patrick.net

marcus says

Is it really all that radical to think that in some ways they might have been more evolved than us ?

More evolved? What on earth do you mean by that?

Bigsby says

What on earth do you mean by that?

I meant it loosely speaking. That they may have had some attributes that have been lost. These attributes would not have to be physiological. They could be social or spiritual, or even just some combination of habits that were very ingrained which no longer are.

Such things can become physiological in a way, I would think, over a period of many generations.

Bap, grab a calculator. Use his estimate (accurate, based upon his numbers) of how many stones/minute based upon a full year of work. That's .5 stones a minute (2 minutes per stone). Now re-calculate based upon 3 months of work per year (1/4 of a year). If you have 1/4 of the time, you have to work 4 times as fast to get the same work done. That's 1 stone every 30 seconds - not every 2 seconds, as he says.

And that's all using his assumptions. Yes, because there were some egyptian farmers among the workers, they just dropped all work on the pyramids in the other 9 months out of the year. It's just not possible to have any division of labor! And surely there were no slaves working ... and surely it took exactly 20 years!

Not to disparage the accomplishment - surely it's monumental. I'm just correcting obviously flawed calculations that are based upon assumed numbers.

Why do so many believe it's impossible to replicate their work with even today's technology? Yes, the pyramids are impressive, but if you really think we couldn't do the same - or much greater - you've got your head in the sand. If anyone cared to, we could build pyramids that would make the egyptian pyramids look like piles of stones in the desert. We've gone into space, traveled to the moon, we can FLY around the world in hours.

If the ancient egyptians saw what we can do today - if they saw the marvels of engineering that are modern buildings ... they would be astonished. The only thing that astonishes me about the pyramids is how much work was done for something of so little real benefit. If only they had focused on education and useful infrastructure, they could have flourished as a society on a much grander scale, even if their buildings didn't last as long.

1 stone every day would be impossible .... impossible.

@Bigsby,
The "liberal" tag comes from your "smart people know there is no God", plus your odd view that the only interaction between religion and science on this planet is the Spanish Inquisition. Those things are kinda like Holy Grail for the relgion of liberalism. You may say you are something else, like "progressive" and "independant" ,or even "educated", but I just went with the most likely tag that applies to that smartassed smug egocentric view that you shared. Forgive me if I was wrong.

You are wrong about your opinion of man's building abilities. There are THOUSANDS of stones we can not move or replicate their positioning. THOUSANDS. You will not read nor listen to any information that does not fit the box you have placed history in.

You do realize that science refused to admit that large astorids could even hit earth until this century, right? Refused!! Why? Because it messed up their structured plan of how earth history needs to piece together for them to be right and for the Sumerian texts, and Dead Sea Scrolls to be wrong. So far, the Sumerians are still correct.

@Matt,
the time frame is given by the Eqyptians that want the pyramids to be a tomb built for a particular leader. They would have had to be built during that guys lifetime at the least. I said go ahead and blow it out to 50 years, and work 24 hours around the clock ,,, it is still impossible. Totally not even close.

You folks that do not trust or believe in spiritual things are now in a tuff spot. You have to keep believing that the early humans that figured out farming, schools, medicine, animal husbandry, calendars, writing, math, counting, money, family, tribe, voting, chiefs, forks, knives, tools, fire, textiles ... pretty much everything that was needed for man to survive the ice ages and get us to this point ...... and they built these huges momuments and sky-viewed pictures, and lived life with a focus on the spiritual ... well, they were all wrong and your godless universe where man is all there is, is all there is. I happen to disagree with you and agree with ancient man and the Apache.

@marcus,
I enjoy this subject. I think the ego required to think "now" is somehow more relevant than "then" is one very big ego. That may be how they make themselves believe that man causes global climate changes.(?)

Bigsby says

And what's so strange about there being no body and no treasure? There's a bloody great sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid

1) There was a big assed stone lid covering a box. It was ASSUMED to be a tomb until the lid was removed. A multi-ton lid. And inside was nothing. Not a bone, not a rock, not a clump of hair, no spider, no ant, no writing. Under a closed, multi-ton lid. So, what, EXACTLY, makes this box, sitting in a pyramid that had no entrance and had to be blasted into, a tomb .. and not just a myserious box? The evidence it is a "sarcophagus", and not just a large sealed box inside a large sealed box, has not been made known to me. Please link it for me, thanks.

