patrick.net

Again, I am all for individual unisex toilets. I am against the abolition of urinals because it saves men at least 7 seconds every time.

"that's like saying Hilter !@#$ werfasded the Concentration Camps and Guantanamo BAY!!!!!!! ARGHHHH!!!"

-example of liberal nonsense argument.

"Now hold on here, 4 out 5 professors said the KKK and Palestinian Date Rape and !#@$ed my !&&&%goofer uh huh? ARGHHHH!"

-another example of liberal nonsense argument

WTF?

Dan8267 says

Gay men use the men's room. Sure, it would be nice if we all got individual, self-cleaning bathrooms, but that's not economical with today's technology.

Disagree. This would not only be more hygienic, but would create jobs.

some visuals for this thread:

http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

JodyChunder says

Disagree. This would not only be more hygienic, but would create jobs.

Self-cleaning bathrooms don't create jobs. They eliminate them.

Dan8267 says

Self-cleaning bathrooms don't create jobs. They eliminate them.

Not if you are a bathroom engineer!

Dan8267 says

Self-cleaning bathrooms don't create jobs. They eliminate them.

Someone has to install them!

JodyChunder says

Someone has to install them!

Something has to install them. Robots!

Bap33 says

but do me the favor of following along so I can make my point

It's still your move.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

What potty should a queer use?
Gay men use the men's room.

a lezbo in a ladie's room is different than a male in a ladies room???

Dan8267 says

If heterosexual couples can reduce their net taxes via marriage, than equal protection demands the same for homosexual couples.

the republic is better served by supporting normal coupling. maybe that is the reason for the tax difference? The benefit should increase with time served.

Bap33 says

the republic is better served by supporting normal coupling. maybe that is the reason for the tax difference?

No. Tax law is not determined by what is best for society or the republic. Tax law is determined by what is best for those writing the tax law.

More to the point, you are going off on a tangent. Our discussion was about why gay marriage should be legalized or banned. I've presented my thesis, reiterated below, present yours.

Marriage should not exist as a secular institution since it is not the right or the responsibility of government to intervene or judge personal relationships. All laws regarding marriage should be repealed or replaced with marriage agnostic laws.

That said, if America does recognize marriage as a legal institution, then the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as well as the philosophy of equality under law demands equal recognition of gay marriage.

See, my thesis is quite simple, easy to understand, easy to defend, and specific. What's your anti-thesis?

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Chikfilet sandwiches are used in gay rituals. Guys shove them into their assholes and go to bars and pick up congressmen to eat them out of their assholes.

Um, that's actually how Chikfilet sandwiches are made.

And you know that how??......Oh, I see...

Dan8267 says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Chikfilet sandwiches are used in gay rituals. Guys shove them into their assholes and go to bars and pick up congressmen to eat them out of their assholes.

Um, that's actually how Chikfilet sandwiches are made.

Hey, those mayors are just expressing their opinions, you know, like the chick-fil-a CEO.

Oh no, wait, you're right, those two comments by random mayors expressing dislike for bigotry and discrimination is exactly the correct example of the complete liberal plot to take over and destroy the country.

Cross-posting from another thread because it's relevant to this one...

xrpb11a says

Marriage is not a civil right.

Actually, according to the Supreme Court it is. In the 1967 case Loving v. Virginia, the Supreme Court ruled that states could not ban or restrict interracial marriages, a common practice at the time that was called miscegenation, as it was a violation of the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

As I argue in this thread, the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies exactly the same way to the issue of gay marriages.

Ultimately the people twenty years from now are going to look back at this debate in the exact same way we look back at the 1960s debate over interracial marriages. And those who oppose gay marriage will look as bigoted and stupid as those who opposed interracial marriages. It's the natural progression of liberty and equality.

Punishment for marriage. -- If any white person intermarry with a colored person, or any colored person intermarry with a white person, he shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by confinement in the penitentiary for not less than one nor more than five years.

