patrick.net

True or not (I mean who trusts a devil?), I am believing investor90's story as if it were gospel. Patrick, please repost his story as a link on your front page - "airyone" needs to read it. One can only hope that the entire Realtard(R) profession goes extint o'er the next 5 years.

investor90 says

I faxed the HONEST packages ( comps + complete county records history on house) to my friend. He now hates REALTORS and hates bidding against himself! But he wanted the house. He ended up bidding 151k for that piece of termite ridden crap.

Despite your well researched advice he went ahead and bought anyway? And at that inflated price? Then he agreed to cut corners using an unlicensed contractor? You friend sounds like one of those who do not care about long range consequences, as long as they can have what they want right now. You know, the type that keeps easy credit stores, the "something for nothing" telephone/internet scams, and lotteries in business.

Yes, those realtors may have been unprincipled sharks, but in this case, those sharks had equally unprincipled and short sighted chum to feed on.

The day before he was to close on that house, you should have put him on a bus to Mexico with no money in his pockets. Anyway, I hope the next person you try to help listens to you.

Curious, most people with the ability to accumulate $151k purchase money are smart enough to insist on a home inspection and be properly sceptical of "multiple bids." Especially when asked to pay 31% over the asking price. I suspect your friend inherited that money, or maybe he actually won a lottery.

This is so unbelievably sad! A shack is what you would have gotten. Thank goodness you didn't win this 'bidding war' What a scam! These people should be ashamed at their greedy behavior. Walk away and know that this was a complete joke.

Headset- I didn't want to provide too much information, because it would be very easy for them (Realscum) to figure out all the people involved. I can tell you this person is smart and frugal, and from THEIR perspective, it was money well spent. The buyer owns his business, but leases his store property. He wanted to make a permanent location to protect his "moveable" property. By buying a house nearby, he could convert part of the house to SECURE STORAGE. This way, he doesn't have to worry about control by the owner of the commercial building. They want him to stay, because of all the crime, many retail stores are closing up and leaving the area. Since he was a renter, he has no place to store valuable inventory items. He is NOT stupid---but he needed ANY house very close by. He can walk to it in less than a few minutes. I understand he will be getting a CCW gun permit soon. He has been robbed many times.

It is ironic that local REALTORS are starving---but that does NOT stop them from LYING. Its like some disease---they just can't help themselves. I truly believe it is more than just evil and greed! I think they act this way---because they KNOW that in REAL terms---they are LOSERS who can't do anything else but take a mail order RE class ( NO DEGREE IS REQUIRED). So to feel good about their MISERABLE lying lives. it makes since to make EVERYONE else a CHUMP or sucker Knowing each day thay you have not only stolen from people, but also have carte balnche sionce none of the local state or Federal regulatory agencies care except that they want to keep a high FLOOR under housing prces.

Why can't we explain that LOW HOUSE PRICES ARE GOOD, and HIGH HOUSE PRICES are BAD?

We do this with EVERYTHING else---from cars to furniture to clothes, to food, but when it comes to houses---people think that PAYING MORE than the dump is worth makes them look smarter, wiser wealthier, when all it does is make them POORER And a debt slave. Think about this! A person who buys an overpriced dump--- mean "home" LOL----must pay and pay and endure anyhing problems that life brings them---from medical issues to family issues---the list is endless. So they listen to REALTORS and other pied pipers of misery and believe one thing ! DEBT IS WEALTH! But debt is almost never wealth unless you never pay it back...like what is happening to the economys----of MOST countries of the world.

KDlady- After looking at these responses---I am LOWERING how much I will pay for a house! Think about this idea PLEASE~!

Trade unions are there to protect workers from abusive or unsafe working conditions. Our goverenmet is supposed to do regulatory matters to protect us from inbridled cheating and stealing by those who think they can get away with it. The Realtards have their organization (NAR) which pays off politicians (campaign contributions--yeah right!---I say its PURE BRIBERY).

My idea: Develop a HOUSE BUYERS UNION or ASSOCIATION. All we need is a large membership- We can run it inexpensively by applying for grants designed for ANTI-CRIME homeland security approaches. THIS IS OUR country and we must take it back from thieves like the "TAN MAN" from Countrywide or those government types who encouraged Madoff to steal BiLLIONS by their INACTION.

I propose a national house buyers Association. What we do is NOT BUY, to get our power and control. Okay NAR, you want to keep spinning tales? Then our Association will refrain from buying any HOUSE for lets say THREE MONTHS. Open your mouths again and we will double it to six months. Now after a year of this---I CAN WAIT---I hace been waiting a long time already! I just SAVE MORE MONEY FOR ME!---not the Realtors who use OUR money against us by jacking up house prices.