Bap33 says

1 stone every day would be impossible .... impossible.

Oh? And you know this how? You've tried, with an army of men and generations of practice?

And you KNOW that the pyramids were built for a specific ruler - and there were never cases where a ruler died and his/her successor decided to assume the unfinished pyramid and rewrite a part of history?

I always find it funny when superstitious people accuse 'atheists' of certainty without proof. For most of us 'atheists', the issue is that we're willing to accept that we dont understand some things. We just don't understand them. I don't need to invent some mythology to explain everything I can't otherwise explain, and I don't need to blindly assume others who fear the unknown so much that they must attempt to explain everything.

You won't find me claiming that there is no god - or flying spagetti monster. All I'll claim is that absent any evidence whatsoever I find the concepts pretty silly. The absence of an explanation for everything is not proof of a divine - it's just proof that we don't know everything (surprise surprise).

The video in the original post in this thread is borderline retarded. It presents a straw man position of atheists, a position of certainty about things that present opportunities for contradiction. Who says that atheists all believe that every effect must have a cause? It's just bloody obvious that all of our experiences suggest this is the trend, so it's probably wise to expect to find a cause when we find an effect. Calling it a law doesn't change anything. The video essentially says that atheists can't explain what caused or came before the big bang, therefor there must not have been any big bang. Well, we don't know that there was one - we just see everything moving radially out from a central direction. Is it stupider to believe that at one point all the matter was closer together - given it's current trajectory - and that something happened to blow it all outward ....
or is it more stupid to believe that some unprovable and inexplicable divine entity that loves us but works in intentionally mysterious ways set all the gears into motion and is quietly (usually) watching over us?

I know which explanation comforts children more, I'll let you guess. Let me summarize:
1) We just don't know, but hey here are some interesting observations and theories that explain parts of what we see
2) God loves you. Don't worry about what's under your bed or hiding in shadows, because everything happens for a reason and god - the ultimate reason-creator loves you. Just be good.

And lastly - I can understand why people might hate atheists, sort of. Sure, some of them do preach. But remember, even an atheist who doesn't care to talk about it will constantly be bombarded by crazy religious people who INSIST on saving souls. It gets old having people say crazy things to you, things with no basis in observable reality, often things that defy all experiences ever recorded or personally experienced, and often things patently false (like that guy's math - no comments on that Bap? Oh that's right - you KNOW it's impossible. Bap, master engineer, doth say so.). Is it really so wrong to preach back at people? If it is - I sure hope no religious people bother to reply to my comments here.

not a bad post.

mind watching this one? It's pretty cool too.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/KFjvgzpHr88&feature=g-wl

marcus says

I meant it loosely speaking. That they may have had some attributes that have been lost. These attributes would not have to be physiological. They could be social or spiritual, or even just some combination of habits that were very ingrained which no longer are.

Such things can become physiological in a way, I would think, over a period of many generations.

Well, they obviously had some practices and knowledge that have been lost over time because beliefs changed or it was no longer necessary to do things that way, but that clearly isn't a matter of being more evolved. If you are going to say anything, then surely referring to them as a more primitive society would be the logical route.

Bap33 says

1) There was a big assed stone lid covering a box. It was ASSUMED to be a tomb until the lid was removed. A multi-ton lid. And inside was nothing. Not a bone, not a rock, not a clump of hair, no spider, no ant, no writing. Under a closed, multi-ton lid. So, what, EXACTLY, makes this box, sitting in a pyramid that had no entrance and had to be blasted into, a tomb .. and not just a myserious box? The evidence it is a "sarcophagus", and not just a large sealed box inside a large sealed box, has not been made known to me. Please link it for me, thanks.

Ah, an internet expert. I presume your years of research puts you ahead of every reputed egyptologist on the planet.

Bap33 says

The "liberal" tag comes from your "smart people know there is no God", plus your odd view that the only interaction between religion and science on this planet is the Spanish Inquisition.

Eh? Where did I mention anything about the Spanish inquisition?

Bap33 says

You are wrong about your opinion of man's building abilities. There are THOUSANDS of stones we can not move or replicate their positioning. THOUSANDS. You will not read nor listen to any information that does not fit the box you have placed history in.

