patrick.net

Once again this sort of thread pops up, that makes me think about EV. Maybe take an old Geo Metro LSI convertible, strip out all the ICE stuff, and put in an EV conversion kit. The Metro LSI looks like a fun little toy car and with a high-torque electric motor ought to accelerate like a rocket. Hmmm..... needs a roll bar though.

Battery storage space and weight might be an issue with such a small car, particularly for lead-acid batteries.

Just curious, do you know if Ni-H, and Ni-metal-H batteries are available for such applications? They should be lighter than lead-acid. And even though they would be heavier than Li batteries, they would probably be cheaper. Also, as far as I understand, metal-hydride batteries are much more robust than Li batteries and last FAR longer.

Nissan is releasing a battery that will last a whole weekend of driving on a charge.

We've been stroking the subsidy lobby, glad handing the speculators and imposing oppressive taxes and burdensome expenses on those that can lest afford it. While the Peak Oil Greenie Bastards are just taking the money laughing all the way to the bank.

Those little slant eyed fuckers(that every one loves to bitch for succeeding so well), are just doing it.
No political grand standing, no pipe dreams and smoke and mirrors, not even stealing designs from us. That's how pathetic we've gotten.

@Cook County resident

"Despite high gas prices, gas mileage still isn’t fashionable."

LoL! Well, perhaps so...but I don't have much sympathy for someone complaining about high gasoline prices, who drives a vehicle getting 14mpg (especially if they generally are the only one in the vehicle).

>You have to be careful when comparing quoted MPGs from the 80’s to now. It’s apples to oranges because the way the automakers were allowed to measure them has changed substantially.

Curious how they measure it now compared to then...thanks in advance.

Nobody else able to share stats about their gas cost/usage?

@terri, I was thinking of cheap lead batteries for running around town not long range. A fun go-cart that's street legal if you will. 40-60 miles would be fine as long as when I twisted it's tail it would JUMP.

American in Japan says

>You have to be careful when comparing quoted MPGs from the 80’s to now. It’s apples to oranges because the way the automakers were allowed to measure them has changed substantially.
Curious how they measure it now compared to then…thanks in advance.

Fueleconomy.gov says:

EPA has changed the way it estimates MPG.

Starting in model year 2008, estimates reflect the effects of

* Faster speeds & acceleration
* Air conditioner use
* Colder outside temperatures

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

The website also has comparisons for vehicles going back to 1985:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

Even with the corrected numbers, about half of the best EPA gas mileage cars are pre-Y2K:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp

Vicente says

I was thinking of cheap lead batteries for running around town not long range. A fun go-cart that’s street legal if you will. 40-60 miles would be fine as long as when I twisted it’s tail it would JUMP.

As far as I understand, those electric motors are pretty torquey, so you'd probably be in fine shape with your weekend runabout. That said, and more to the point of the post, how about a home-built hybrid? Last time I checked there were no ready-made retrofit kits out there so it would be a total DIY.

Everyone,

PLEASE do not let headlines such as

How to Build a 100 Mile-Per-Gallon Car ... Right Now - Popular Mechanics

lull anyone into a false sense that the problem of automotive energy consumption is SOLVED. It is not. If the fleet average in 2011 was 100 MPG then we would have made great strides. But at the rate progress is taking place it won't even be 100 MPG in 2020. Maybe in 2040 if we are lucky.

2040 IS TOO LATE.

We need to change what cars we manufacture and how we drive NOW. Please do not be complacent. If you buy a new car in 2011 and it is not already getting 50 MPG you are NOT DOING YOUR PART.

Do not think that "the problem will be solved in the future". Do not wait until gas is $10/gallon or $20/gallon. Make the change NOW.

I'm sorry for screaming but the public in the USA is getting lulled into false complacency. Do it NOW.

I think this week on NOVA (PBS TV program) there was another one of those pie-in-the-sky technology-will-save-us futuristic car programs. The problem is that these futuristic cars are NOT in mass production now, and in any case many of them are completely unpractical.

