people WANT to be, which is related to the way houses are marketed, not to any rational thought about the usefulness of their lives to their own future (or their offspring...see "evolution").
Whether you have money, want money, or use a lot of money...when TSHTF on this System of systems (resource extraction), you will not survive unless you find a place to live where the people are accustomed to living without money.
Economists make their livings telling everyone how to build the straightest road to hell. That's called "efficiency".
Efficiency is a vacuum cleaner that sucks the life out of the soil, the people, and their futures and the bag gets emptied into an offshore account or spent on landfills full of plastic and petro products.
Knowing this, you can invest accordingly, to whether you believe in capitalism (the worship of money will continue forever) or evolution (the majority dies off and the fringe repopulates a new niche in a changing environment).
You don't have to be a sheep to be adapted to the current niche. The majority follows a leader, who may be a visionary of the market trends. But the market is built on certain stabilities and resources which depend on having the sheep around them and being able to feed the sheep.

We've based our economic model on reducing the cost of living while coming up with things people don't need to fill their buying desires. Fully 95% of the economy is crap. Total crap. 2% of the people feed the other 98%, and probably a similar number provide the shelter and clothing needed. The rest of the "economy" is just the process of extracting oil and other resources and dumping them into the air or landfills and selling people the idea that they have a purpose in life: to get a job to make money to buy a car to drive to a job.
We don't need health insurance. We need good health.
We don't need "to exercise": we need to do useful work.
We don't need "houses": we need to be where we are useful to our own futures....location, location, location.
Making money is not a "useful" habit.
"Manufacturing" does not need to "come back" to the U.S. if the crap we are going to make to "create jobs" is just going to get thrown in a landfill.
The "cost of living" is actually quite low already. The "cost of being a consumer" on the other hand, is always more than we can afford. It's the same system of marketing that got farmers to buy more and more and more equipment with more and more and more debt: the Next Big Thing will always Improve Your Life, but it only improves the life until it isn't the Next Big Thing anymore, and you have to sell your soul to the neighbor, who has just a little more money and so is "more efficient" and now you work for him until he buys the Next Big Thing that eliminates your job.
The trick is getting people to Believe Hard in The Next Big Thing, rather than teaching them to be satisfied and happy with the little things they can control and improve themselves.

Auntiegrav says

The "cost of being a consumer" on the other hand, is always more than we can afford.

Auntie, you sure got that right.

bgamall4 says

Cost of living is based on many factors, a main one being speculation. Speculation is an investment bank tax on the rest of us. That is why it is ok for them to tax us with high cost of living while diminishing our wages in a global economy.

I disagree with this entirely.

You may be thinking of so called "moral hazard," where banks take risks and if they lose they are bailed out by the taxpayer. This is a problem, and a big factor in why our economy is broken now. But it is the result of deregulation, and allowing banks to be investment banks. Speculation existed long before this and is not an intrinsic cause of inflation or recession.

Deregulation was a general causal factor in the housing bubble. Low down payments and unregulated exotic derviatives ( CDS and CDO ), a securitized mortgage market of bogus securities (given fraudulaent ratings) whcih created a demand for mortgages regardless of risk (ie the risky mortgages were were hidden in convoluted "securities"). This market caused a monstrous demand for mortgages, which generate fees, and there were a lot of idiots and dirt bags willing to write morgages that they knew could easily default if RE didn't continue it's bubbleiscious double digit/year rise.

This is all separate from generalizations about speculation. In healthier times, when banks were separate from investment houses and appropriate regulations existed speculation was not a problem and was not the cause of major inflation that occurred during these times. Although connected people with a lot of money certainly speculated profitably during these times.

It might be easy though to confuse cause and effect. Because changes in currency values and commodity values are of course going to be accompanied by speculation, as long as we are in a free market capitalist economy. But that doesn't make speculation evil.

The causes of changes in standard of living are complex. I know that even if I had a degree in economics, I would still have a hard time wrapping my mind around all the variables. But here are a couple a simple causes.