What are you talking about? I mean seriously, what is it you are saying? That there are thousands of stones we cannot move or replicate their positioning? So let me get this straight, we can build a skyscraper to just short of 900m, but we can't move a few stones or position them pointing a certain way. Ho, ho. Do you actually think aliens did it?

Bap33 says

You folks that do not trust or believe in spiritual things are now in a tuff spot. You have to keep believing that the early humans that figured out farming, schools, medicine, animal husbandry, calendars, writing, math, counting, money, family, tribe, voting, chiefs, forks, knives, tools, fire, textiles ... pretty much everything that was needed for man to survive the ice ages and get us to this point ...... and they built these huges momuments and sky-viewed pictures, and lived life with a focus on the spiritual ... well, they were all wrong and your godless universe where man is all there is, is all there is. I happen to disagree with you and agree with ancient man and the Apache.

Those are some remarkable achievements. How did we ever manage to come up with such things over thousands of years? You'd think we had developed speech and were possessors of reasonable brain power.

And you agree with ancient man and the apache? Those are rather a lot of differing views on spirituality that you must have swirling around your brain. No wonder you are so confused.

Bap33 says

I enjoy this subject. I think the ego required to think "now" is somehow more relevant than "then" is one very big ego. That may be how they make themselves believe that man causes global climate changes.

We're alive now, so I guess that now is just a tad more relevant to most people than life 5,000 years ago.

And it's not ego that makes people think humans are changing the climate, it's science.

ok Bigsby, you are not interested in a point of view or information that does not fit into your life box. Enjoy your libtopian view, no biggy. Cheers.

oh, you asked where you mentioned the Spanish Inquisitian .... you never did ... but, you kept refering to great minds of science that would pretend to be spiritual, or profess a belief in God, just to keep from being found out by the Big Bad Catholic Church .. right? Well, believe it or not, that was a movement to rid Europe of the evil islamists (begining) and Jews (continues), but ended up being a real bummer for science guys too. Galileo had to go before the Inquisition (not in Spain, but the same system), and a whole bunch of Jewish astrometers were killed by the Catholics too .... so, I was just connecting your dots. If you were not referring to the Catholic Churches way of keeping science quiet, then what were you talking about?

@marcus and matt and others,
did you watch that second show? what did you think?

Bap33 says

oh, you asked where you mentioned the Spanish Inquisitian .... you never did ... but, you kept refering to great minds of science that would pretend to be spiritual, or profess a belief in God, just to keep from being found out by the Big Bad Catholic Church .. right? Well, believe it or not, that was a movement to rid Europe of the evil islamists (begining) and Jews (continues), but ended up being a real bummer for science guys too. Galileo had to go before the Inquisition (not in Spain, but the same system), and a whole bunch of Jewish astrometers were killed by the Catholics too .... so, I was just connecting your dots. If you were not referring to the Catholic Churches way of keeping science quiet, then what were you talking about?

a. I didn't say they all pretended. Obviously the great majority of them were believers of one religion or another as was just about everybody not that long ago.
b. There are rather more religions than Catholicism. Religious leaders and their followers have persecuted people throughout history.
c. You said, and I quote, "your odd view that the only interaction between religion and science on this planet is the Spanish Inquisition." I quite clearly said no such thing.

ok

Bap33 says

ok Bigsby, you are not interested in a point of view or information that does not fit into your life box. Enjoy your libtopian view, no biggy. Cheers.

Actually, I am interested in life in ancient Egypt. I spent 3 months or so travelling around Egypt when I was 18. It was fascinating. That doesn't mean I'm interested in being a follower of Ra, Amun, Isis, Horus, Osiris, Set, Khepri, Anubis etc. etc. though. Why would I be?

How the hell did a conversation about the existence of god get thrown off course to one about the pyramids?

Either let this thread die with an atheist win, or bring it back to the subject by having some theist rebut my thrashing of the video.

Dan8267 says

Either let this thread die with an atheist win, or bring it back to the subject by having some theist rebut my thrashing of the video.

See you're already starting to blow a 50 amp fuse.