Right now the only cars worth buying on the US market are

Toyota Prius
VW Jetta TDI (clean diesel)
Audi A3 TDI (also clean diesel)
MAYBE a Nissan Leaf
MAYBE Ford Fusion Hybrid
Forget about the idiotic Tesla Roadster
Forget about the 37MPG (really!!) stupid-as-only-GM-can-be Chevy Volt

Anything else and you are not doing enough. Call me whatever you want, but this is the truth. And yes, your grandchildren will thank me.

Vicente says

http://www.ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/index.htm

Neat gadget. How thick is the cable to your OBDII connector, and how do you route the cable to it through your car? Or is this a wireless+dongle kind of setup?
In my car the OBDII connector is near the pedals. not a nice place to route a cable from.

The reason I ask about thickness is that the cables on OBDII diagnostic tools are seriously fat.

Maybe I should just RTFM.

Update: There is a photo under the "buy" link on the web site. Cable is not too terrible.

I also see that a google search of "ODBII trip computer" finds a number of manufacturers. I think soon we can get these for $30-40.

terriDeaner says

C’mon guys… the technology for vastly improved mileage and low emissions vehicles has been around for AGES!

As well as the notion of carpooling, apparently…

Obligatory:

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Cars don’t need half the horsepower that is considered standard these days.

Exactly what I was trying to say! Engine sizes are at least 50% more than what they should be. It's as if every new car is designed to maximize opportunities for speeding tickets.

justme says

Neat gadget. How thick is the cable to your OBDII connector, and how do you route the cable to it through your car? Or is this a wireless+dongle kind of setup?

In my car the OBDII connector is near the pedals. not a nice place to route a cable from.
The reason I ask about thickness is that the cables on OBDII diagnostic tools are seriously fat.

Actually it's not terribly thick. I didn't measure it. The connector is right-angle. It routes for me cleanly to the left behind a panel, and I have the gauge on the left side of dash near my driver-side mirror. I'll go take a picture. For ~$60 it's the best money I've spent on widgetry in a while. Oh yeah it will also read off the error codes too, so I no no longer need my separate code reader. It will display multiple pages of data either by manual scroll or timed. You can customize what you want shown (not enough space for all sensors) and I'm still tinkering with my output setup need to put in O2 sensors and take off "service distance" and other stuff I don't care about seeing.

Minor gripe, there is a rebate but they make you work for it. You have to hook up your UltraGauge and write down all the engine-sensor codes it finds which in my car is 34 of them. During the rebate form entry you have to tick off checkboxes "A1 B3 C0...." etc. They want to find out what sensors are in EVERY car for their support list and this is their way of gathering them by crowd-sourcing. The data in their support table for 1997 Camry LE 2.2L is from my car :D

Here it's hard to tell but just above the accelerator linkage is the grey nub of the right-angle ODBII connector. The wire exits to the right is a darker black almost invisible here, and I go up and hook it over something under the dash then back over to the left. The ODBII connector on this car by the way has a bracket holding it which you can unscrew and remount so it's flat which would make it more unobtrusive but I didn't feel the need to do that, it's low-profile enough for me already.

And here's how I brought the wire up, cheesy but it works fine. I didn't take off any panels, just hooked it behind panel edges and twist-tied the excess and tucked that away. Other people find blank spots in their dash and install it permanently.

It motivated me to experiment a little. Yesterday I emptied all the excess items out of my car which was a lot more weight than I thought. Toolkit, oil can, battery pack, etc. Even took out the spare and the jack. I have a full-sized spare which is heavier than the standard donut. For local driving I have AAA and brand new Michelins so not worried about it. For trips I'd put the spare and tools back obviously. Curious to see if weight reduction makes any diff I can measure.

Unfortunately the 1997 Camry LE is not the most featureful of cars. It uses MAP instead of MAF. So long-term MPG averages I get out of it aren't dead-on, can be 2-4 MPG off. But the instant figure is most useful tool for establishing the "trend" if you will of my driving style. The lack of a fuel tank sensor in this Camry means it doesn't know the actual state of the fuel tank, but as long as every time I fill it up I hold down the "up-arrow" key for some seconds to register the fill it can do a decent job of tracking things.

If you wanted good MPG, why did you buy a Camry?

zzyzzx says

If you wanted good MPG, why did you buy a Camry?

