patrick.net

Loan officers did an enormous amount of damage to the housing market. Loan officers were telling everyone that had the ears to hear that home equity was "sleeping" and not making any money. They advised taking the equity money out (cash out refi) and investing it in mutual funds, etc. A lot of that money was also used to buy depreciating junk such as cars, boats, motorcycles, etc. ... most of which will be in the junk yard while they continue to pay for it 30 years later. Many (if not most) of these same people now have mortgages that are higher than their cash out refinanced home is worth. Literally trillions of dollars were removed from the equity position of homeowners, which in turn fueled the bulk of Bush's economy.

Also, loan officers are paid commissions based on the amount of the loan, so there was a huge incentive to talk homeowners into removing as much equity as possible in order to increase the refinanced mortgage amount.

Armando148 says

This is still happening, and not all realtors are bad but a large majority of them are.

What statistical proof do you have to prove your statement?

It's amazing that you people spend so much time whining about Realtors when the bulk of the "evil" they are supposed to do to you can only be done if YOU let them. On the other hand, politicians do enormous harm to this country and YOU literally every single day, and yet there is barely a whimper. There is something very strange about that.

There's plenty of blame to go around, and there's not much that can be done to stem the tide of corruption, greed, and other unscrupulous behavior. You can just act, react and adapt. You can yell at a tree for growing right into your house, but it won't do much to stop it from growing into it.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

The things that frustrates me the most, even is a buyers market is you can’t compete with stupid.

LoL - quote of the year.

RayAmerica says

Armando148 says

This is still happening, and not all realtors are bad but a large majority of them are.

What statistical proof do you have to prove your statement?

I don't know what would satisfy you as ironclad proof, but the fact that everybody that is't a realtor believes it should be good enough. Go ahead and search google for the most and least respected professions. Guess which list realtors end up on.

RayAmerica says

It’s amazing that you people spend so much time whining about Realtors when the bulk of the “evil” they are supposed to do to you can only be done if YOU let them. On the other hand, politicians do enormous harm to this country and YOU literally every single day, and yet there is barely a whimper. There is something very strange about that.

So can you tell us the proportion of complaints made against politicians versus the proportion of complaints made against realtors of the general populace and of the responders of this forum? Furthermore, this is a forum about real estate, so it is natural that the here will complain about realtors a great deal.

Please, it's REALTORS®; these folks are professionals. It's not like they caused home prices to become unaffordable; in fact, they helped make them more affordable.

klarek says

I don’t know what would satisfy you as ironclad proof, but the fact that everybody that is’t a realtor believes it should be good enough

Like when everyone thought housing only went up?

On an annual basis, how many people lose their lives due to real estate agents?

ZERO

On an annual basis, how many people in the USA lose their lives due to medical malpractice?

195,000

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

The housing bubble required several players outside of realtors, appraisers, underwriters, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Barney Frank, Christ Dodd, Bill Clinton, George Bush, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, etc. All of these people and entities benefitted in a variety of ways as housing continued to escalate, including the following:

Sellers .... that wanted to sell for the highest price possible.

Buyers .... that wanted to buy real estate under the false hope that it was a sure way to become rich, the easy way.

Greed is not a phenomenon that belongs solely to real estate agents.

Or as I like to say, EVERYONE in the securitization stream is culpable, from the home buyer all the way through to the buyer the MBS. Any one player could have pulled the plug -- but no one did.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

One thing was true though. Most people really do borrow as much as possible, whenever they can.

The things that frustrates me the most, even is a buyers market is you can’t compete with stupid.

Amen to that.

and the finance houses that underwrote the securities
How far to you want to set the wayback machine, Sherman? These guys stopped giving a $@#! once they became publicly traded companies -- after all, its just the shareholders who have something to lose. About the only soft spot I have in the blame game is the the influence peddling in the Magnetar Trade that went on before the bubble popped. Material disclosure? Who could have known? I think this put the accelerator to the floor and allowed the house of cards to go a couple of years beyond it's natural end point.

BobbyS says

Furthermore, this is a forum about real estate, so it is natural that the here will complain about realtors a great deal.

If in a random business blog the topic of "what occupations in general do you despise or think are criminal," realtors would be right up there with stock traders and pickpockets. But yes, it's only natural that in a housing forum we all hate those parasites.

RayAmerica says

On an annual basis, how many people lose their lives due to real estate agents?

ZERO

How many of my friends and coworkers bought the advice of their realtors and suffered a financial loss greater than you could imagine: MOST. Their lives are fucked. realtors do kill people too. But since you set the bar that low, I don't know where you plan to go from there.

RayAmerica says

Greed is not a phenomenon that belongs solely to real estate agents.

Correct. But they are the poster child for it in mainstream America. Greedy, overpaid, liars, fuck their clients, etc.

klarek says

How many of my friends and coworkers bought the advice of their realtors and suffered a financial loss greater than you could imagine: MOST. Their lives are fucked. realtors do kill people too. But since you set the bar that low, I don’t know where you plan to go from there.

