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After all of this, has "Bubble mentality" been diminished?
invite response
2011 Sep 29, 12:32am 28,080 views 89 comments
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Employers don't just go where something is cheaper; they go where the labor is cheapest.
This may be true for many companies, such as car manufacturers setting up shop in China or Alabama. OTOH, San Francisco is not cheap, and arguably has one of the highest wage cities in the nation. So why is it that Google, Apple, Yahoo, Facebook as well as all the high tech biotech and pharma doing here? Why aren't they setting up shop in Birmingham, AL or Fargo, ND? It is because they are highly successful companies only because they can attract the brightest of the bright who chose to cluster in such cities as SF because they are creative, offer lots to do, are geographically pretty, have lots of other like minded people, are liberal enough to make life enjoyable for about anyone, etc. It costs a lot for these companies to park it here in SF and pay huge salaries to boot. Yes, they can move to Fargo, but most of the brightest are not going to follow, and thus their company will suffer and probably crash and burn as well. So in the end, it is worth it to pay the highest for the best. Fargo anyone?
I should also add, this is why you will also find some of the highest real estate prices in places like SF, NYC, Vancouver, Vienna or London, etc. and not Cleveland, OH; Buffalo, NY; Detroit, MI; Calcutta, IN; or Lagos, Nigeria.
Gross margin is a fuction of receipts - direct cost. If you believe in profits based on top line growth, you also attract talent to reach top line (I'll give you a 50K raise if you add 500K in value for us). If you believe gross margin should be achieved on cutting cost, then yeah, find the cheapest employee possible to do job. (We'll make 50K more if we hire someone cheaper)
Start-ups always take the top line approach.
Totally agree with all.
To give Zaphod his due, in my example, I am sure that most all the folks who work in Cuppurtino, for Apple, are paid very handsomely - from the person who mops the floors to the CEO/CFOs. OTOH, Apple makes up for the high cost of designing, creativity and innovation here in CA with relative low cost production labor in China which actually makes and assembles their products. Those poor suckers in China are so overworked every time there is a major new production release the suicide rate at their China factories goes up. (I am not sure if it also spikes here in Cuppertino). It will most likely be no different with the release of iPhoneV next month. Even so, the argument still holds. As of yet anyways, Apple has no plans to move its entire company anywhere cheaper, say like China where they have the bulk of their production facilities. They are setting up shop for the long haul, right here in the way expensive SF Bay area.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Oct 1, 1:05am
Ipads and Iphones came from Silicon Valley
Apple was Cool and Hip, before, too. When Jobs was the creative force behind the Mac. Then the Army of Sycophants came along to join the ride, personified in the person of John Sculley. What could go wrong? They were so much smarter than everyone else, because they were in Silicon Valley, they had fancy degrees from fancy schools, and they were beknighted by the personnel department at APPL. Right?
It took one smart person, a local prodigal son of Santa Clara County, one without any fancy degrees from any fancy schools, it rescue the company from itself with his vision for products and services. For whatever reason, the Army of oh-so-smart folks with fancy degrees from fancy schools nearly drove the company into the ground before his return.
Apple is all about the intelligence,vision and tenacity of Steve Jobs. It is not about the fancy degrees from fancy schools of the fancy people.
Amazon, and Nokia are moving in the area as well
Yeah right. Maybe those companies got to where they are now because they weren't till now staffed by gold rush people with gold rush mentalities rushing to Cool and Hip Silicon Valley.
It took one smart person, a local prodigal son of Santa Clara County, one without any fancy degrees from any fancy schools, it rescue the company from itself with his vision for products and services.
Good point. It should be noted, if not already obvious, that education IS NOT necessarily indicative of wisdom or intelligence but rather conformity and tenacity. Somehow though, Apple has been successful in recruiting enough people with all of the above, plus creative, out of the box thinking smarts.
Apple was Cool and Hip, before, too. When Jobs was the creative force behind the Mac. Then the Army of Sycophants came along to join the ride, personified in the person of John Sculley. What could go wrong? They were so much smarter than everyone else, because they were in Silicon Valley, they had fancy degrees from fancy schools, and they were beknighted by the personnel department at APPL. Right?
Lets put the question to a long time x-apple employee ... see what he says.