We advocate global capitalism, and gobal markets which makes sense. There is a natural evolution going on. But low wages in other countries,
puts an obvious damper on wage growth and job growth domestically.
There are forces at work which are causing their standard of living to increase, while ours decreases. Movement in the direction of equilibrium is no big surprise.

The purchasing power of our incomes wasn't helped any by women going to work en masse (a good thing), because then people could afford to pay more for rent and living in general. Everything is a market right ? Supply and demand. If people can afford to pay more, even if because of an additional income, this gradually affects prices.

There has been huge inflation over the last century, but SOMETIMES wages were going up as much as prices so standard of living isn't always decreasing with inflation. OF course if by random luck you bought too much house in the 1968, overextending with a bigger mortgage than you should have, you would have been well rewarded with the ensuing inflation and wife going to work. Timing is everything.

In any case this kind of thing is absurd:

Honest Abe says

If home prices were in the $20,000 to $60,000 range for the average person, a good three year old car could be had for $1,800 and the cost of living was comparatively low - life would be better for millions of Americans.

Yes, and if we could all be 27 forever that would be really nifty too. So ?

Nobody has the power to instantly change the value of money. Believe me, if they could they would (well maybe not), the money of all those millionaires and billionaires would be worth more too. Money represents value - you can't just instantly increase the amount of value out there !

Besides, it would simultaneously increase the value of all debt too.

It's crazy talk. Totally absurd. OBviously if the value of money is going to change with our well entrenched system, it will be in the direction of becoming worth less.

But we are at an unusual juncture where it doesn't seem likely that wages can go up a commensurate amount if and when inflation does occur, and hence the scariness of these times for anyone who really thinks it through.

bgamall4 says

Cost of living is based on many factors, a main one being speculation. Speculation is an investment bank tax on the rest of us. That is why it is ok for them to tax us with high cost of living while diminishing our wages in a global economy.

the only wide spread speculation i and many have seen, documented by Robert shiller is Home Price speculation by the public at large.. claiming 10-50% appreciation annually over the long term.

banks had very little to do with it.. govt turned the blind eye and encouraged it.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/d__GPqOVNbE&playnext=1&list=PLE56D69691F1F2C13&feature=results_video

bgamall4 says

Also asset inflation is even more hurtful to main street than wage and asset inflation.

I guess we aren't entirely disagreeing. I agree the economy and markets are broken, but I believe that even most of the bankers strongly wish we could go back to more regulation and to when things weren't completely broken (eg our bond market where prices are propped up buy the US buying our own bonds, while
the real interest rate is basically negative)

bgamall4 says

Banks set it up. They set up the speculation. I cannot believe how difficult it is for you to grasp the truth. Lack of government regulation was fostered bythe banks as well.

Lack of Govt regulation even with required disclose didnt prevent the stock bubble in later half of 90s. We still saw the public at large speculating on internet stock as they did before in the 20s, yet the SEC act of 1933 and 34 were still on the books.

The housing bubble was equally created by the public at large with talk of "buy now" mania. Shiller provided all the proof needed, and yet today much of what he has proved is still ignored by the public when it comes to financial valuations.

bgamall4 says

If your assumptions are wrong, like all real estate cannot tank at the same time, the risk number is wrong too.

All RE in many metros did thank long before the repeal of Glass Steagall back in the late 80s and early 90s. Again, the RE mania corrected accordingly, without the need for regulations.

bgamall4 says

The S and L bubble was also a scam and Greenspan was behind that one as well.

Keep dreaming... Home Prices over the long run appreciate at about the rate of inflation. Prices became unfordable for many .. reaching 10x incomes. We had back then the same crazy public mania over RE (but not as bad as more recent.)...

There is no amount of regulation which will change the publics attitude over speculation on some crazy nonsense.

All bubbles are ultimately created by the public. Different bubbles may have different contexts and catalysts buy in the end it is all down to crowd behavior.