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor's job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market. They are not economists and aren't well versed in how to spot a bubble.

It is not a good idea to trust that salespeople are looking out for your interests. Just like it is not a good idea to send checks to African Royalty that emailed you....

Nomograph says

I agree with Ray 100%. Alert the media.

I called CBS News to report it. Amazingly, they already knew about it.

tatupu70 says

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor’s job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market. They are not economists and aren’t well versed in how to spot a bubble.
It is not a good idea to trust that salespeople are looking out for your interests. Just like it is not a good idea to send checks to African Royalty that emailed you….

Another story worthy of media attention. I agree 100%.

tatupu70 says

That is beyond idiotic. A realtor’s job is to sell houses. They are knowledgeable about the local area and the housing market.

To an uninformed buyer (which I think represents 99% of first time buyers and 75% of move-ups), the realtor is the king of market information. Yes, their job is to sell. I mean, open doors. Whatever.

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of "my realtor said I'd be priced out if I didn't buy now, and they are the experts".

Naive and trustworthy people get fucked every day by those scumbags. By being in the industry, they are given the benefit of doubt by most of their clients. How is it that you can't see how morally objectionable this bullshit is?

RayAmerica says

Another story worthy of media attention. I agree 100%.

So how many of your past clients are underwater? In foreclosure or already gone through the process? Better yet, how many of your buyers from 2003-2008 would you have the courage to speak to, face-to-face? Of course, you're not responsible, and I'm sure you didn't peddle the "buy now before you're priced out forever" line.

So, how many?

klarek says

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of “my realtor said I’d be priced out if I didn’t buy now, and they are the experts”.

You might need to get some new friends. Seriously--do you think someone who's job it is to sell houses is going to tell you not to buy? Not to mention that probably 95% of the experts also were saying the same things. In what world do you think it's possible that a realtor would tell a client that they shouldn't buy??

Again--they are experts in the housing market. Not macro-economics. They know which areas have Cape Cods or ranch style houses. And what comparables sell for. Trusting them to tell you if the house will increase in value is like asking your broker how his stock picks will perform.

RayAmerica says

This thread illustrates very well that there are a lot of insecure people here. This obsession with real estate agents is comical.

Might it have something to do with the fact that this is a RE discussion site?

Nomograph says

BTW, didn’t you say you are studying to be a RE agent?

Yes, getting my license. No, will not be a full time agent. I have a normal, non-scumbag job. Just doing this to keep friends and relatives' money in their own hands and out of the claws of realtors.

tatupu70 says

Seriously–do you think someone who’s job it is to sell houses is going to tell you not to buy?

As far as most first time buyers are concerned, they are the authority on real estate. It's not that they'd say it's a bad time to buy, it's that within their exclusive access to their clients they can come up with a number of provided reasons (propaganda) issued by NAR. I don't blame my friends just because they were naive. Their intentions were not evil like realtors' intentions are.

klarek says

Their intentions were not evil like realtors’ intentions are

Evil? Give me a break. If you want to blame them for your friends ignorance, you're welcome to it. When they buy a 6% load on their mutual fund, it will be the finance guy's fault. When they buy the rustproofing on their new car, it's the car salesman's fault. When they get the 5 year warranty on their new TV, it's the Best Buy checkout kid's fault.

It's funny--I thought I remembered you advocating personal responsibility on a different thread. What happened to that train of thought?

tatupu70 says

It’s funny–I thought I remembered you advocating personal responsibility on a different thread. What happened to that train of thought?

Correct, and my friends are paying for their mistakes. There is nothing inconsistent with what I'm saying here and then, nor does it take away from the point that realtors are lying, lowlife scumbags.

klarek says

There is nothing inconsistent with what I’m saying here and then

Of course there is. Personal responsibility means, among other things, not blaming others for your mistakes. Blaming a realtor because you bought a house at the top of a bubble is most certainly blaming another for your mistake.

tatupu70 says

Of course there is. Personal responsibility means, among other things, not blaming others for your mistakes.

Dumbass, they're not blaming their realtor. Reading comprehension FAIL.

klarek says

Dumbass, they’re not blaming their realtor. Reading comprehension FAIL.

Yes, but you are!

tatupu70 says

Yes, but you are!

Track back in this conversation to where I think it was RayAmerica said that realtors don't kill people, or some sort of desperate defense of the industry. My point was that they do hurt people. People I know that trusted their advice over my own and subsequently had to pay a serious price for it. That isn't me abdicating my friends and coworkers of their personal responsibility.

By trying to twist that argument, you're either suffering a severe case of mental impairment to the point that you lack any reading comprehension ability, or you're trying to split hairs with me out of bitterness.

klarek says

My point was that they do hurt people.