That's kind of the value in engineering and design in Silicon Valley and web applications in San Francisco, you create something that can build 1B in value, I'll pay multi-millions to get the team that can get there. In other words, paying an engineer 200K in SV vs. 100K in Austin, I rather pay 200K to get a little more assurance of success.
But that isnt how its done... you can talk to any CFO out there... or better yet speak to any FPA staffer and they will enlighen you with reality of how things are really done in SV. $200K only go the the VP officers as comp, not the line employees.
"Bubble mentality"
During the great Tech boom of the 80s we didnt see bubbles in stock nor in housing. Yes, prices for homes were "frothy" but hardly the massive bubble we saw more recently.
Now after some 30 years, as the local tech industries have greatly matured and greatly shrunk, here comes the bubble heads claiming otherwise. Someone is going to come here and want 200K in salary after all is done.
Ipad/Ipod toys have been evolving for many decades with semis circuits. It took years years/decades to get to this point. Now some claim, anyone can just waltz into the region, with degree in hand and claim a higher salary ($200K) and other comp, than employees who actually worked on such products. Just to buy a bubble house. Crazy thinking...
Yep, bubble mentality is still around...
bigbubblemama
2011 Oct 1, 3:26am
We may still be in a bubble for housing in all/ some areas, I just can't figure it out, too many variables??. I am glad to hear so many thoughtful opinions shared here, it helps fill in the variables for me. Edvard2 thanks for starting this thread. I just feel like the calibration in housing is taking so long and is often disrupted by the government. I think the fed and states just can't let the prices fall on housing because if governments don't get their property tax money they will bankrupt which will start new cascades and calibrations in the economy. Our governments will do alot to keep their paycheck coming,.
No one wants to spend more that they have to for anything. But we all want and desire housing to some degree. A home whether you rent or buy is probably your largest cost each month(unless your paid off with low property tax or live with mom and dad etc). I think each person deciding on housing is balancing quality of life decision with financial outlay combined with their crystal ball estimate. Whatever all of our decisions/actions are as a whole will determine the outcome. We just have to combine all the parts to form the whole crystal ball.
Employers don't just go where something is cheaper; they go where the labor is cheapest
That's true and also interesting because sometimes there can be a spike up in labor costs. The last place I worked at the top hourly rates were in SF, NYC (Brooklyn but NOT Staten Island), LA and New Orleans....why the last one? After Katrina they couldn't find enough people.
I'm not claiming that we'll see another bubble in 2012 but I will say this. I'm predicting that any business that is waiting for the housing market to come back probably won't see any significant gains on a national scale for awhile. With this being the case richer companies are probably waiting for other ones to gradually slide. I predict within five years we are going to see some significant mergers in anything related to housing.
Besides as there is further consolidation and layoffs it makes future mergers less likely to have anti trust action.
Who in the heck is spending $3,000 a month on rent?
Sensible well off Aussies.
Sorry, I know you guys are well into your crash already. Over here we are still totally off our heads - it's still different here. I pay well over twice that in rent and it is money well spent. I have four kids and I have no intention of living poorly despite being well off just because I live in a demented market.
If you have a high income it makes sense to pay a lot of rent. The alternatives are to live in a crappy rented house or a crappy owned house. Then you die and your kids have what they learned from you to help them decide how to live their lives before they die....
ArtimusMaxtor
2011 Oct 1, 8:58pm
Some of the responses I see being written are almost delusional. If you see things from my perspective. Understand if you don't owe anyone and own everything you have. You sit and watch people blindly talking about bubbles and all the other stuff the people you OWE so much to. Who actually own you in many ways. Including credit and your little jobbies your so afraid of losing. They throw you little things like bubbles for you to help them out with. So they can get their own brand of slavery up and running again. Yes massah we can talk about bubbles for you. See it. It really is hysterical. Whats even more funny is you can't survive without the people you OWE so much to. Your admitting to it. Its a the kind of degradation I really can't bear seeing another man going through. So I write.
Even the Indians living on the plains of America are pissing in their pants laughing at you because you don't have the balls to make it on your own. They won't do it of course because they have to much pride in being a man.
So go get a jobbie and sit their and shuffle your feet before your new master with your little job application. Pretend like you don't squat when they tell you to. Hey lets pretend ole Fred over there squats for a couple of weeks. Dosen't work. You'll squat for that little credit you get.