Arguing with a preachy religious person is kind of like talking to that foreign guy who speaks no english and who's host family for his visit to the US taught him that to say "I do not speak english, sorry" in english he has to say "Yes, I understand, I speak english" (a hilarious prank to pull on a non-english speaker, btw!). It's easy to get frustrated because it seems like the person understands the conversation, but in the end they really don't.

Gentle Readers,
I'm starting to get a headache.
Regards,
Roidy

Well I can still hear the horse breathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=PgThaSd9m-4&NR=1

Bap33 says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=PgThaSd9m-4&NR=1

What exactly do you think you are demonstrating with this video?

Interesting some things that were "removed" from the original wittings. Hmmm. I lived with a girl. A Chinese girl. Next to the Emory campus for about 2 years. Second largest theologial library in the world. I like Asian girls. They have no "hang-ups". The largest theological library in the world is at Oxford in England.

This thing is filled 3 floors size of the Metropolitan library in NY with nothing but theological material some of it ancient. I found it all fascinating myself. I thought about going to school there. My best friend Fred a Semite went there we used to have some heavy talks about life and what was what. I thought hey with a few minor disagreements. Freds people were not my people of course. I would book on in there and try to settle some things or rather we could both fine tune some points of difference. I liked Fred. Fred was a cool cat.

First off no one out there knows how this thing started. Anyone that says they do is a Space rambler. I don't care if your a Christian or oil pan you don't know what happened. Thats only sense. There is no way you could know.

Fred thought it was funny me living with a Chinese girl. I thought Fred dating a southern girl was fairly hysterical myself. Fred was loaded by the way.

One thing that was left out was a part about Abraham. I found that highly interesting. I also had a really good friend that was gay. I wanted to know some things. Me and two of his friends were going to have dinner they got in a discussion about Sodom and Gomorrah. I listened. This was a long time ago of course. I am a hip city guy. So I got around. Something didn't make to sense to me while I was listening to the conversation. I'm thinking this is town filled with men? WTF. Somewhere on the earth but no place I've ever heard of. Wheres the fucking lesbians I wondered? I thought why this story in the first place?

I didn't go looking to repute this strange story to begin with. I know better. Thats one big fucking library. I did find some interesting things because I spent a good amount of time in there. Emory girls well theres a lot of Foreign girls there to. Its a very expensive school. I find it wise to be distracted by girls when doing research. Helps with your uh concentration......

Sodom and Gomorrah mind you I will not dispute the orginal Hebrew writing about sex issues. That I could not find anything on however those were rules for Hebrews and no one else. That I did find. Sodom is a Greek word. That is not the original word. In the originial writing Lot was sent to the town. Because the people of the plains were stealing Abrahams things. Not the things with him. The people of the town were like oh a hillbilly clan like oh Deliverance wouldn't fit of course. They were theives. Lot went in there told them. Stop stealing Abrahams. They threatened to kill him. He left. Then there was an earthquake according to the writting. It also listed the things that were stolen. No gays. No sex involved whatsoever. One other part I found is where.

God says I give you Abraham whats older than the oldest hills. WTF is that? Heaven? Great gift God I guess he was just another rube waiting for the last days. So that didn't make sense. Further along in the text it listed what he had rights to that no one else had. Things like coal and iron and copper, magnesium. That made sense seeing what other planets are made of. Shit I though I get to go home and slap my GF around. Why did that take that out. Who knows. Maybe the jealousy of some people that felt they didn't get anything and deserved it. So basically Abraham had all mineral rights on the earth. Thats where the term "mineral rights" came from. See that for whoever left that out that was motive. The gay part is a highly charged social issue given the Hebrew writing. Which were Hebrew teachings. Whoever had those had no business with them in the first place. As it was denoted those were INSTRUCTIONS FOR HEBREWS ONLY. Take the older than the oldest hills to the Jesus story it makes sense sorta. That is if you add in the fact that everyone gets to labor and certain people get to make off with everything else because well they know that, that part for there intended is bullshit anyway. So the question here might be who knows what? See. I'm not so sure that everyone thats on top understands how this stuff was changed. So before I go pointing my finger saying GUILTY!. My search would be to find the perpetrators. Who exactly was perpetrated. No reasoning with anyone here. Just plain fact. It isn't a point of reason. Just finding who put story in there left the orignal writing out. Being gay. Which I am not is a fact of life. It's really no ones business. Just like my sex life is no ones business. That story that was inserted is one of the most malicious things I have ever encountered. Once again that was a highly charged sociological issue given the Hebrew writings that never should have been in any other peoples hands. The text was very clear about that that text was for the Hebrews only. See several other semetic relgious writing take from the Hebrew writings. Thats not supposed to be according to Hebrew writing. That in itself is considered stealing from the Hebrews. So according to "Hebrew" writing. Gays aren't in trouble, unless they are Hebrew. However some other syncopants are in deep shit according to "Hebrew" text for stealing Hebrew belongings. Don't bother debating with me I have the proof.