And my point was they don't hurt people. I'm not twisting anything. I have been accused of having a mental impairment, however. I'm a LIB after all, and just ask Abe. We're all mentally impaired.

tatupu70 says

And my point was they don’t hurt people.

Yes, they do. Any business that involves constant lying, disinformation, and a de facto cartel does hurt people.

klarek says

Every friend I tried to talk into stepping off of the ledge said something to the effect of “my realtor said I’d be priced out if I didn’t buy now, and they are the experts”.

Interesting statement. So what you are saying is that these people were ALL told the exact same thing and they had no other means to verify what they were saying was true. Do these friends of yours believe everything they hear? Are these people living under a bridge and have no access to the net, etc.? If people are dumb enough to believe someone that is in ANY sales as complete "expert" truth, they're going to have an awful lot of experiences where they will be easily seperated from their money.

Nomograph says

BTW, didn’t you say you are studying to be a RE agent?

ANSWER:

klarek says

It’s extremely difficult to buy or sell without coughing up money to some pond scum realtor.

klarek says

I’m just getting my license

klarek says

I have a normal, non-scumbag job. Just doing this to keep friends and relatives’ money in their own hands and out of the claws of realtors.

As an "agent," if you want to work for free, that's fine. But your BROKER will make typically 25%, the co-broke agency will get 50%. Your so called "friends" (highly questionable) and "relatives" (if they'll admit to it) are only going to save 25% of that evil commission. LOL

klarek says

Yes, they do. Any business that involves constant lying, disinformation, and a de facto cartel does hurt people.

Why don't your "friends" sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

Klarek, I hope you are getting a BROKER license, not just a salesperson license.

RayAmerica says

Why don’t your “friends” sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

You're kidding me, right? NAR is another one of these so-called self-regulated organizations, similar to FINRA, SEC (only 10% jesting on that one) and so on.

RayAmerica says

As an “agent,” if you want to work for free, that’s fine. But your BROKER will make typically 25%, the co-broke agency will get 50%. Your so called “friends” (highly questionable) and “relatives” (if they’ll admit to it) are only going to save 25% of that evil commission. LOL

Correct, and that's another testament to the criminal enterprise you are part of. Just because Paulie Walnuts has to kick up a portion of his cut to Tony Soprano, it doesn't mean he isn't a criminal scumbag. And that 25% I could save them equals thousands of dollars. You also have your numbers reversed. The 3% gets split off between the agent and the broker. Sometimes it's as much as 50/50, but can also be 90/10 (agent/broker). So the savings are considerable.

Go ahead and lol all you want. You're part of a horribly corrupt business enterprise. Your mocking someone for wanting to save their friends and family from being robbed the rats such as yourself explains how you can do what you do and still sleep at night.

RayAmerica says

Why don’t your “friends” sue the pants off their agents that supposedly constantly lied and provided provable disinformation? That should be an incredibly easy case to win in court.

If you're being serious, then you are even stupider than I thought. In the VA REB rules, it's not permissible for agents to make statements about the future values or projections of one's property. It's something that can get their licenses suspended or revoked, but they and their brokers are completely off the hook in terms of compensatory remittances. In other words, it's not a suable offense, dipshit. Either way though, it would be impossible to prove unless all conversations were recorded by the client.

I'm not complaining on behalf of my friends. I'm just saying that you dumbshit realtors yabber on all day to your clients about the market and changing conditions, yet you have zero economic fundamentals to draw from. I have never seen an industry so full of complete morons that have no fucking idea what they're talking about. Your clients, because they know how richly you're being rewarded, believe incorrectly that you cockroaches know what you're talking about and are looking out for their interests. You can call them idiots for believing you, but that's beside the point. You and your brethren are nothing but a malicious, thieving, criminal enterprise. Oh, but at least you guys aren't killing people, right? Isn't that your vindication?

justme says

Klarek, I hope you are getting a BROKER license, not just a salesperson license.

It takes three years of being an active licensee before one can be a broker. Frankly I'm not sure if I want to go that far. My day job pays well enough and keeps me busy enough that I'd rather not jump all the way into a career of dealing with realtor scumbags every day. It's depressing enough just to listen to their radio ads and deal with them personally on infrequent occasions. To do it daily would probably kill me.

Just an added anecdotal story:

There's a short sale I'm interested in that's under contract. I called the listing agent this morning, identified myself as in interested buyer. She told me it was under contract, and when I asked what the offer amount was, she said "I'm not allowed to say..... but just between you and me, it's within the range of 330k-350k.

That's significantly less than I thought it would be and well below the listing price. If the buyers fall through with their lenders, I'll be the first person on her "to call" list (because she thinks I don't have an agent, and wants to double dip on her commission). She might have just cost her clients tens of thousands of dollars right there. She didn't even know my name, nor did I have to do more than ask. Not even nudge, just ask. It's almost impossible to engage with scumbag realtors without them doing something unethical, malicious, dishonest, etc.