Our slogan could be the JUST SAY NO ! to a "USED HOUSE". Anytime we start seeing "cozy fixer" we will counter with "EL DUMPO". HAS 30 years of leaking plumbing problems right here! This is a known gang hideout for the local bangers. Realtards have NO PROBLEM with hiding rat traps filled with asbestos as a "charming opportunity".

Bloomberg via Patrick.net:

Residential construction and home sales led the way out of the previous seven recessions going back to 1960, according to David Berson, chief economist of PMI Group, a mortgage insurer in Walnut Creek, California. Real-estate sales fuel consumer spending, which historically accounts for about 70 percent of gross domestic product, he said

.
This seems unreasonable, since all seven of the previous recessions did not include a housing bubble - the collapse of which was a major symptom of the recession present. Given that, how are home sales and new construction going to lead us out of this recession?

"These people should be ashamed at their greedy behavior."

Shame has no teeth. try imposing hefty dollar fines! kick in the wallet does does wonders...

investor90 says

I propose a national house buyers Association. What we do is NOT BUY, to get our power and control.

I like the idea, but remember that buyers are competing against each other. There is no discipline or organization.

In fact, all contact between buyers is deliberately blocked by realtors. The realtor's function is to prevent the free flow of information, to keep buyers at a disadvantage.

I think we need laws that make all house bids public information, just like we have for the stock market.

Amen, that is what we need.

Yes I heartily agree! We have to start somewhere! THE BENEFITS ARE ALMOST LIMITLESS. We can start a grassroots campaign to help those of us who are in the "BUYER" classification. After a few first tough years, we would also be strongly supporting the sellers as well. BECAUSE WE WOULD PUSH THE MLS and THE ESTATE AGENTS (Realtors) OUT OF THE EQUATION. Prices could drop 6% overnight. We need to follow Obama's lead and TRY ACTION FOR CHANGE. Lets have a PATRICK.NET poll after expanded discussion of the proposal. We need to figure out what our framework will be to suport the maximum number of consumers. I am NOT anti- seller, just anti lying, cheating and stealing.

Do you like my logo now? Let me know? Its just a pile of gold bullion ( the best is Mexican one or dos pesos) at $1010 /oz spot price. Minted until 1948. Not collector quality---gold value only.

Sigh - the buyer here is buying a story of multiple offers and the need to write begging letters? How long will it take for people to get it?
Zillow is wildly wrong about prices as they don't accept REO sales (in other words the market) as inputs. I personally know the owners of an almost identical property to this one - its Zillow value is almost $200k over the price the identical house next door sold for over a year ago.
The other thing I really don't get - and this is common - is how people are willing to kick down huge sums of money to buy a house fast. What is the rush? You are not buying lunch before a meeting - you are buying the space you may well live in forever.

I must admit I like the pile-of-gold logo.

A grassroots campaign to make all house bids (and sales!) public information might be just the thing to fix what's wrong with real estate. One reader told me that you are forbidden by law in some states from making addresses of officials like policemen and judges public knowledge, so criminals can't hunt them down for revenge. So we'd have to work around that law.

What exactly should be the public information about bids that would make it impossible for realtors to create fake bids?

* bid date
* bid amount
* bidder name?
* whether bid was withdrawn, or financing fell through

What else?

I would imagine a bid's relevance needs to be tied to the buyers financial abilities to support the bid in some manner - before a bid is acctually counted as a "bid". No idea how to do it, just pointing it out. lol

Add to Patricks list: In my opinion, there should be 3 LPO's (lenders price oppinions) to set an asking price on all REO's, not the BPO (broker price opinion) that is in place now. And those lenders would be on record as to an amount they are willing to value the home. Did I say that where it made sense?

Yes, good idea.

It's not a bid until it's an approved loan amount from a bank, or proof of cash on hand. Or a combination of those two.

Mortgage amounts are public information anyway, so it's no invasion of privacy.

How about:

Open Bids - to guard against false offers

Mortgages cannot be sold or securitized - to force lenders to use prudent borrower standards, since the original loan creator will be on the hook for default

Houses must have at least a 15% down payment = to prevent the "nothing down" bubbling and promote true affordability

No fees can be put into the mortgage - this will put a brake on junk fees and broker commissions, as they will be real out of pocket money and not just "a few bucks a month."

These policies would result in lower prices, lower rents, and lower home debt. Other parts of the economy would benefit from the money freed up from house expense. All at the expense of banking and Wall St.

I like all of those ideas.
I wonder though, wouldn't the buying and selling of safe/correct/honest mortgages be ok with proper lending rules in place durring their creation?

Bap33 says

I wonder though, wouldn’t the buying and selling of safe/correct/honest mortgages be ok with proper lending rules in place durring their creation?

