patrick.net

The housing bubble required several players outside of realtors, appraisers, underwriters, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Barney Frank, Christ Dodd, Bill Clinton, George Bush, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, etc. All of these people and entities benefitted in a variety of ways as housing continued to escalate, including the following:

Sellers .... that wanted to sell for the highest price possible.

Buyers .... that wanted to buy real estate under the false hope that it was a sure way to become rich, the easy way.

Greed is not a phenomenon that belongs solely to real estate agents.

Or as I like to say, EVERYONE in the securitization stream is culpable, from the home buyer all the way through to the buyer the MBS. Any one player could have pulled the plug -- but no one did.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

One thing was true though. Most people really do borrow as much as possible, whenever they can.

The things that frustrates me the most, even is a buyers market is you can’t compete with stupid.

Amen to that.

and the finance houses that underwrote the securities
How far to you want to set the wayback machine, Sherman? These guys stopped giving a $@#! once they became publicly traded companies -- after all, its just the shareholders who have something to lose. About the only soft spot I have in the blame game is the the influence peddling in the Magnetar Trade that went on before the bubble popped. Material disclosure? Who could have known? I think this put the accelerator to the floor and allowed the house of cards to go a couple of years beyond it's natural end point.

BobbyS says

Furthermore, this is a forum about real estate, so it is natural that the here will complain about realtors a great deal.

If in a random business blog the topic of "what occupations in general do you despise or think are criminal," realtors would be right up there with stock traders and pickpockets. But yes, it's only natural that in a housing forum we all hate those parasites.

RayAmerica says

On an annual basis, how many people lose their lives due to real estate agents?

ZERO

How many of my friends and coworkers bought the advice of their realtors and suffered a financial loss greater than you could imagine: MOST. Their lives are fucked. realtors do kill people too. But since you set the bar that low, I don't know where you plan to go from there.

RayAmerica says

Greed is not a phenomenon that belongs solely to real estate agents.

Correct. But they are the poster child for it in mainstream America. Greedy, overpaid, liars, fuck their clients, etc.

klarek says

How many of my friends and coworkers bought the advice of their realtors and suffered a financial loss greater than you could imagine: MOST. Their lives are fucked. realtors do kill people too. But since you set the bar that low, I don’t know where you plan to go from there.

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor's job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market. They are not economists and aren't well versed in how to spot a bubble.

It is not a good idea to trust that salespeople are looking out for your interests. Just like it is not a good idea to send checks to African Royalty that emailed you....

Nomograph says

I agree with Ray 100%. Alert the media.

I called CBS News to report it. Amazingly, they already knew about it.

tatupu70 says

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor’s job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market. They are not economists and aren’t well versed in how to spot a bubble.
It is not a good idea to trust that salespeople are looking out for your interests. Just like it is not a good idea to send checks to African Royalty that emailed you….

Another story worthy of media attention. I agree 100%.

tatupu70 says

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor’s job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market.

To an uninformed buyer (which I think represents 99% of first time buyers and 75% of move-ups), the realtor is the king of market information. Yes, their job is to sell. I mean, open doors. Whatever.

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of "my realtor said I'd be priced out if I didn't buy now, and they are the experts".

Naive and trustworthy people get fucked every day by those scumbags. By being in the industry, they are given the benefit of doubt by most of their clients. How is it that you can't see how morally objectionable this bullshit is?

RayAmerica says

Another story worthy of media attention. I agree 100%.

So how many of your past clients are underwater? In foreclosure or already gone through the process? Better yet, how many of your buyers from 2003-2008 would you have the courage to speak to, face-to-face? Of course, you're not responsible, and I'm sure you didn't peddle the "buy now before you're priced out forever" line.

So, how many?

klarek says

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of “my realtor said I’d be priced out if I didn’t buy now, and they are the experts”.

You might need to get some new friends. Seriously--do you think someone who's job it is to sell houses is going to tell you not to buy? Not to mention that probably 95% of the experts also were saying the same things. In what world do you think it's possible that a realtor would tell a client that they shouldn't buy??

Again--they are experts in the housing market. Not macro-economics. They know which areas have Cape Cods or ranch style houses. And what comparables sell for. Trusting them to tell you if the house will increase in value is like asking your broker how his stock picks will perform.

RayAmerica says

This thread illustrates very well that there are a lot of insecure people here. This obsession with real estate agents is comical.

Might it have something to do with the fact that this is a RE discussion site?

Nomograph says

BTW, didn’t you say you are studying to be a RE agent?

Yes, getting my license. No, will not be a full time agent. I have a normal, non-scumbag job. Just doing this to keep friends and relatives' money in their own hands and out of the claws of realtors.

tatupu70 says

Seriously–do you think someone who’s job it is to sell houses is going to tell you not to buy?

As far as most first time buyers are concerned, they are the authority on real estate. It's not that they'd say it's a bad time to buy, it's that within their exclusive access to their clients they can come up with a number of provided reasons (propaganda) issued by NAR. I don't blame my friends just because they were naive. Their intentions were not evil like realtors' intentions are.

klarek says

Their intentions were not evil like realtors’ intentions are

Evil? Give me a break. If you want to blame them for your friends ignorance, you're welcome to it. When they buy a 6% load on their mutual fund, it will be the finance guy's fault. When they buy the rustproofing on their new car, it's the car salesman's fault. When they get the 5 year warranty on their new TV, it's the Best Buy checkout kid's fault.