§259 of the Virginia Code

As repugnant as that text is, the prohibition of gay marriage is just as repugnant and for exactly the same reasons.

Dan8267 says

Loving v. Virginia

...an ironic name for the case. It seems that sometimes history has a sense of humor.

@Dan,
I say your assertion that "marriage" is a generic term for coupling, and does not soley mean male coupling with female, is wrong. The word has meaning. It means what it means. What you want is something-other-than-marriage, and needs a name. Sexual deviants pulled "gay" out of their behinds and made it "mean" something it never ment. Maybe the same needs to be done for the unnatural coupling that you suggest be recognized.

Your demands for special consideration for non-productive, unnatural coupling, could be very bad for the republic. If you were to take all of those whom you represent and create your own republic, how might you plan to reproduce?

The act of sex and marriage are not allowed with a person that is not of sound mind, or not of age. There are laws preventing these things. I submit that having sex with a person who is suffering from uncontrollable deviant desires, or from a birth defect that has rendered them a sexual deviant, is sexual abuse. Having sex with such a person is against the law. Just as having sex with a low functioning downs person that is of age is not legal. It is disgusting the way the mentally challenged and/or physically handicapped are being targeted by sexual deviants. Shameful. ANd you suggest the Gov sanction such abuse?? Why?

fwiw I think the SF, Chicago, and Boston attacks on CFA were retarded and un-American, helping the right wing message machine turn the CEO into a free speech martyr instead of the bigoted badguy (with a big checkbook) he really is.

People refusing to eat at CFA are just exercising their fundamental freedom to not support things that are working to harm them or those they care about.

Local government getting into the act is bad juju. Morons.

I'm gay and I am liberal. I firmly believe that anyone should have the right to say anything they wish, short of yelling fire in a dark, very crowded theater when there is no fire. I actually even welcome folks going on the record with their white trash bigoted comments.

One thought and concern regarding Chick Fil A day: As if a bunch of trailer trash need another special day or another excuse to go out and buy a bucket of chicken thighs and display their bigotry.

As for those who support them, that is your right as well as it is mine to withhold my patronage. This is easy for me to do as I actually love good and healthy food. So no, I probably would never walk into one of their stores to begin with.

On this note, I was sort of wondering how the christianist rights boycott of companies supporting gay rights is going? A Million Moms against JC Penny because of their support of gay rights was sort of funny. Are all of you anti gay bigots also boycotting Microsoft, Apple, Google, Mercedes, Starbucks and virtually all of the TOP 100 Companies to work for as well as the vast majority of fortune 500 companies? Yea, there is tyranny at work here as the tables have now turned and being a douche is now far less popular than it was even just a few years ago.

As far as equal civil rights go, there is simply not a single RATIONAL reason to withhold such rights from anyone under the laws of the USA. DOMA will go down as shameful US history. The faster the better. As for greasy chicken crap, I am sure it will be served for many more years. Social Security balances would benefit greatly if the bigots started to eat a bucket a day and I actually hope they do.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/best-companies/2012/full_list/

Honest Abe says

They are the INTOLERANT ones, AND by utilizing unjust POLITICAL TYRANNY, want to crush, censure and destroy it.

I rest my case.

The above is the very definition of being a perpetrator and at the same time claiming VICTIM status. Psych 101. In other words in 2nd grade language: you can dish it out but you can't take it. Grow up.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ASsJQY5jgmk&feature=player_embedded

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/chick-fil-as-vice-president-of-public-relations-dies-of-heart-attack/

Saving Chick fil a, straight marriage, and social security account balances one bucket of chicken at a time: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/chick-fil-as-vice-president-of-public-relations-dies-of-heart-attack/

"Chick-fil-A’s Vice President of Public Relations Don Perry died “suddenly” Friday morning, the company confirmed. Perry was based in the Atlanta area and worked in Chick-fil-A’s corporate communications department for 29 years.
Ross Cathy, who owns the Midland, Georgia Chick-fil-A and is related to the company’s CEO Dan Cathy, said Perry died of a heart attack, Columbus, Georgia’s News 3 reports. A company spokesman could not confirm Perry’s cause of death to ABC News."