I love reading all the comments from obvious bubble buyers trying to justify paying 800k for a shitbox in the RBA. Protip, it doesn't matter if your equity stays; you were dumb enough to pay beluga caviar prices for fish bait and you have to look at it every day and look at your payments every month. nice
ArtimusMaxtor
2011 Oct 2, 1:43am
I gave attention to the seven hundred or so. . Objectors of Wall street. Look your never going to stop a good con game or con artist. Con artists love it when you show up no matter when and for whatever reason. They like to find every way on the green earth to keep you in their game. It's hypnotic, charasmatic, part sexual-a lot sexual and fascination. Also your FEAR.
It's just pointless going back to the people that conned you. Bilked your labor with credit. Made your own goods worthless. It's just not to smart to look to the people who took you in the first place for any kind of justice There is no quorum. No gathering. Unless its a gathering away from the people who conned you in the first place. Your own family is good really good. Your own people are good as long as they are not heading in the wrong direction as they tend to. Your immediate household will always stick with you. If you have the say so of course. No point looking to other people. Or what they do because more than likely you will get sucked right back into the confidence game the credit dealers run so well.
This thread and its responses in many ways confirms what I believe, which is to answer the question is the bubble mentality STILL a significant factor today in regards to home buying? Absolutely. There's still an awful lot of folks who sound like they're sold on the justification behind today's still-high prices.
I don't say this as someone who can't afford to buy here. I could if I wanted to. But it simply amazes me that even though my wife and I make an income that probably puts us into the upper 10-15% earning bracket that buying a home would mean fronting a huge down payment and use an awful lot of money per month to pay for the mortgage.
In my opinion people- especially those in the Bay Area- are somewhat sheltered from reality when it comes to prices. 500k has become the "New normal" for a starter home. Ridiculous given that in 2003-2004 I could've bought a house in my neighborhood for 350k and by 2006 the same houses were 600k and now maybe 550k. The local economy and job market didn't drastically change nor did wages go up if at all in certainly not since the recession. So people can talk all day long about location, weather, jobs, and so on but the math still doesn't add up period.
So yeah- its still bubblelicious here. For sure.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Oct 2, 3:43am
ts still bubblelicious here. For sure.
No it's not.
You must not be from these parts, or you'd know that the Cool and Hip Bay Area has been more expensive than Fly Over Land for a very long time. Decades. Lotsa decades.
As my fellow Cool-Aid Drinkers have pointed out in this thread, the prices here represent what they consider the fair value propositions for what they pay. They are the buyers, borrowers, and renters and what they pay is what they are willing to pay for what they get and so there is not no bubble here, from their perspective.
It would be bubblelicious if their reasoning on the value proposition was mainly about the appreciation and all the equity buildup they expect to get. Those are bubble attitudes, we heard them a lot up till about 2006, they have been purged from the system and we did not read them on this thread. Now, it is about what they perceive as the value of what they get for what they pay and that is market pricing, not a bubble.
Sorry if you don't agree with their valuation of their value proposition, a lot of people (including a lot of home-grown locals like most of my childhood friends) don't agree with it and they leave the Cool and Hip Bay Area. Maybe you should, too.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 2, 12:43pm
So people can talk all day long about location, weather, jobs, and so on but the math still doesn't add up period.
"Figures don't lie, but liars do figure."
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Oct 2, 1:52pm
They are not liars.
Your math doesn't add up period, but theirs does.
Because they're willing to pay that much for the location, weather, jobs and so on. They've said so right here on this thread.
Since they are not crowing about appreciation nowadays, The Bubble has burst, the recession has Flushed That Toilet.
Now it's Just All About how much The Cool and Hip Bay Area Lifestyle is worth to the people who are willing to pay for it.
For them, it's worth a lot. For you, it's not. Nothing wrong with that, different people have different values. Doesn't make them liars.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 2, 4:20pm
They are not liars.
Your math doesn't add up period, but theirs does.
When was math a subjective concept computed individually different by each person's view?
Math is a objective concept. It is what it is. I'm sorry that the housing market is not going to go up; arguing it will do nothing. Accept things as they are.