It's funny--I thought I remembered you advocating personal responsibility on a different thread. What happened to that train of thought?

tatupu70 says

It’s funny–I thought I remembered you advocating personal responsibility on a different thread. What happened to that train of thought?

Correct, and my friends are paying for their mistakes. There is nothing inconsistent with what I'm saying here and then, nor does it take away from the point that realtors are lying, lowlife scumbags.

klarek says

There is nothing inconsistent with what I’m saying here and then

Of course there is. Personal responsibility means, among other things, not blaming others for your mistakes. Blaming a realtor because you bought a house at the top of a bubble is most certainly blaming another for your mistake.

tatupu70 says

Of course there is. Personal responsibility means, among other things, not blaming others for your mistakes.

Dumbass, they're not blaming their realtor. Reading comprehension FAIL.

klarek says

Dumbass, they’re not blaming their realtor. Reading comprehension FAIL.

Yes, but you are!

tatupu70 says

Yes, but you are!

Track back in this conversation to where I think it was RayAmerica said that realtors don't kill people, or some sort of desperate defense of the industry. My point was that they do hurt people. People I know that trusted their advice over my own and subsequently had to pay a serious price for it. That isn't me abdicating my friends and coworkers of their personal responsibility.

By trying to twist that argument, you're either suffering a severe case of mental impairment to the point that you lack any reading comprehension ability, or you're trying to split hairs with me out of bitterness.

klarek says

My point was that they do hurt people.

And my point was they don't hurt people. I'm not twisting anything. I have been accused of having a mental impairment, however. I'm a LIB after all, and just ask Abe. We're all mentally impaired.

tatupu70 says

And my point was they don’t hurt people.

Yes, they do. Any business that involves constant lying, disinformation, and a de facto cartel does hurt people.

klarek says

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of “my realtor said I’d be priced out if I didn’t buy now, and they are the experts”.

Interesting statement. So what you are saying is that these people were ALL told the exact same thing and they had no other means to verify what they were saying was true. Do these friends of yours believe everything they hear? Are these people living under a bridge and have no access to the net, etc.? If people are dumb enough to believe someone that is in ANY sales as complete "expert" truth, they're going to have an awful lot of experiences where they will be easily seperated from their money.

Nomograph says

BTW, didn’t you say you are studying to be a RE agent?

ANSWER:

klarek says

It’s extremely difficult to buy or sell without coughing up money to some pond scum realtor.

klarek says

I’m just getting my license

klarek says

I have a normal, non-scumbag job. Just doing this to keep friends and relatives’ money in their own hands and out of the claws of realtors.

As an "agent," if you want to work for free, that's fine. But your BROKER will make typically 25%, the co-broke agency will get 50%. Your so called "friends" (highly questionable) and "relatives" (if they'll admit to it) are only going to save 25% of that evil commission. LOL

klarek says

Yes, they do. Any business that involves constant lying, disinformation, and a de facto cartel does hurt people.

Why don't your "friends" sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

Klarek, I hope you are getting a BROKER license, not just a salesperson license.

RayAmerica says

Why don’t your “friends” sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

You're kidding me, right? NAR is another one of these so-called self-regulated organizations, similar to FINRA, SEC (only 10% jesting on that one) and so on.

RayAmerica says

As an “agent,” if you want to work for free, that’s fine. But your BROKER will make typically 25%, the co-broke agency will get 50%. Your so called “friends” (highly questionable) and “relatives” (if they’ll admit to it) are only going to save 25% of that evil commission. LOL

Correct, and that's another testament to the criminal enterprise you are part of. Just because Paulie Walnuts has to kick up a portion of his cut to Tony Soprano, it doesn't mean he isn't a criminal scumbag. And that 25% I could save them equals thousands of dollars. You also have your numbers reversed. The 3% gets split off between the agent and the broker. Sometimes it's as much as 50/50, but can also be 90/10 (agent/broker). So the savings are considerable.

Go ahead and lol all you want. You're part of a horribly corrupt business enterprise. Your mocking someone for wanting to save their friends and family from being robbed the rats such as yourself explains how you can do what you do and still sleep at night.

RayAmerica says

Why don’t your “friends” sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

If you're being serious, then you are even stupider than I thought. In the VA REB rules, it's not permissible for agents to make statements about the future values or projections of one's property. It's something that can get their licenses suspended or revoked, but they and their brokers are completely off the hook in terms of compensatory remittances. In other words, it's not a suable offense, dipshit. Either way though, it would be impossible to prove unless all conversations were recorded by the client.

I'm not complaining on behalf of my friends. I'm just saying that you dumbshit realtors yabber on all day to your clients about the market and changing conditions, yet you have zero economic fundamentals to draw from. I have never seen an industry so full of complete morons that have no fucking idea what they're talking about. Your clients, because they know how richly you're being rewarded, believe incorrectly that you cockroaches know what you're talking about and are looking out for their interests. You can call them idiots for believing you, but that's beside the point. You and your brethren are nothing but a malicious, thieving, criminal enterprise. Oh, but at least you guys aren't killing people, right? Isn't that your vindication?

justme says

Klarek, I hope you are getting a BROKER license, not just a salesperson license.