True, but if you cannot pass off the loan to a mark, you will not look for ways to bend those rules.

I wonder use of floating ideas here on forum as no one from Congress is listening to us, thought of implementation of any such measure is not even worth dreaming..

If we hit the right nerve, and come up with a very simple and fair proposal that strikes people as the right thing to do, then it might take on a life of its own, as people start repeating it to each other. Then blogs will proliferate it, and then the mainstream press will pick it up.

Eventually someone will endorse it as part of his congressional campain, and others will see the popular support for it too and become supporters.

We just need the magic combination of words to get the ball rolling.

One more requirement for a really honest real estate market:

Sellers should be required to accept their asking price! Right now, they don't. They lie about what they'll accept just in the hopes of getting higher bids.

I called a townhome builder just now because I want to see which builders build a townhome with no vaulted ceilings (want to save on heating bills) and have energy efficient home especially when it's likely we'll be seeing $6/gallon gas in the future. Anyway, they're like are you going to buy now? I said no, waiting for the bottom to hit. They said, well I think it's here. I said well maybe so but there are going to be a lot of option ARMS reset now and in the future which is worse supposedly than the basic ARMS. I can't believe how many liars are out there including homeowners who think we're at the bottom!! These option ARMS, I believe, will have a big impact on the housing market. I'm just glad that I think time is on my side.

I don't understand this zeal to "own" a home RIGHT THIS MINUTE. Why must you people build your entire existences around getting into debt, especially with the collapse going on around you? Are you blind or just so insecure that you can't just rent for a while and wait for the real show to start? The tickets are still being sold and are still way overpriced, and the curtain is just barely off the floor. Just wait. You ain't seen nothing yet.

youngniceeyes says

I called a townhome builder just now because I want to see which builders build a townhome with no vaulted ceilings (want to save on heating bills) and have energy efficient home especially when it’s likely we’ll be seeing $6/gallon gas in the future. Anyway, they’re like are you going to buy now? I said no, waiting for the bottom to hit. They said, well I think it’s here. I said well maybe so but there are going to be a lot of option ARMS reset now and in the future which is worse supposedly than the basic ARMS. I can’t believe how many liars are out there including homeowners who think we’re at the bottom!! These option ARMS, I believe, will have a big impact on the housing market. I’m just glad that I think time is on my side.

There will be no bottom until 1) Unemployment heads back to 6 to 7% and 2) you stop hearing people talk about housing as investment.

chrisborden says

I don’t understand this zeal to “own” a home RIGHT THIS MINUTE. Why must you people build your entire existences around getting into debt, especially with the collapse going on around you? Are you blind or just so insecure that you can’t just rent for a while and wait for the real show to start? The tickets are still being sold and are still way overpriced, and the curtain is just barely off the floor. Just wait. You ain’t seen nothing yet.

It's pure psychology. The biggest part that plays into owning is the mentality that rent is throwing away the money as opposed to building the equity.

"A SF Redfin agent respond to our offer request Monday around noon with the disclosures, and gave me an estimate of 635k-655k, and stated the seller’s agent is expecting multiple offers so we should bid at the higher end of the range. Although I personally think the house worth about 635k with everything considered, I still went with her advise and bid 650k, just to make everyone happy and to get this home buying thing over with. At the time we submitted the offer, I am reasonably confident that we will win the bid. As a side note, the term is: as is, 7/14 days inspection/financial contingincy with 250k down."

That my friend is a big mistake. At some places, zillow low value might come close. Redfin lists the median 440$/sqft for the zip and that makes this house worth 550K. For the lot size, you could give another 25K, but considering the decline in prices for the next 2 years, I would realistically offer around 475K. But, the problem is none of the realtor would even write that offer.

big mistake? Oh, I beg to differ ... that is an Exxon Valdes mistake. A Columbia Space Shuttle mistake. FUBAR alert, FUBAR alert.

Edmond Fitzgerald
Heindenburg
New Coke
Ford Pinto
.... this purchace idea falls into this list .....

Speaking of mistakes, the prior post contains some: It is Exxon VALDEZ, HINDENBERG and the EDMUND Fitzgerald. Don't people check their facts?

chrisborden says

I don’t understand this zeal to “own” a home RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

It's politically incorrect, but I know from experience that there is a switch in the brain of most women which turns on when they first get pregnant and MAKES them want a house. The feel they must have a house for their baby, NOW.

Just biology, but responsible for a lot of debt. Maybe for most mortgage debt.

Everything about real estate, from greedy agents to the "I gotta have it right now" syndrome is designed for one thing and for one thing only: TO GET FOOLS INTO DEBT AND KEEP THEM THERE. It is obvious that is why the government bails out Wall Street and is trying its best to reinflate the debt bubble. If it is biology, then this species truly is in major decline. But if money troubles are what folks want, then who am I to stop them?