Because they're willing to pay that much for the location, weather, jobs and so on. They've said so right here on this thread.
No. They are not willing to "pay" - they are willing to PAY ON CREDIT with a huge mortgage that will keep them a slave for many years.
Nobody is really "paying" for these prices; they are simply being enslaved into debt by these prices.
The Bubble has burst, the recession has Flushed That Toilet.
The bubble has never burst completely. Fact.
This never was a recession. It was a beginning depression that has yet to make it's full mark. Fact.
Now it's Just All About how much The Cool and Hip Bay Area Lifestyle is worth to the people who are willing to pay for it.
This is they exact same disease mentality which created The Great Depression and they exact same disease mentality which is creating problems we have today which point towards the same results as The Great Depression.
Undeserved & irresponsible lifestyle is only worthy to the people who are willing to enslave themselves by delusion credit borrowing and putting their lives into enormous debt slavery.
This type of life is a peasant's life. Doesn't matter how many ways you try to twist it. Yuppies are the phony rich and are in reality pitiable peasants from their own making.
For them, it's worth a lot. For you, it's not.
I guess some people were just born to be peasants. And others, their masters.
Nothing wrong with that, different people have different values
I can careless if someone has "values" of being a peasant by their own making. It's their life and they deserve the freedom to live in slavery if they choose too.
What I DO have a problem with is not willing to face the consequences that these unwise "values" come with.
First these idiots are irresponsible with their lifestyle and then they further want to be irresponsible for the consequences of their lifestyle. Even taking it further, they then play the victim card when faced with the consequences of their idiocy and demand to be further compensated and rewarded for this "trauma".
Doesn't make them liars.
It sure does and to think otherwise is a testament that you have bought into the idiocy of these morons.
They are liars clearly because they are purchasing real estate & assets on over-leveraged credit beyond practical mathematical proportion to their personal income and down payment.
This allows people to pretend to themselves and others that they are financially prosperous.
It IS all one big lie and always has been. It needs to be said like it is and called as it is.
But unfortunately in a world full of lies, that isn't accepted.
And for the last reason, they are liars because after the house of cards collapse, they proceed to believe they have been poor victims, and that they were entitled to their over-leveraged lifestyles. Thus they made no mistake and they are the victims who need to be compensated. They than further, go into denial about the prices and think they can "wait it out" - this is very common amongst the majority of investors and it is a big mistake because instead of cutting their losses they try to fight it.
The end result: They get slaughtered instead of whipped.
That's exactly what will happen with real estate, the stock market, 401K and the economy.
Going into a moronic verse of "No, you are wrong" back and forth will do no good.
Open your eyes, wake up, accept reality, face the consequences and then move on to a better a life by learning from your past mistakes.
But I digress... The majority of the sheep will rather die than do this. Suicides will be common place. Men abandoning their families will common place. Prostitution will be common place. All this happened in the great depression.
Time to get off the kool-aid.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 2, 4:32pm
Apple was Cool and Hip, before, too. When Jobs was the creative force behind the Mac. Then the Army of Sycophants came along to join the ride, personified in the person of John Sculley. What could go wrong? They were so much smarter than everyone else, because they were in Silicon Valley, they had fancy degrees from fancy schools, and they were beknighted by the personnel department at APPL. Right?
It took one smart person, a local prodigal son of Santa Clara County, one without any fancy degrees from any fancy schools, it rescue the company from itself with his vision for products and services. For whatever reason, the Army of oh-so-smart folks with fancy degrees from fancy schools nearly drove the company into the ground before his return.
Apple is all about the intelligence,vision and tenacity of Steve Jobs. It is not about the fancy degrees from fancy schools of the fancy people.
I agree with this. 1+
Ivy leaguers are usually morons disguising themselves as "geniuses" F*** them.
Steve Jobs went to community college as a "drop-in" - then dropped out when he had no more money for tuition. Yet... He accomplished way more than any of these clueless drone entitled idiots who can't think for themselves and need an idiot in front of a classroom to fill information into their dead brain instead of being able to dissect information themselves.
Formal education is useless. Education will be the next bubble to collapse. VERY similar to the housing bubble.
tatupu70
2011 Oct 2, 9:27pm
The bubble has never burst completely. Fact.
This never was a recession. It was a beginning depression that has yet to make it's full mark. Fact.