It takes three years of being an active licensee before one can be a broker. Frankly I'm not sure if I want to go that far. My day job pays well enough and keeps me busy enough that I'd rather not jump all the way into a career of dealing with realtor scumbags every day. It's depressing enough just to listen to their radio ads and deal with them personally on infrequent occasions. To do it daily would probably kill me.

Just an added anecdotal story:

There's a short sale I'm interested in that's under contract. I called the listing agent this morning, identified myself as in interested buyer. She told me it was under contract, and when I asked what the offer amount was, she said "I'm not allowed to say..... but just between you and me, it's within the range of 330k-350k.

That's significantly less than I thought it would be and well below the listing price. If the buyers fall through with their lenders, I'll be the first person on her "to call" list (because she thinks I don't have an agent, and wants to double dip on her commission). She might have just cost her clients tens of thousands of dollars right there. She didn't even know my name, nor did I have to do more than ask. Not even nudge, just ask. It's almost impossible to engage with scumbag realtors without them doing something unethical, malicious, dishonest, etc.

Rob, I've been meaning to ask you, what are the chances I can find a broker that isn't a realtor? Do you pay all the NAR dues every year, or have you found a way around joining the cartel? That's really the biggest turnoff in this whole process, like joining Amway.

robertoaribas says

klarek can always join a 100% firm. I pay a monthly office rent of $25, and $250 per transaction to my broker, I submit all paperwork on online, and only go to the office if they are having a party.

That is a good arrangement. Particularly the party part lol.

klarek says

It takes three years of being an active licensee before one can be a broker.

Isn't it the case (in California) that with any 4-year college degree you can go straight to the broker exam?

klarek says

That is a good arrangement. Particularly the party part lol.

I'm biting my tongue.

justme says

Isn’t it the case (in California) that with any 4-year college degree you can go straight to the broker exam?

I don't know about CA. I do know that where I live (VA) it's a minimum of three years of active license to be a broker. Pretty sure there are no educational requirements. It's not like they bother trying to enforce the high school/GED requirements they established here. First day of class, all the foreign folks were asking about that because they went to high school in places like Mumbai and it's not exactly convenient to get high school records. A little *wink wink* from the instructor and some assurance that they needn't worry.

robertoaribas says

klarek can always join a 100% firm. I pay a monthly office rent of $25, and $250 per transaction to my broker, I submit all paperwork on online, and only go to the office if they are having a party.

Years ago I worked for a 100% shop. The way that they operated was share of office (according to sq foot), share of receptionist/secretary (me), share of advertising by line inch, and misc charges (supplies, etc). These were taken from commissions which were paid to the broker, fees removed, then paid to the agent. Personal fees such as MLS fees were paid by the agents... The realtors voted to accept/reject new agents - and "new" meant new to the shop, not the job. Everyone had at least 5 years experience and met a previous sales threshold. They were nasty, back-stabbing people who believed themselves superior to others. The shop ended up closing long before the recession hit.

You're in Arizona - and since the interwebs became the rave, I'm sure that things have changed. You don't take up space and your market is down. But how do you handle fees? Does the $250/transaction make up for it? Do you have a minimum? Just curious.

klarek says

Your mocking someone for wanting to save their friends and family from being robbed the rats such as yourself explains how you can do what you do and still sleep at night.

Klarkek: I get that you're trying to save some people money. But does that mean you have minimums and fees? Will you be able to pay for yourself, or merely subsidize family and eat your fees?

elliemae says

Klarkek: I get that you’re trying to save some people money. But does that mean you have minimums and fees? Will you be able to pay for yourself, or merely subsidize family and eat your fees?

I'm prepared to take a loss if need be. I'd make it up to myself when buying/selling my own properties. If my vitriol above is any indication, I have a pretty strong moral objective to the rats in this industry, and would take a loss to help a friend and hurt another realtor's bottom line.

justme says

You’re kidding me, right? NAR is another one of these so-called self-regulated organizations, similar to FINRA, SEC (only 10% jesting on that one) and so on.

Not kidding at all. If a real estate agent committed fraud and it's provable, you have a case.

RayAmerica says

Not kidding at all. If a real estate agent committed fraud and it’s provable, you have a case.

Provable. That would be the operative word.

Lame that you completely ignored my refutation of your bullshit above about being sued versus license revocation.

Klarek, it's good to know you live in VA.

Is it happened to be northern VA area, and your business area would be including Alexandria, Fairfax or Springfield? I may want to be one of your prey(?) when the time is right. Being a fellow patricker counts? :)

**
Ever got a letter from the other lawyer that stated "prove it"?
The proof must be 1. verifiable, 2. directly related to the very matter and 3. must be legally identified and imposable to be accepted in the court. Piles of proofs that suggest something, or even the fact this guy raped you from behind, don't do much if you unable to establish all of the above. That's why OJ simpson got away.