Bigsby says

Bap33 says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=PgThaSd9m-4&NR=1

What exactly do you think you are demonstrating with this video?

me? nothing, just found it interesting. You can argue with the experts on the matter. I just listen and do some light fact checking, but I am not an expert. Do you enjoy the topic?

Deal is am I a liberal nope. Conservative nope. Athiest nope. Believer in God nope. I'm not stupid enough to get thrown in a box and get mailed. When something avoids making sense. Like no ones upset about oh S&M or incest. Or anything like that makes me fucking wonder. Why lean so heavy on this deal? Obviously they can say anything they want. Which to me something so obscure is being made such a big deal of in the first place, makes me think it's hiding something else. I don't see any reason to limit my friendships or aquaintances based on what someone else thinks. Someones prejudice or someones FEAR of someone else. So the menace is contained. Praise God or that just the way people are. Different strokes. Go to FT Lauderdale (best beach in FL) and watch the Sunrise. Makes you wonder.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Go to FT Lauderdale (best beach in FL)

Um that would be NO. IT had its day, but that was way before City hall destroyed everything that made Ft Laud beach, Ft Laud Beach.

CaptainShuddup says

ArtimusMaxtor says

Go to FT Lauderdale (best beach in FL)

Um that would be NO. IT had its day, but that was way before City hall destroyed everything that made Ft Laud beach, Ft Laud Beach.

I guess that depends on what your going to the beach for. The Los Olas beach in Ft. Lauderdale has the best water, nice and green-blue. The Bahamas have more such water, but that's not FL.

http://www.globeimages.net/data/media/5/north_view_fort_lauderdale_beach.jpg

http://www.travelwithyourkids.com/sites/travelwithyourkids.com/themes/fusion/twyk/images/10.jpg

South Beach in Miami is full of hot nudists. So that's a plus.

Delray Beach has nice pretty sand and a good coastline.

Boca's beach right off of Spanish River is convenient and there's few people there in the morning.

Jet skiing and para-sailing are available in Ft. Lauderdale by the River Queen. Everyone should jet ski and para-sail at least once in their lives.

I want access to the beach is what I look for in a beach. I don't want to feed the meeter more than I'll spend for lunch at the beach, and I damn sure don't want a $35.00 ++ ticket for expired meeter. I would be nice if I could find a picnic table, or at least some selfish family who's nationality I'll leave out(but you south Floridians know exactly who and what I'm talking about) didn't grab all 5 available picnic tables and huddle them under their pavilion with nothing more than a beach towel on each to suggest they are reserved, for their army of noise makers, that either may or may not show up, but they aren't there now.

I'd like the beach clean, people get off their lazy ass and walk back to the boardwalk to where the garbage cans are, and throw their shit away, instead of just leaving it in a heap where they sat.

Oh who am I kidding, South Florida hasn't seen a beach like that since Nick Navarro was Sheriff.

CaptainShuddup says

I don't want to feed the meeter

Yeah, all beaches should have free public parking. The beach is a public resource that should be enjoyable by the whole public without parasitic rent seekers holding it hostage.

Anyway, if you live in Boca, you can get a beach parking pass for like $65/yr. Then you can park as much as often as you like in one of the city beach parking lots. It's a good deal if you go to the beach a lot.

Downtown Hollywood got so out of hand, that people quit going. The place was a ghost town, 24/7. December last year, the city at the behest of the struggling businesses, took away the meeters and instilled free parking. The place is booming now, like it's the summer of 2003.