I think you need a referesher on the definition of FACT. Those statements may or may not turn out to be true, but they are OPINIONS, not FACTS.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 2, 10:07pm
I think you need a referesher on the definition of FACT. Those statements may or may not turn out to be true, but they are OPINIONS, not FACTS.
Then prove it wrong if you are so butt hurt about it.
Simply saying I'm wrong without giving your reasoning is pointless.
tatupu70
2011 Oct 2, 10:39pm
Then prove it wrong if you are so butt hurt about it.
Simply saying I'm wrong without giving your reasoning is pointless.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 2, 11:01pm
Not what I'm asking.
The bubble has never burst completely. Fact.
This never was a recession. It was a beginning depression that has yet to make it's full mark. Fact.
Prove this statement wrong - that you highlighted and claimed to be an opinion. Otherwise, anymore commentary from you will be useless and unneeded.
tatupu70
2011 Oct 3, 12:17am
Prove this statement wrong - that you highlighted and claimed to be an opinion. Otherwise, anymore commentary from you will be useless and unneeded.
Really? You made a prediction about the future and don't see how that isn't a fact? A prediction can NEVER be a fact.
Steve Jobs went to community college as a "drop-in" - then dropped out when he had no more money for tuition. Yet... He accomplished way more than any of these clueless drone entitled idiots who can't think for themselves and need an idiot in front of a classroom to fill information into their dead brain instead of being able to dissect information themselves.
Yep.. from Andrew Carnegie to Sam Walton to Larry Ellison and many others and many to come tomorrow.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 3, 12:39pm
You are the one claiming your opinions are "fact"
Nope. Your the one that has a problem that my statement is just a opinion. Therefore - you are the one that should first give a reasoning why it's wrong.
Demanding that someone else prove them false is intellectually lazy.
Copying somebody else's statements are "intellectually lazy". Like the statement below you copied....
Otherwise any more commentary from you will be useless and unneeded.
Moving on...
Prove your statement is true.
No. That's not how it works. You had a problem that my statement was wrong. Therefore, YOU prove my statement is wrong. Than I will proceed.
Otherwise I'm not interested in entertaining anymore of your pointless hissy fits. I gave my take and opinion on this topic. If you don't like it, too bad.
You made a prediction about the future and don't see how that isn't a fact? A prediction can NEVER be a fact.
None of this is "prediction" - I made a analysis based on the current situation. The current situation and many factual problems point towards a worsening of conditions in the economy.
Don't try to twist what I said. Troll someone else.
bmwman91
2011 Oct 3, 2:50pm
MCM, you can't make a statement of personal opinion and then claim that it is "fact until proven otherwise." That isn't how it works. Just as someone that makes a claim that you are incorrect needs to provide backing, you need to provide a factual basis for a claim if you wish to demonstrate it as fact. I could claim that god exists, and nobody can provide measurable evidence to the contrary, but that still doesn't make my claim a fact. This isn't high school debate club: rendering an opponent's argument null might win the debate, but you could still be wrong.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 3, 6:51pm
MCM, you can't make a statement of personal opinion and then claim that it is "fact until proven otherwise." That isn't how it works. Just as someone that makes a claim that you are incorrect needs to provide backing, you need to provide a factual basis for a claim if you wish to demonstrate it as fact. I could claim that god exists, and nobody can provide measurable evidence to the contrary, but that still doesn't make my claim a fact. This isn't high school debate club: rendering an opponent's argument null might win the debate, but you could still be wrong.
blah blah blah... Go find someone else who will entertain this...
It makes no sense and is just incoherent nonsense eating space.
Prove the what I said that you claim is not factual. Otherwise go away. Simply pointing your finger that someone is wrong without showing how is not a intelligent debate on your part.
That's not how it works. Good Bye, Sir.
tatupu70
2011 Oct 3, 10:06pm
OK. Now I get it.
The Cubs will win the World Series next year. FACT.
That's a factual statement--right MCM?
If not, prove that they won't.
Steve Jobs went to community college as a "drop-in" - then dropped out when he had no more money for tuition. Yet... He accomplished way more than any of these clueless drone entitled idiots who can't think for themselves and need an idiot in front of a classroom to fill information into their dead brain instead of being able to dissect information themselves.