YOU try fitting a large child seat for a 3.5 year old in the back of a Metro or a Yaris.

We don't always get to choose purely for MPG. Fact is a mid-sized sedan is the family car we could agree on, and it's been exceedingly reliable. I compensate for it's moderate MPG by not driving it much and stretching it where I can. I bought this in 2003 and will run it out to 300K, it's a balance of money with minimum criteria and MPG. City driving is a lesser component for me than most since I live near work and most days bike there, so there's not as much pull for a hybrid and consequent "I don't know how to service that" complexity.

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Practical idea: America could up its gas mileage instantly by throwing away needless doors and trunk hoods and unused seats.

Really need more 2 door cars and less 4 door cars. Everything else being equal, the 2 door car would weight less.

Vicente says

YOU try fitting a large child seat for a 3.5 year old in the back of a Metro or a Yaris.

Won't it fit in the trunk?

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

AND anyone riding shotgun could stand while your driving and give them better visibility when shooting at on road and off road adversaries.

A careless missile launch could be.... bad... for your hapless sidekick.

Average distance traveled per year: 13,476 miles

From here: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

I’m at 55% of that figure now, projecting out to a full year puts me at 8,748 miles or 63%. So that's about 170 gallons of gas I have *not* burned by not driving everywhere.

Convince people to modify their lifestyle to reduce distance travelled per year by car by 30+% and voila you’ll have the instant effect of a rather difficult leap in MPG.

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

Toyota Yaris? Honda Fit? Still too big.

An image I come across the web, and this shit is actual car running on japanese roads.

American in Japan, I am sure you saw this car. Please tell me the name of this one.

seaside says

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

That would be about right for an average new car! My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I'm guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won't make such a car.

Checkout this 67 mpg (US) diesel with auto stop/start & regenerative braking that will be manufactured in Germany. It claims to be more fuel efficient than any compact currently on the road in Europe today. Did I mention it's made by Ford, and of course, won't be released in the US. Sigh...

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

There’s a lot of nice diesel automotive hardware in Europe. Drove a Fiat diesel for a week in Sicily last year and, wow, that car had pep. It was roomy, quiet and had incredible mileage for its size.
EBGuy says

But how did the wiper blades handle the blood of the infidels you mowed down with it? Did the cabin noise deadening technology dampen their screams enough for you to listen to your Mannheim Steamroller CD with a cheery smile on your face?

Vicente,

Thanks for photos and details of the "user experience". :)

I have since 1998 lived a less car-centric life than most. Not that I've given it up but I do drive less than average. I was curious what my gas-saving was over a longer timeframe. I plugged a few values into spreadsheet to look at some numbers over the last 8 years that I've owned this car. Well over 1,000 gallons.

start miles 136349
end miles 212707
total miles 76358
start date 4/3/2003
end date 4/9/2011
years covered 8
miles/year 9544.75
miles/month 795.3958333
miles/day 26.07855191

AVG american/year 13,476
better by -29.17%
gas saved per year 141.9330992
gas saved total 1135.464793
dollars saved total $3,406.39

Assumed $3/gallon, I have no idea what the real figure should be.

zzyzzx says

My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I’m guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won’t make such a car.

What milage you got with that? That escort was the one of the least impressive car I ever drove. Get rid of it. lol. Not sure about why they won't make such a car, but they certainly can make a POS car that gets broke right after the warranty expires.

I think most 1.6L engines today can perform way better than that 1.9L. For instance, I heard good things about new ford fiesta, which has 1.4L or 1.6L in it. New 1.6L engine in new hyundai elantra makes over 30 miles/gal in the city, over 40miles/gal in the highway.

See... 100 mpg sounds great whether we can see it on the road in near future or not. I want to see such a car w/ US automakers too.

The 2012 Yaris (nee Vitz) seems like it could be a contender:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-yaris-2012.html

"Stop/start" technology, just meaning it can kill the engine at a stop and quickly relight (under 1 second) as needed. I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

Anyhow some reports of 62 MPG all the way up to 75 MPG for the 1.0L version.