Good ideas, all, but for starters, "voters" must stop re-electing incumbents who are beholden to banks and other vermin. Nothing will change unless we clean House and Senate. Do not vote for an incumbent, ever, regardless of how good you think he or she has done. The sole purpose of our "representatives" is to stay in office. They do not care about you. I know because I once attended a "town hall" meeting of my Bay Area congressman, and he refused to my face to answer some very difficult and straightforward (and civilly presented) questions about this whole real estate sham. I knew I had him on a hook, and he knew it too.

chris , dude .... pointing out when I mis-spell is alot like pointing out when Obama tells a lie ... not much of a challenge!! lol. I do hope my message was understood, even with the mis-spelled words. Sorry for that. But, the "facts" are pretty close still, aint they?

Bap, yes and yes. Just trying to keep everyone honest and strike a blow for accuracy. It's the former newspaper editor in me. Precision, precision, precision.

>>HINDENBERG

No, really, it is HindenbUrg.

>>Just biology, but responsible for a lot of debt. Maybe for most mortgage debt.

In Silly Valley, I think they want the house before they'll even try. That would explain a lot of things.

I got a message from my agent saying “you and another offer are in the top 2. The sellers would like to offer you an opportunity to stand out from the other offer.” She also sggested us to do two things: a letter to seller, and increase price 2.5-5k. And the deadline for this is Wed at noon.

This same method was used on me a few months ago, so I started my own scam. I started approaching the listing agents the day they would list their properties, then telling them I would like for them to represent me and the buyer. At a minimum, this seemed to intrigue the Listing Agent to want to sell quickly at the asking price. I got many agents calling back thinking i would sucker myself into buying at a time where housing prices are falling.

Luckily, I have been reading on the threads about these different scams....so I figured why not scam the scammer when you know they only want a higher commission. I have yet to buy and at this rate it will be late next year before I see affordable prices in the neighborhoods worth buying.

In summary:

1. bid date
2. bid amount
3. bidder name?
4. whether bid was withdrawn, or financing fell through

5. Sellers should be required to accept their asking price! Right now, they don’t. They lie about what they’ll accept just in the hopes of getting higher bids.
Open Bids - to guard against false offers

6. Mortgages cannot be sold or securitized - to force lenders to use prudent borrower standards, since the original loan creator will be on the hook for default

7. Houses must have at least a 15% down payment = to prevent the “nothing down” bubbling and promote true affordability

8. No fees can be put into the mortgage - this will put a brake on junk fees and broker commissions, as they will be real out of pocket money and not just “a few bucks a month.”

9. In my opinion, there should be 3 LPO’s (lenders price oppinions) to set an asking price on all REO’s, not the BPO (broker price opinion) that is in place now. And those lenders would be on record as to an amount they are willing to value the home. Did I say that where it made sense?

My add: How about making it illegal for the agents to speak outside the presence of the buyer/seller.

When I sold my condo in 2002, I received four offers. One was barely over asking price ($1,000), and my agent (who happened to be my neighbor and the association president) told me that I HAD to accept it or risk being sued by the buyer. Of course, dumb, naive me at the time, I believed him. It didn't matter anyway because I wanted out. Worst of all, after the buyer signed off on the deal AND the inspection, her agent let her in (without my permission) to let her husband do a sneaky "inspection" beneath the house, and claimed she found some damaged pipes. I had to shell out $900 for some "repairs," and again, my agent said that if I complained, the buyer could have sued me for breach of contract! Now you know why I will never ever ever deal with a real estate agent for the rest of my life. They are lying, scheming bastards, on both sides.

Ok, so what is your rule that you want to add Chris?

4X, I like your rules

4X says

6. Mortgages cannot be sold or securitized - to force lenders to use prudent borrower standards, since the original loan creator will be on the hook for default

That alone would pretty much do the job. Here's why:

1. Banks would want down payments, and very large down payments for rental houses.

2. Banks would want accurate appraisals, and thus would get them.

3. Banks would only want to finance the actual collateral. Extra fees such as points and Realtor commissions would not be financed. That would put downward pressure on these fees since they would be actual cash at closing, not rolled into the loan.

It would be tough to pay $300k for a home when the bank will only loan 80% of the $250k the bank says the house is worth. People will be more sensitive to a 6% commission when the entire amount is due at closing. No point in false bids and other scams since driving the house price above the loanable limit is useless.

Good luck getting anything like that passed. Obama and Congress are owned by Goldman Sachs, and GS makes big money from securitization and has a vested interest in inflated house prices. We will most likely see increased efforts to aid securitization at tax payers expense, along with reduced down payments or downpayment assistence.