Formal education is useless. Education will be the next bubble to collapse. VERY similar to the housing bubble.
O this again...
Steve Jobs worked for Nolan Bushnell at Atari. Nolan DID go to college and did graduate. If it wasn't for him Steven wouldn't have been exposed to computers nearly as much. In 1976 they developed a system that looked nice but they didn't have the funds so Nolan sold it to Warner (28-32 million). Steve wanted to get into computers but the market wasn't there so he left (supposedly he made the game Breakout).
Fast forward to around 1983. A video game crash happened and gradually in some areas there was a shift to computers. Coleco tried Adam but that was a disaster. So apple tried a few systems...well here's the problem with claiming that Steven did this on his own...he didn't.
Most of Windows and Mac OS for that matter was greatly inspired but Xerox Parc's Rooms system. Did Steve Jobs ever visit the place? Yup...
http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/Apple_Computers.htm
http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
"Steve Jobs had co-founded Apple Computer in 1976. The first popular personal computer, the Apple 2, was a hit - and made Steve Jobs one of the biggest names of a brand-new industry. At the height of Apple's early success in December 1979, Jobs, then all of 24, had a privileged invitation to visit Xerox Parc.
Steve Jobs
And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day.
It was a turning-point. Jobs decided that this was the way forward for Apple."
But wait that was the 80's...what about mac in say the 1990's...good question.
http://www.reghardware.com/2007/01/30/forgotten_tech_beos/
So Apple could have bought out BeOS..wait a second here..if the OS was fine why would they have to buy out anything? Unless their current line wasn't good.
MacOS is based on NeXT OpenStep..ok so since Jobs founded NeXT that means he made OpenStep...right? Nope..it was made with Sun Microsystems which was based on Solaris!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStep#OPENSTEP.2FMach
But apple made their own processors...right? Nope. They were dependent on the Motorola 68000 series of processors in the 80's (just like Atari and Amiga (which did much better in Europe). So what about the 90's? Well the PowerPC chip which was pretty much IBM and Motorola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerpc Mac OS technically is just a buyproduct of Linux now.
Linux also powers Android and Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook
Much of MacOS X's material can easily be created in linux
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ynJrYBvelg
Apple makes products that look good but it doesn't exactly break new ground on things. They are rarely the first to develop a new product.
Jobs hardly programmed, he didn't design any OS, he didn't design any product. He simply gave the OK if he liked it. That is not really showing talet that simply is showing that he is a boss.
When he went back to Apple in the late 90's, he prevented other companies from licensing products which is hypocritical given how much future products became dependent on linux. Do as I say, not as I do. He came into a company as it was on the ropes AND its major competitor was facing a anti trust lawsuit from the DoJ. Of course you are going to see a rebound in sales from that point!
I rather invest in apple stock than apple products.
I am not a fan of Bill Gates either as he is largely in the same boat. Tim Patterson made dos..Gates wasn't really a programmer and was actually born into a millionaire family with access to computers in the early 70's.
No formal education is not useless. Like it or not a bachelors degree is the defacto baseline standard. It is more efficient to confirm a degree than it is with experience because not everyone passes a battery test. Taking experience on as blind faith (that is without a form of a test) is a very bad policy. Employers do not teach people skills that have a value somewhere else because that becomes contradictory to them being employed at that organization to begin with. If there is a bubble in education I would argue that it is with the for profit organizations like Apollo, University of Phoenix DeVry.
"from Andrew Carnegie to Sam Walton to Larry Ellison and many others and many to come tomorrow."
Sam Walton graduated with a degree in economics at University of Missouri. Larry Ellison left school not because he wanted to drop out but because his adoptive mother just died and had to move in with a friend. Andrew Carnegie had access to 400 books (not even my kindle has that many) from Colonel Anderson
http://www.clpgh.org/exhibit/anderson.html
"John Phipps, James R. Wilson, Thomas N. Miller, William Cowley--members of our circle--shared with me the invaluable privilege of the use of Colonel Anderson's library. Books which it would have been impossible for me to obtain elsewhere were, by his wise generosity, placed within my reach; and to him I owe a taste for literature which I would not exchange for all the millions that were ever amassed by man. Life would be quite intolerable without it. Nothing contributed so much to keep my companions and myself clear of low fellowship and bad habits as the beneficence of the good Colonel. Later, when fortune smiled upon me, one of my first duties was the erection of a monument to my benefactor. It stands in front of the Hall and Library in Diamond Square, which I presented to Allegheny, and bears this inscription:"
So he technically was dependent on someone else for his education. So it was around 1845ish when he was a kid so this was directly responsible for his education.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 3, 11:32pm
@mdovell
when did I ever say education is useless? Learn to read and analyze an argument carefully.
