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Regarding a UBI


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2021 Mar 5, 12:54pm   2,767 views  45 comments

by Zak   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

"Some people will take the money and sit around and do nothing, but so what?"

I was thinking about this, and came up with the following. Tldr : eliminate income tax, and create a prosperity dividend instead of a UBI
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For UBI, the money doesn't magically come from nowhere. You have to take it from someone to give it to someone else. If you "print" it, then you take it from everyone equally, but it then gets spent and redistributed into the hands of business owners who benefit from the spending. This therefore hurts people who are not in the capitalist class through inflation. You can see this is true, because of our current minimum/living wage fight. If increasing GDP over time with inflation is supposed to help everyone, then the minimum wage shouldn't continue to be an issue, as more economic output distributed equally would tend to create additional higher paying jobs. Instead what we see is a reversion to a low paying service economy with more and more people bouncing off the minimum wage floor. At the same time, the wealth disparity is increasing, and the richest 1% have gained substantially more than the 99% below them over the previous 40 years. This can't be blamed on republicans, or democrats, or taxes, as taxes only take further from incomes, and don't ADD to people's incomes. Additionally, the trend has been consistent over both republican and democrat led presidencies and congresses.

So again, currently with a UBI, you will get inflation, which hurts savers, and benefits the 1%, as they get the money. So the bottom 10% will be marginally better off, the middle 89% will be markedly WORSE off, and the 1% will consolidate further wealth (as always). So what's the answer?

In my very humble opinion, a start to the answer is to eliminate the w-2 income tax, and instead gather that tax from income and wages paid by corporations. With the middle class no longer worried that every tax proposed will fiscally damage them, they will be willing to vote for social programs that come from tax revenues instead of from inflation. The tax code will be more fair, as corporations with actual lobbying power will fight amongst themselves to equalize taxes paid. Corporations will be the first to rat each other out from these double irish sandwich tax loops if it means they can lower their own tax burden, instead of jus relying on income taxes to fuel the government, and weasleing their way out of their fair share.

Then, we can do a UBI, but instead of a fixed base income, it can be a prosperity dividend. If the country does well, and GDP goes up, you get a bigger payout. If we have a bad year, your payout won't be as big, but we won't create inflation to erode your savings. Additionally, we eliminate 90% of the IRS having to focus on individual tax returns, and they can focus on corporate compliance. This also saves billions of dollars in paperwork and tax return costs each year.

A side benefit, all the government conspiracy theorist/haters will have a massive reduction in anti-government sentiment, as they are no longer under the gun from the IRS. And instead of people being against corporations (big AND small), we will be cheering for them to earn massive profits, and earn us a higher prosperity dividend.

Additionally, I could see the rich actually lobbying for HIGHER capital gains taxes, and lower wage taxes, as wage taxes would need to be paid every year, but capital gains can occur much less frequently.

What do you guys think?

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25   Zak   2021 Mar 13, 11:17am  

To be clear, I am NOT in favor of doing this in general. However, since it doesn't seem like we can do the right thing (getting rid of the FIAT currency) then it seems that what we must do is mitigate the damage as the poor are literally getting decimated by inflationary monetary policy. I hate it, because it makes the centralization of money and control back into the federal government seem not quite so terrible, and even makes poor people think the government is giving them money, but it's less bad than allowing fiat currency WITHOUT a public dividend. The reality is, the money would be those peoples in the first place if we had a sound currency.

To be clear, this isn't about workers vs takers. That is a mislabeling in the first place. The takers are those in the banking and government, inflating away the value of wages and saved money. Even someone not working likely has a family member that IS working, who is less and less able to take care of the non-worker as their wages are inflated away. And it's not the person on public assistance that is taking the money in taxes is it? It's the police state. If you're against something, it should be against mandatory income taxes. Argue for taxes to be voluntary. We seem to collect plenty of money with voluntarily paid sales and energy taxes. Don't want to pay the tax? Don't buy that thing, or don't buy gas, or don't use public utilities. There are alternative options for each of those, it's just massively more convenient to voluntarily pay the tax. And we don't even need police(IRS) to enforce the paying of those taxes (only that merchants actually submit them). On that note though, we should also eliminate taxes on water and sewer, as you literally cannot live without them. Not that they should be free, but we shouldn't tax them at least.
26   HeadSet   2021 Mar 13, 11:49am  

PeopleUnited says
The UBI system would collapse under its own weight as the workers would quickly be outnumbered by takers to the point where the availability of goods and services would dry up completely except for the Uber wealthy who could still afford to pay exorbitant prices for what they want and need.

Actually, that is where cheap Chinese imports an illegals come in. The idle mob created by the UBI would spend their money on goods created by essentially slaves. Rents, however, would rise and somewhat blunt this effect.

