patrick.net

You forgot Spain... 21% unemployment.

And what is Spain doing right now? Imposing austerity of course.

"Other countries have take austerity measures and guess what? They are doing better than we are. Germany and Britain comes to mind, as well as Iceland and others."

Iceland had a NEGATIVE GDP last quarter:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/iceland/gdp-growth

True. And much of the Spanish overconstruction was due to their variant of "all these overpriced condos and villas will be brought by rich Britons as vacation homes." Just like every Miami Realwhore thinks that South Americans are eventually going to buy up all the surplus Condos and SFHs or every West Coast realtor thinks about South or East Asians.

After WW2, we had a brief recession because people were worried we'd return to the Great Depression, where would the demand come from?

We insisted on rising wages, on the job training (not "you're on your own training on your own dime and on your own time" like today) for all, and a loose safety net. Since just before the fall of the Soviet Union, capitalists "Clawed Back" old assumptions about laissez-faire, employment-at-will, etc. and since then the middle class has been on the defensive, and steadily giving up ground.

Getting a degree or certificate in the old days showed you had gumption; today it's become a given and taken for granted by employers. The costs of education and training has increased, but the work hours haven't decreased and the wages haven't increased. The two-income family is also taken for granted, problem is much of the extra money goes to child care, a second vehicle, and convenience costs.

Another step in fixing the economy is to completely re-form primary education, so not everybody is absolutely forced to go to college. You can always go to school later if your mechanics training leads you to wonder about physics, Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance style.

We are in a demand crisis, not a supply one. Supply side economics is of no help in this situation.

Companies won't add jobs until their sales growth increases. Revenue increases by cost cutting (layoffs) is not sales growth.

thunderlips11 says

The two-income family is also taken for granted, problem is much of the extra money goes to child care, a second vehicle, and convenience costs.

actually every last dollar of that second income is going into either the mortgage or the rent.

I find it really funny that basically everyone has a blind spot about land values. I had it too, for the first 30-odd years, I didn't understand the crucial nature of land in our economy.

I sensed it, living in high-rent LA on my own in the late 80s, and in Tokyo in the 90s, and coming back to a total nuthouse here in Silicon valley in 2000, but I did not have the analytical understanding to see what made land different from other goods.

Now I do, LOL

Troy says

actually every last dollar of that second income is going into either the mortgage or the rent.

Good point, no doubt whatever is left of that second income gets poured into housing expenses.

Over the long term, it makes one-income households very difficult to operate on typical wages. Not just "traditional" dad-working mom-at-home families, but single parents and even singles, period.

thunderlips11 says

We are in a demand crisis, not a supply one

we are in a "we-are-fucked" crisis.

Perot was right in 1992. Cheap labor from Mexico and China is pulling $300B/yr out of our paycheck economy.

Paying for imported oil is pulling another $300B or so out, never to come back as wages, just like our trade imbalance.

And on top of that, elsewhere on the internet I recently calculated that there's roughly $300B of ground rent being pulled from the renting public's pockets.

Then there's the extra $1T in deficit spending that is allegedly keeping everything from going to hell again.

We need $3000 gold, but that will also create $300 oil.

My sig says it all

thunderlips11 says

Over the long term, it makes one-income households very difficult to operate on typical wages.

And two-income household stuck in the http://motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/two-income-trap

Banks only used to lend on the man's income. IIRC they changed that in the early 1970s. They should go back to that (well, the highest income to be fair).

Anyone want a good laugh? Read the Republican Plan for "Job Creators." What does it include? Some highlights:

1. Lower taxes

2. Eliminate burdensome regulations (it does not name a single such regulation)

3. More free trade agreements

4. More H1-B Visas (no seriously, this is really in the plan).

http://majorityleader.gov/Jobs/HRP_JOBS.pdf

The proposal is 10 pages, but it is full of pictures and large text, so it is really no more than 3 pages.

HousingWatcher says

1. Lower taxes

2. Eliminate burdensome regulations (it does not name a single such regulation)

3. More free trade agreements

4. More H1-B Visas (no seriously, this is really in the plan).

Let's see. Yep, looks like typical Monetarist/Fugitive Traitor Free Trader crap to me.

Lowest taxes since WW2 already.

Burdensome regs like the Glass-Steagal act? That didn't work out too well.

We have more free trade agreements with more countries than anytime in US History, but our net trade is almost $1T/year to the red.

H1-B visas are great though, they teach Yuppies not to be too quick about accusing blue collar workers of xenophobia, when they realize the same process that kept their lawncare costs down applies to their own fields of endeavor as well. Unfortunately, Schadenfruede doesn't fix the problem.

Troy says

actually every last dollar of that second income is going into either the mortgage or the rent

Troy, sounds like you were not a parent in a two-income trap situation, or you would know that childcare is a massive portion of the expenses.

well, every dollar after necessary work expenses like commuting costs and child-care . . .