Something is happening, people driving less:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hEtu6TwFuyqm7VTvwBZSLNc_yq9g?docId=ada08116798a4505ad68a85eaa14a723

sfbubblebuyer says

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

There’s a lot of nice diesel automotive hardware in Europe. Drove a Fiat diesel for a week in Sicily last year and, wow, that car had pep. It was roomy, quiet and had incredible mileage for its size.
EBGuy says

But how did the wiper blades handle the blood of the infidels you mowed down with it? Did the cabin noise deadening technology dampen their screams enough for you to listen to your Mannheim Steamroller CD with a cheery smile on your face?

I pictured him doing it with Ride of the Valkyries blaring from the stereo system.

Vicente says

I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

I personally wouldn't trust a starter under those conditions.

zzyzzx says

Vicente says

I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

I personally wouldn’t trust a starter under those conditions.

Some of these new cars with start/stop technology uses an INTEGRATED starter motor, meaning that the starter motor/alternator is (a) no longer belt driven and (b) no longer mounted separataley from the engine.

Think about it, the reason that hybrids like Toyota Prius and Honda Insight already can easily have start/stop is that they already have an integrated starter engine, namely the main electrical motor/generator.

Not having a drive belt improves reliability and efficiency significantly.

justme says

Think about it, the reason that hybrids like Toyota Prius and Honda Insight already can easily have start/stop is that they already have an integrated starter engine, namely the main electrical motor/generator.

But don't hybrids need to do this on/off business far less frequently than vehicles that use 'stop/start' at every traffic light? I don't own a hybrid, but my understanding is that the ICE runs for extended periods of time, then shuts down for extended periods of time. Frequently starting and stopping an ICE is harder on it than running it constantly which could lead to unexpected maintenance issues...

seaside says

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

Most Metros came with the standard 1L 3cyl / 5speed manual.

After the Metro was stiffened and made heavier to meet newer crash test standards, a 1.3L 4cyl was offered.

An automatic was offered with the 4 cyl for those who wanted to make their Metros completely mundane.

terrietDeaner,

My experience with driving or being a passenger in a Prius is that it will shut down every time you stop.

Yes, start/stop can be harder on the engine if it never gets warm, but note how Prius has a thermos flask to keep some cooling water hot.

(duplicate deleted)

(duplicate deleted)

seaside says

zzyzzx says
My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I’m guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won’t make such a car.
What milage you got with that? That escort was the one of the least impressive car I ever drove. Get rid of it. lol. Not sure about why they won’t make such a car, but they certainly can make a POS car that gets broke right after the warranty expires.
I think most 1.6L engines today can perform way better than that 1.9L. For instance, I heard good things about new ford fiesta, which has 1.4L or 1.6L in it. New 1.6L engine in new hyundai elantra makes over 30 miles/gal in the city, over 40miles/gal in the highway.

That's just it, my Escort get 32MPG on a bad day in Baltimore-DC traffic. Given how that's about the same as cars made today that are 2/3 it's size, I see no reason to "upgrade" to a newer car, just go get 1-2MPG better (if at all). And Escorts are very reliable cars. I've been driving them since January 1985 and am on my 2nd one and it has over 200K miles on it. I could care less how long it takes to get to 60MPH from a stop. I learned how to drive in a Chevette.

@seaside

It looks somewhat like a smart car... but it's different. I'll try to find out (not common even here)...

still looking..

zzyzzx says

That’s just it, my Escort get 32MPG on a bad day in Baltimore-DC traffic. Given how that’s about the same as cars made today that are 2/3 it’s size, I see no reason to “upgrade” to a newer car, just go get 1-2MPG better (if at all).

The Escort is like a typical European car was already 20 years ago: Not too big, not too heavy, and with a sensible 4-cyl engine. And "everybody" drives that type car. Good choice, zzyzzx.

In Europe, a very large fraction of the car fleet has been getting 30+mpg for the last 20 years, and not just inching slowly towards that number NOW.

In the last 10 years they have switched in droves to similar-sized cars with diesel engines, and they are getting 40-45-50 mpg.

The average US consumer is such an incredible waster of energy that it makes my head hurt just thinking about.

My car weighs 3400 lbs but it is a 4cyl 2.X liter and I get almost 30 mpg average, with plenty of city driving in the mix. For my next car the goal is to get 50 mpg.