An example of "UBI style affect on rents is shown at military bases near small towns. Whenever the Basic Quarters Allowance is increased thus putting extra money into the pockets of all the local servicemembers, rents all over town immediately go up. That stinks for the locals who have to compete with that.
27   PeopleUnited   2021 Mar 13, 6:23pm  

Zak says
against mandatory income taxes


Are taxes the problem or is the way they are spent the real issue? The government should not need to collect income taxes, this is true. In fact the government has no right to even know the assets of any person.

But what we really need is to stop spending other people’s money to pad the pockets of (fill in the blank) government should be small and local and accountable to the people. Not large and federal and oppressive to the people.
28   SunnyvaleCA   2021 Mar 13, 6:51pm  

HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language

Yeah, the United States!
29   SunnyvaleCA   2021 Mar 13, 6:55pm  

PeopleUnited says
[UBI] Sounds logical on the surface. But the devil is in the details.
We're now an open-borders non-country, so:
5. Cannot afford UBI for 1 billion or more extra people.
30   HeadSet   2021 Mar 13, 7:11pm  

SunnyvaleCA says
HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language

Yeah, the United States!

¿Que?
31   PeopleUnited   2021 Mar 13, 9:13pm  

SunnyvaleCA says
PeopleUnited says
[UBI] Sounds logical on the surface. But the devil is in the details.
We're now an open-borders non-country, so:
5. Cannot afford UBI for 1 billion or more extra people.


But it’s the birthright of all foreign born persons to suckle off the American teat!
32   Patrick   2021 Mar 13, 9:36pm  

HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language.



I've also become convinced that most of the articles written about stocks on Yahoo finance are not even written by humans at all. They are just AI generated tripe, no real content, no human reporter.

But at least they get the spelling right! :-)
33   WookieMan   2021 Mar 14, 12:02pm  

A family of four, married filing jointly, making under $150k is going to get $5,600. Just given to them. Read an article where 89% of the population will get full stimulus payments, while a small fraction of that 89% will get a reduced amount capping at $160k. This is so fucked. Because of the flu?

I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined. Only 11% of the population does that? And yes I know some people own businesses and have lower income but can theoretically make more.

But for a family making $100k they're going to get 5.6% of their annual income just handed to them tax free. That's insane.
34   HeadSet   2021 Mar 14, 12:46pm  

WookieMan says
I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined.


Many "married filing jointly" are single income earners. Especially with school age children.
35   mell   2021 Mar 15, 9:39am  

WookieMan says
A family of four, married filing jointly, making under $150k is going to get $5,600. Just given to them. Read an article where 89% of the population will get full stimulus payments, while a small fraction of that 89% will get a reduced amount capping at $160k. This is so fucked. Because of the flu?

I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined. Only 11% of the population does that? And yes I know some people own businesses and have lower income but can theoretically make more.

But for a family making $100k they're going to get 5.6% of their annual income just handed to them tax free. That's insane.


Gender studies doesn't pay much. But at least you can go off on a crazed tangent once in a while and make someone's life miserable and sticking it to the white patriarchic heteronormative supremacists!
36   RC2006   2021 Mar 15, 9:48am  

Large percentage of new college grads never go beyond barista.
37   zzyzzx   2021 Mar 15, 10:01am  

WookieMan says
I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined.


I agree. But I figure that's almost nobody on this board that isn't retired.
39   Ceffer   2024 Jan 1, 11:48pm  

Patrick says





Zoo animals take Captagon, too?
40   AD   2024 Jan 31, 11:21pm  

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).
41   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Feb 1, 10:48am  

AD says

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).


Really? How come I don't get the credits then?

If it ain't universal then it ain't universal.
42   Misc   2024 Feb 3, 11:30am  

The government is trying to improve the domestic fertility rate. Raising kids is enormously expensive. The increase to the child tax credit is nowhere even close to the cost of raising a child, but it does add a little incentive for heterosexual couples to have children and marry.

Looks to me a step in the right direction.
43   HeadSet   2024 Feb 3, 2:49pm  

AD says

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).

No, that child tax credit is another form of welfare that is paid through the IRS system.
44   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Feb 3, 4:48pm  

Misc says

The government is trying to improve the domestic fertility rate. Raising kids is enormously expensive. The increase to the child tax credit is nowhere even close to the cost of raising a child, but it does add a little incentive for heterosexual couples to have children and marry.

Looks to me a step in the right direction.


How about...oh, I dunno...doing something else like fixing the root cause of the problem instead?


45   HeadSet   2024 Feb 3, 6:01pm  



Yes, because:
That car was built in Detroit
That suite was made in New York
The home radio and record player were made in Illinois
The TV was made in Ohio
The family clothes were made in North Carolina
The washing machine was made in a midwest city
The house was built with American contractors using American labor and American make materials
Even the telephone was an American made Western Electric device

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