Self cleaning lesbian toilets, great idea.

But since when did Chick-Fil-A become ordained priest capable or marrying people, or the place where you go for a wedding ceremony?
Oh that's right it's not and they don't, so what difference does it make what the CEO thinks. The place is closed on Sunday, anyone that has eaten there, can tell you they serve Jesus Sandwiches. What would you expect?

Now if you want sodomy, I think the King campaign from Burger King suggests that for a good time...

Its all about freedom. The "gay community" insists on receiving tolerance, but refuses to grant tolerance to others.

Double standard = FAIL

Honest Abe says

The "gay community" insists on receiving tolerance, but refuses to grant tolerance to others.

This is not about tolerance. Nobody needs to tolerate the intolerable.

It is about the right of same sex couples to legally partner in this country, a right that is under attack by the religious nutcakes as Cathy and the general Republican social conservative movement that got rolling under Reagan.

Whether corporations like CFA are legally able to limit their business relationships to those they morally comport with is an interesting question.

How many gay store managers and franchisees do they employ / do business with?

Unfortunately, being homosexual is not a protected right in this country yet, AFAIK, unlike in the more enlightened / less radical Christianist nations in Europe.

Double standard = FAIL

Room temperature IQ = FAIL

Delurking says

This is not about tolerance. Nobody needs to tolerate the intolerable.

True.
BUT, for 98% of humanity, deviant sexual behavior is intolerable.

How can a corporation be against gays?

I didn't know pieces of paper had the same rights as real people.

Maybe we should pierce the Corporate Veil.

Bap33 says

BUT, for 98% of humanity, deviant sexual behavior is intolerable.

90% of people are shocked and disgusted by the sex lives of 90% of people.

Bap33 says

BUT, for 98% of humanity, deviant sexual behavior is intolerable.

Incorrect, of course, since gayness isn't "deviant", LOL.

As for the less intellectually-dishonest point you were trying to make, the nicer places on this planet -- Scandinavia, Germany, France, blue-state USA -- love gay partnerships (in the majority).

The real shitholes -- we're talking KSA, Iran, Afghanistan, BFE Africa -- kill gays when they find them.

That's all that needs to be said about that.

Can you really conceptualize how utterly wrong you are about this?

I have my doubts.

Bap33 says

I say your assertion that "marriage" is a generic term for coupling

Damn, I can't even read the very first sentence of your response to the period before encountering a mistake. I have never asserted that marriage is a generic term for coupling. Where the hell did you get that?

I've stated that marriage is a religious institution and a social institution. I've also stated that marriage is a legal institution in the United States, but should not be because it is a religious and a social institution. The entire debate we and the rest of the country have been having is about the legal, secular institution of marriage and the secular laws regarding it including the filing of tax forms, the receiving of health insurance benefits and thousands of other benefits, and other legal rights conferred through marriage.

As for fucking -- I hate to break this to you, bap, well, actually I don't -- you can fuck without marriage. In fact, I assure you that no gay man is waiting for gay marriage to be legalize before engaging in man on man ass sex. I absolutely guarantee you that legalizing marriage will not increase gay sex. Marriage might decrease it like marriage has done to heterosexual sex.

Bap33 says

The word has meaning. It means what it means.

The meaning of the word marriage has change throughout history.

But that's not important. A word is just a bunch of letters arranged in a particular order that corresponds to one or more definitions in a dictionary. Words are not important. You could replace every word in any language with other combinations of letters, it would not make a material difference in the universe. Lexicon is not important.

What is important are legal rights. If your objection to gay marriage is you don't like the letters g-a-y preceding the letters m-a-r-r-i-a-g-e, then that's a pretty lame ass objection. And it's easy to remedy.