Troy says

necessary work expenses like commuting costs

I agree that childcare is a work related expense.

But I think that a very large portion of commuting cost, maybe all of it, is actually a housing-related cost.

thunderlips11 says

H1-B visas are great though, they teach Yuppies not to be too quick about accusing blue collar workers of xenophobia, when they realize the same process that kept their lawncare costs down applies to their own fields of endeavor as well.

Haw!

thunderlips11 says

Unfortunately, Schadenfruede doesn’t fix the problem.

Sigh... so much for having a laugh at those damn yuppies' expense. And here I thought I was double-tasking...

Chris, listen to me, this is an intervention. You really need to stop watching Fox News and talk radio. Get out of the right wing echo chamber.

"Bush tried to bail them out and the public told him to go to hell. Obama than came out and sold us the bail outs at the top of his approval rating. I was there for the speech, which was followed by the very quick bail outs."

You might think I enjoy making you lok like an idiot, but I do not.

WASHINGTON — After the House reversed course and gave final approval to the $700 billion economic bailout package, President Bush quickly signed it into law on Friday, authorizing the Treasury to undertake what could become the most expensive government intervention in history.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/business/economy/04bailout.html

How are we supposed to debtate conservatives liek Chris when ther recollection of history does not come close to reality? If you can't even agree on which president enacted the bail outs, it is impossible to have a meaningful debate.

Also

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/607187/unemployment_now_worse_than_during_great_depression

Unemployment Now Worse than During Great Depression

HousingWatcher says

it is impossible to have a meaningful debate.

people like ChrisLA aren't here to debate, they're here to spout their bullshit.

Troy says

HousingWatcher says

it is impossible to have a meaningful debate.

people like ChrisLA aren’t here to debate, they’re here to spout their bullshit.

I did not insult you, why do you have to insult me for? What gives man. So we disagree on something, no need to get personal.

HousingWatcher says

WASHINGTON — After the House reversed course and gave final approval to the $700 billion economic bailout package, President Bush quickly signed it into law on Friday, authorizing the Treasury to undertake what could become the most expensive government intervention in history.

Those bail outs were not happening without public approval, the one who sold them to the public was Obama. Bush did try, I remember very well him trying to sell it. And appropriately was told to roll over and die. Public was not going to go along with this cronyism.

Then Obama was elected, and made a great speech about how he feels our pain but we need to do this to save our nation, and went through with bailouts anyway. I was there for that speech I remember how these bail outs happened.

How do you think the whole Tea Party started, its people who are massively ticked off at both parties for the bail outs. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

"Those bail outs were not happening without public approval, the one who sold them to the public was Obama. Bush did try, I remember very well him trying to sell it."

Complete nonsense. Paulson and Bernanke were the main ones selling the bail outs. Paulson even went as far as to get on his knees and beg Pelosi to pass the bill.

"So we disagree on something, no need to get personal."

You have the right to your own opinion, not your own facts.

"H1-B visas are great though, they teach Yuppies not to be too quick about accusing blue collar workers of xenophobia, when they realize the same process that kept their lawncare costs down applies to their own fields of endeavor as well."

True. But I think the H1-B Visa is becoming obsolete, as more companies offshore work and instead use the L-1 Visa, which has no cap or prevailing wage requirement.

HousingWatcher says

WASHINGTON — After the House reversed course and gave final approval to the $700 billion economic bailout package, President Bush quickly signed it into law on Friday, authorizing the Treasury to undertake what could become the most expensive government intervention in history.

Let me clear this up...

0,700,000,000,000 What Bush gave in that Bail out.
3,800,000,000,000 What has been paid to date.

3,100,000,000,000 Is what Obama has given in one form of stimulation bail out or other.

HousingWatcher says

Complete nonsense. Paulson and Bernanke were the main ones selling the bail outs. Paulson even went as far as to get on his knees and beg Pelosi to pass the bill.

http://factreal.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/bailoutsummarylist4-13-2009.pdf

http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/bailouttracker/

both parties were responsible. Republicans in Congress were going to get executed due to public outrage if Obama did not sell the necessity of the bail outs. And he sure did it.

ChrisLA says

if Obama did not sell the necessity of the bail outs. And he sure did it.

Obama was elected a month after the bailouts were signed into law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

You do understand this point of reality, right?

state says

Tenouncetrout says

Let me clear this up…
0,700,000,000,000 What Bush gave in that Bail out.

3,800,000,000,000 What has been paid to date.
3,100,000,000,000 Is what Obama has given in one form of stimulation bail out or other.

lmao, “let me just throw up some numbers without any source or explanation, also let me start one with a zero because I need everything to line up for my OCD”

If you can't be more creative with snappy comebacks than that, then quit being a Nudzh.

Here's bailout money hard at work.