I said FORMAL "education" is useless.
What the majority of sheeple believe is that the public school systems and universities educate you.
They don't.
why are you boasting to me that Andrew Carnegie owned over 400 books? You are implying that you think that I think books and reading along with studying is useless.
That is false. I never said that nor have I ever said that. In fact, I own over 300 books myself. Nonfiction - For studying. I love going to barnes & noble and the library.
You also imply that you believe successful individuals have had some lucky circumstantial events which randomly determined their success. This what the majority of people believe. They believe people become successfully randomly, out of luck and for no reason at all but just circumstantial.
But whatever. You are free to believe what you want.
And your comments about Apple - I will have to agree on. I'm not a fanboy nor do I think Steve Jobs built the best computers.
I simply give him credit on his business savvy. How many MBA morons you think would be able to compete in business with him?
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 3, 11:36pm
OK. Now I get it.
The Cubs will win the World Series next year. FACT.
That's a factual statement--right MCM?
If not, prove that they won't.
Thank You.
You just proved that you couldn't back up your accusations of my statements being false.
So now you resort to trying to switching around the table of me proving your statements wrong. Pretty cheap escape.
Troll...
tatupu70
2011 Oct 4, 12:00am
You just proved that you couldn't back up your accusations of my statements being false.
Here's what I actually said:
Those statements may or may not turn out to be true
This is getting ridiculous. You are predicting the future. It's not a fact. It can't be proven incorrect. Because it is referring to the future.
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 4, 1:36am
This is getting ridiculous. You are predicting the future. It's not a fact. It can't be proven incorrect. Because it is referring to the future.
Let me know when you have something new to say.
"What the majority of sheeple believe is that the public school systems and universities educate you.
They don't."
Ok then so what would you say does that an employer can actually verify? How are you defining what education actually is? If we like it or not trends clearly illustrate on average that those with a higher education make more in income. If there was no correlation then a high school drop out on average would make as much as someone with a ph.d and that simply is not the case. If this was 100 years ago industries had a interest in teaching employees/workers/people skills because efficiency was largely based on them. Now that is not the case.
If high school was just enough then employers would feel confident in asking for them as a standard. A fair percentage of the jobs I see advertised require a degree. Now you might argue that standardized tests might help since that can be considered an equalizer as a standard between schools that have different funding and quality of educators.
"why are you boasting to me that Andrew Carnegie owned over 400 books? You are implying that you think that I think books and reading along with studying is useless."
I was quoting someone else on the thread..I'm assuming you read all the posts within the thread. I was not replying to you.
"That is false. I never said that nor have I ever said that. In fact, I own over 300 books myself. Nonfiction - For studying. I love going to barnes & noble and the library."
If you notice I didn't quote you so what makes you think I did??
"You also imply that you believe successful individuals have had some lucky circumstantial events which randomly determined their success. This what the majority of people believe. They believe people become successfully randomly, out of luck and for no reason at all but just circumstantial."
No I'm not claiming it is luck but the argument that somehow people can drop out and things can be OK is a bit of a misnomer too. Correlation does not mean causality. Since you aren't actually defining what success means to you I have no metric by which to debate the semantics of it.
"I simply give him credit on his business savvy. How many MBA morons you think would be able to compete in business with him?"
I'm no fan of MBA's but it isn't exactly him that is running the ship. At least with Amazon arguments can be made with the kindle that it gives it access to their library. With apple the business model is odd. How many people honestly buy software these days given the quality that is out there? How many people really "NEED" to upgrade an OS? Computers and technology are great don't get me wrong but it is a highly deflationary market. The "Mac Tax" exists and people have found out how to put mac OS on other laptops and pc's. Apple products are designed well but the outright quality is questionable. Forcing proprietary policies on people is the exact same mannerisms that Microsoft created in the 1990's that caused people to hate it.