People want to enjoy them selves they don't want to sweat the meeter, when there's a hefty expired meeter charge. Back in the day when the ticket was 5 or 10 bucks, people would just let it expire. Now it's $35.00 and if you don't pay in full with in 48 hours, it has another hefty charge levied on top of that. Then there was the slew of bank parking lots that seemed to be free parking, or that had served as such for years. Then all of sudden, with out warning, people started getting towed from those lots. Then about the time, the City installed paver sidewalks, and landscape, and installed those awful meeters that you had to kneel down on your knees to feed the meeter dollar bills it would most always spit the bills back at you, or it may or may not connect to the buggy Hollywood Wi-Fi and not validate your credit/debit card. Either way it was a pain in the ass, just to feed the meeter and often enough, you would have to walk further and further down the block trying each machine as you went along until you found one that took your money/card.

Me calling a religous person a space jockey is a euphemism its a belittling. I never said I believed in God or not thats a good way to get thrown in a box and get mailed somewhere get catalouged and categorized. So I'm not going to get in arguments about something no one really knows nothing about like fucking outer space or the beginnings. Where I'm coming from is where that book started the bible who, how, what, where, when and why that book was put together. I understand it completely and the motives for putting that book together. There was motive a lot of it. It's not simply a book that sits on table somewhere. It's something that people are active with and utilize in there life. Thats where the athiest fucks up getting in some outer space argument. Where he really fucks up is when he thinks some government that keep perpetrating the book. BY DIVIDING RELIGION AND STATE. Is somehow on his side. Its stupid knowing and seeing how they divide up the people in every other way to trust anything that do but to cause fighting amoung people. They foster they promote it they do it ever fucking day. Day in and day out. Thats the failing of an athiest where he ever thinks hes going to get a fair shake from a government that needs good well behaved religious children to believe everything they do and say.

Bap33 says

@ellie,

You are 100% on the mark. Great post.

is this a 'come on'??

you must have missed the thred where I shared how silly it is to give personage to on-line posters. There is no sex, no male nor female, no race, no weight nor hight, and therefore there is no reason for a "come-on".

Let me demonstrate:
I am a 24 year old blonde female 36D / 28 / 32 who is famous in the porn industry
wait .. now I am a 46 year old negro male in prison for gang rape of a male corrections officer
no .. wait .. I am a 74 year old retired fireman that was second in line to go to the moon when I was in the Apollo program ...
see how it works? There is no sex, creed, color, or any personage other than letters on a screen. Hope that helps.
Good day.

besides, she's married, I'm married, and she doesn't really like my political views. But, she is nice.

Bap33 says

you mean, other than the fact that we cant build a pyramid as perfect today?

Dang...someone clearly hasn't Partied at the Luxor in Vegas!! If you can get pass the bedbugs you will see a more perfect pyramid with a much more juciey filling

Bigsby says

I spent 3 months or so travelling around Egypt when I was 18. It was fascinating.

Did you go to the Pizza Hut in Cairo? If so, what size and what kindsa toppings do they have over there? I slung dough for PH when I was in high school. But not on Cairo.

Bap33 says

You do realize that science refused to admit that large astorids could even hit earth until this century, right? Refused!!

Uhh, I assume by "this century" you mean the past century or so. Otherwise I think you'll find a little incident that happened on Jupiter, recorded by Hubble sort of established the empirical record in real-time.

Irrespective, I didn't realize what you claim because it's categorically false. I'm pretty sure that Kepler, Galileo and Copernicus were from earlier centuries (though I'm not sure if that violates some fundamentalist math somewhere). They all "admitted" that large extrplanetary bodies were not only likely, but destined to continue colliding with the Earth. And then there's always Newton (also not from this century).

Randy H says

And then there's always Newton (also not from this century).

That Newton. The one who lost money in the South Sea Bubble. Too bad there was no patrick.net back then. I wonder what bubble-deniers in that period looked like.

I don't want to deny the possibility that the Egyptians had help. Partly because that sounds so cool. Perhaps they were working with the Atlanteans too.

More importantly, we just don't know enough to prove or disprove that. It is entirely possible that there was an hugely advanced civilization (with social networks and all) before our known history. We probably will never find out.

I think we tend to underestimate human ingenuity. With enough motivation we prove a rather resourceful lot. If the Egyptians were motivated to build their monoliths -- and they were -- then they figured out a way.