We'll simply search-and-replace all instances of the string "marriage" with the string "civil union" in all laws in our country whether federal, state, or local. Then the state won't recognize your marriage or anyone else's. The state would only recognize civil unions, which have nothing to do with marriages. On your tax form you would check one of the following: single, civil union, head of household. All benefits would be based on civil unions as well as rights such as hospital visitation.

Oh, and one more thing, there would be gay civil unions.

There, your objection is remedy quite simply. Instead of calling the legal institution "marriage", we'll call it civil unions. There will be no legal institution of marriage. The term would only apply to religious and social ceremonies. Then the gays and rational people could continue calling ceremonies involving gay couples exchanging vows marriage, and social conservatives could call those ceremonies whatever the fuck they want to. The debate over the word "marriage" would be reduced to arguing over whether or not golf is a sport. It would be an insignificant social issue with no real world effects rather than an important legal issue.

Of course, the important change of gays have equal standing to heterosexuals in the eyes of the law would be upheld. In this scenario, you are for gay marriage in all ways except the naming of the legal status. Big deal. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Bap33 says

Sexual deviants pulled "gay" out of their behinds and made it "mean" something it never ment.

I don't even know what you are trying to say here. If you're suggesting that gays coined the term "gay" as a marketing term, you are incorrect. The term gay was originally a derogative term used by people like you. See Online Etymology Dictionary.

In any case, the word itself is not important or relevant to this discussion. The question at hand is whether or not homosexuals and heterosexuals should have equal standing under law.

Bap33 says

Maybe the same needs to be done for the unnatural coupling that you suggest be recognized.

Whether or not gay marriage is recognized, homosexuals can and will have sex. And it is perfectly legal for them to do so. Any law preventing homosexuals from having sex is a human rights violation and would not be tolerated or enforceable in this country any more than a law prohibiting interracial sex. Thus the gay marriage debate is not about homosexual sex.

Furthermore, getting married does not mean the two people are having sex. Nor is it even a requirement. When gay marriage was legal in California, most of the weddings were old gay and lesbian couples who have been living together for decades and have long past the point where they wanted to fuck each other. They got married not for sex, but because they wanted to publicly acknowledge their relationships and obtain the same legal rights as heterosexual married couples. The 65-year-old lesbians getting married didn't go to town afterwards.

Also, homosexuality is natural. Stating that homosexuality is unnatural is a grotesquely ignorant statement that is trivially disproved. Things that happen in nature are natural by definition, and homosexual acts occur throughout nature. Do you really want me to start showing those videos here, because I can. Here's a little taste...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ggl5ZGaJFFM
Audio's a bit off, but you get the point.

With homosexuality rampant in nature, it's not hard for scientists to document this behavior extensively. But if you want to continue arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, I can supply much, much more physical evidence to the contrary.

Of course, even if something is unnatural that doesn't mean it's bad or should be outlawed. Automobiles are clearly unnatural. Do you want to ban NASCAR?

And rape is natural. Does that make it a good thing? Police, court systems, and jails are unnatural. Does that mean our government should release all the rapists from jail and disband the police? Our laws promote quite a few unnatural things even at the expense of natural things.

Bap33 says

Your demands for special consideration for non-productive, unnatural coupling, could be very bad for the republic.

You have reality completely backwards. It is not I who is advocating special consideration for homosexuality. It is you and the opponents of gay marriage who are advocating special (negative) consideration of homosexuality. The pro-gay marriage argument is that no one should get special consideration and all people are equal under laws. That's the exact opposite of what you just said.

Also, by your argument, a heterosexual couple in which one or both were infertile would not be legally allowed to marry. Are you really going to try to make that argument? What about the old widow and widower who meet over a game of bingo at the local church and then decide to get marry and spend their golden years together? They aren't marrying to have children and can't reproduce. Should their marriage be illegal? What about straight married couples who choose not to have children? Should they be forced by the state to get a divorce? I know many straight, married, childless by choice couples.