Misstrial
2011 Oct 4, 2:07am
To the OP:
You have to understand that an entire generation (Boomers) grew up and lived most of their adult lives under a real estate scenario where RE prices went up, sometimes spectacularly.
Yes there were a few years of backwardation (early eighties and mid-nineties) but generally prices went skyward, especially after the dot com bust and Boomers determined to use their home values as an alternative to savings to fund their retirement accounts.
This is a generation of 76 million, of which only 10 percent has passed away.
Old habits die hard and the fact that RE going up is primarily what this generation experienced and benefited from is the main reason why the bubble mentality, imo, will be with us for at least another 10 years.
"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."
~Misstrial
zzyzzx
2011 Oct 4, 2:10am
On oahu I noticed a trend of adult kids(with kids) moving in with parents and the kids would pay for add on cost 2-300,000 and would create their home unit adding onto parents small house, pretty big lot sizes ~10,000.
so they don't have a glut of McMansions that they could already use (instead of creating a crappy add-on)?
Robber Baron Elite Scum
2011 Oct 4, 2:22am
just that you don't seem to understand the difference between opinion and fact.
Either way fault finding for no purpose is unintelligent.
Well, at least you FINALLY admit that you were wrong and just giving an opinion. Congratulations.
Taking unrelated statements out of their context is for individuals looking to win arguments they are afraid they will lose.
Your writings here prove this to be incorrect in the strongest possible way.
Okay. Show HOW it is incorrect. Prove it. Give direct examples. Otherwise like I said johnny: take a hike!
@mdovell
I will admit that you have some good points and good reasoning. Although I may not believe 100% with everything you say; I do think you have intelligent points. Although I believe some of them are incomplete in their perspective to see the whole picture. But nonetheless, you do bring good points.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Oct 4, 7:21am
MCM Singer,
Some Cool, Hip and Beautiful People of The Bay Area have posted here on this thread their reasons why they overpay (based on your math) on housing. Appreciation was not one of them. Job market, Coolness, weather, Hipness, access to recreation, Beautifulness, "schools", whatever. According to their math, they are getting their money's worth for what they are paying.
Their math is not based on Bubblicious Asset Value Appreciation BubbleThink, it is based on the value they place on different aspects Personal Consumption. Since it is their Personal Consumption, it is their personal choice. That is their math, you can disagree with it (maybe you can tell by reading between the lines of my posts, maybe I disagree with it, too); but it does not make them liars. It just make them have a different type of idea of values than some of The Rest of Us have.
Going off the deep end ranting and name calling etc on here are going to make people think that you are the one with the problem.
Regarding the recession Flushing the Toilet on The Hipsters' expectations of appreciation, you don't have to rant, etc. about it. So far, in the Bay Area at least, it has been a recession, up till now, and it has Flushed That Toilet. I think I probably agree with you that what till now has been a recession is likely to unfold as something that looks like a full blown depression, but till now, just a recession, a nasty recession, but enough of one where we don't hear the Hipsters crow about their housing appreciation. Instead nowadays its all about what they're willing to pay (yes, pay interest perhaps in many cases) for Their personal preferences.
Chill out dude.
You'll never win any arguments with that ranting, even if you win in your own mind and even by logic, you'll still lose with that ranting.
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So we're into year 4 of a nasty recession. Foreclosures are still at an all-time high. New homes, existing homes, and so on are all lagging in sales. We see the stories day in, day out. Everyone at this point acknowledges that the recession was largely created by an out of control housing bubble.
Yet at the end of the day I can't help but think that after all this that the bubble mentality is still very much alive and kickin'. This is ever so apparent around here in the Bay Area. There are many people- even some on this site it appears- that think that 500k+ for a starter home sound swell. I know many who paid a lot more then that. Investors are "snappin' up" bottom-feeder houses, paying prices for them that are still in many cases still much higher than they were before the boom. Again- around here in the Bay Area any party or gathering you'll attend will likely have a common topic- of housing, of how and where to live and so on.
Why is this mentality so hard to kick? Why do people hold on so desperately and dearly to the idea of housing? Why does rationality seem to fly out the window when it comes to houses?
#housing