Furthermore, the republic has over 300 million people. We're not lacking in population. But if you are so concerned about under-population, there are 112 million Mexicans waiting at the border to alleviate your concerns. I'll tell them you said to come in.

But even if the United States were experiencing a population shortage crisis -- which quite frankly is a ridiculous idea as we, along with the rest of the world, are way overpopulated -- that would still be a completely ludicrous argument against gay marriage. It's not like a gay man is going to decide to marry a woman and father a child with her if only the state prevents him from marrying another man. Banning gay marriage isn't going to cause gays to turn straight or resort to heterosexual marriage and child bearing as the only alternative. What world do you live in that you think that is so?

Furthermore, it's perfectly possible through artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood for gays and lesbians to have their own children including with each other's DNA. Take a human egg cell, remove the egg's DNA, add DNA from both same-sex parents, plant egg in surrogate or, in the future, artificial womb, wait nine months, and take out. If you add any male's Y chromosome to the mix, lesbian parents can even have male children.

For all these reasons, your argument that somehow gay marriage would be bad for the republic doesn't hold water. Was interracial marriage bad for the republic?

Bap33 says

If you were to take all of those whom you represent and create your own republic, how might you plan to reproduce?

Well, they could do like I said above, but that's not the point.

Do you really base your worldview on the idea that a society has to be made of homogonous entities? Everyone has to think and act identically. Everyone in the nation has to be straight or everyone has to be gay? Homogonous societies are doomed to fail because they cannot compete with heterogeneous societies if only because only heterogeneous societies can accommodate specialization and all the economic benefits that arise from specialization.

The society the rest of us envision has heterosexual and homosexual people living side-by-side not giving a rat's ass about each other's sexuality except when they are interested in forming romantic relationships. Otherwise, it's none of your business. We envision a society where sexual orientation is not used to subjugate any people. We want a society of rights, not privileges. We want a society where all men are created equal and have equal protection of law. Why is that a hard concept for your side to grasp?

Bap33 says

The act of sex and marriage are not allowed with a person that is not of sound mind, or not of age.

Neither of which is an argument against gay marriage. Homosexuals are certainly of sound mind and legal age. Just because you consider homosexuality to be a mental disorder doesn't make it so. I consider social conservatism and religious beliefs to be a mental disorder and I can do a hell of a better job justifying that those things are disorders than you can that homosexuality is a disorder. Do you really want to open the door to me getting the government to take away the privilege to vote from anyone who attends church? Belief in a god that does not exist is by definition a delusion, and delusional people do not have the right to vote because they are mentally incapable of rational decision making. This argument is far stronger than your argument that homosexuality is a mental disorder.

Bap33 says

I submit that having sex with a person who is suffering from uncontrollable deviant desires, or from a birth defect that has rendered them a sexual deviant, is sexual abuse.

Just because a person chooses to have consensual sex with another person does not make that choice "uncontrollable" or "deviant". It is no more an uncontrollable desire when two men have sex than it is when a man and a woman have sex. Furthermore, it is a human right for men and women to choose their own consensual sexual partners. Moreover, it is not a birth defect to be homosexual or bisexual.

It would take a lot more than your submission that homosexuality is a mental disorder or birth defect to justify any consideration of this position by the state. It would take substantial concrete proof to justify the state outlawing a basic and highly valued human behavior.

Bap33 says

It is disgusting the way the mentally challenged and/or physically handicapped are being targeted by sexual deviants. Shameful. ANd you suggest the Gov sanction such abuse?? Why?

Just because you find homosexual sex disgusting doesn't make it so. That is your opinion and nothing more. I find faith as disgusting and despicable as you find homosexuality -- and I'm not exaggerating here -- but that does not mean the state should ban faith. Heck, I even find man on man ass sex icky, but I don't want to ban it. As for lesbian sex, I need to do much more research before coming to a conclusion on that. Any lesbians out there want to help me with my studies?

But more to the point, your accusation that homosexuals are abusing each other and behaving shamefully is not only ridiculous, but it is actually quite offensive to the loving same-sex couples out there. Imagine if you said that a white person having sex with a black person is shameful, disgusting, and abusive because all black persons are mentally challenged and/or physically handicapped and therefore incapable of consenting to sex. Image how much that would offend people. Guess what? You're comments are just as offensive and for the exact same reasons.

By recognizing gay marriage, government isn't sanctioning sexual abuse of the handicapped. However, by banning gay marriage, government is sanctioning the same kind of social injustice that existed during segregation. A ban on gay marriage is essentially the same kind of dehumanization that took place on the basis of race before the civil rights movement.

Dan8267 says

Marriage might decrease it like marriage has done to heterosexual sex.

lmao ... you are one funny dude.

I do not equate a birth defect or a perversion with the race issue. But, I may be alone in that. You see, the race issue is not really about true race or ethnic background, it's about outward appearance, lingo, and style of dress. Things that Billy-Bob could see at a glance. Totally not cool. On the other hand, there is no way for Billy-Bob to know which males want to sodomize/be sodomized by other males - unless said males say they do, act like they do, or dress like they do. Even then no court in the land could convict a male of sodomy based on any of that, while a negro can be proven to be negro fairly easily. Billy-Bob was an idiot about negros coupling with non-negros. And even worse when it came to Jews.

When you tell me how the courts plan to KNOW a person is actually a life-time member of the gay community, without any chance of changing that role, then I may be able to understand what all the trouble is about. Right now, it's all hear-say. The negros that were being mistreated can be known by the court, on site. Plus, there has never been a negro that stopped being negro out of shame, conviction, personal growth, hormone theropy, testosterone theropy, or just plain boredom. Not yet, anyway. Negro is not a birth defect.

I don't like this subject much. It's a bit disturbing.

Gay folks could buddy up with pairs from the other team, have agreed marriages of convienance, and enjoy all the tax benifits of marriage, and the butt sex. Right? Or no?

seriously, your last post had some very good humor. Thanks for being a good sport.

It is true that the male/male vision is not seen in the minds eye the same way the chick/chick vision is. That could be a whole discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

Dan, your lengthy post is simply much todo about nothing. Real marriage has been around for countless generations, approximately 2,000 years. Then, magically around 1995, when radical gays came out of the closet, they want to "redefine" marriage, change the meaning of the word, force everyone to accept their definition, and show zero tolerance to anyone who disagrees with their "new" definition.

I think I'm going to redefine the word "voluntary" when it comes to taxes in 2013. From now on the new definition of the word voluntary will be mandatory.

We "voluntarily" pay taxes now which is new speek for manditory (the opposite of). My new definition of voluntary
is manditory, which in double new speek actually means volunatrily.

In other words, pre-2013 I voluntarily paid taxes because I was actually forced to. Now the word voluntary means manditory...the opposite of which is NON-manditory...so I won't be paying taxes in 2013 - get it?

Oh, I have another brilliant liberal idea, lets change the definition of an automobiles brake pedal to gas pedal. From now on, each car will have two gas pedals but no brake pedal. That makes perfect (liberal) sense, right?

Kinda reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw the other day: "Both my mommies support Obama" (two gas pedals, no brake pedal - anything wrong with that picture?).

Honest Abe says

Dan, your lengthy post is simply much todo about nothing.

It is obvious by your posts that you're a complete jerk, homophobe, racist, white trash simpleton with zero intellect. The only reason why you are whining and playing the victim card is because you and your views are irrelevant, incoherent, and are simply no longer held by the majority, if they ever truly were. You are no longer able to make these rants without being called out on them. Yes, I suppose it gives you some negative energy getting all jacked up on your imagined victimization. I suppose you must feel like the white man did when apartheid was ending in South Africa in the 80s/90s. A spoiled brat who is simply running scared because laws making others 'less than' were ending, exposing who was/is truly less than.

In the end, you are simply a bad person. It must truly be difficult to be you. What is sadder is that no one even cares.