patrick.net

Onvacation says

The Bible was written and rewritten by man.

The men who wrote the scriptures were like the guys on the assembly line following Fords blueprint. The Word of God is His blueprint.

Rubicon says

Richwicks,
Have you ever looked into the theory that the Egyptians didn’t build the pyramids and that the pyramids are much older than what mainstream historians believe? And that the purpose of pyramids was to generate energy? The concept aligns with Tesla’s research.
It’s fascinating and makes a lot more sense than Egyptians building pyramids.

It's been long speculated the pyramids are far older than what we are told, I heard this 40 years ago, and the Spinx certainly looks like it was being washed by water for a period of time.

I'm very doubtful it was some sort of energy generator - although I've heard that as well but I can't see how it could possibly generate energy or what form that would be.

Rubicon says

You probably know more about G T than I do.

Probably I don't actually. I know about it, I know it flips human history on its head and that's about it. Supposedly other similar sites have been found.

What's WEIRD is we're still finding abandoned cities in south America.

Another thing that is strange is there's S. American pyramids. I think it strongly indicates a world wide culture. There's also maps that recorded the existence of Antarctica. I don't think we have a complete understanding of our history.

PeopleUnited says

This is why the lake of fire is actually created. It would be more uncomfortable for someone who doesn’t believe God to have to live with Him for eternity

And there's always this threat in Christianity and I find it beyond annoying, it's almost abusive to teach a child that Hell exists, and you will be eternally tortured for your lack of absolute subservience.

There was a religious sect that believed that there was the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, and the Old Testament god was evil. There's compelling reasons to think this. There were one of the first victims of the Inquisition.

I cannot believe that literal creator of the Universe is so petty, so cruel, as to torture ANYTHING for ever. If I believed there was a God like that, I would oppose it.

Rubicon says

I think the main reason is we are so occupied with making money and consuming. There is no mainstream push to explore our history and mainstream historians have no interest in being proven wrong and having to re-write history books. Plus imagine Tesla was right and there is a way to produce clean energy for the masses. The people in power would never allow it. Or energy companies would just buy you out and destroy that knowledge.

The amount of energy we consume can be drastically reduced and has been. Do you have any idea how crazy it is that I can run a cell phone off from a USB port on my computer? It's a 2 way radio. Just 20 years ago, a standard television was so inefficient, it heated the room. Cars are stupidly inefficient, and could made FAR more efficient, but it requires higher tech to make them safe - basically an accident at 70 MPH is death in one of those, but you could get 150 MPG.

Rubicon says

PeopleUnited says

Rubicon says

Fear is the number one tool to control and manipulate people.

Will you take the mark of the beast when the Antichrist forces everyone to take it or lose their head by guillotine?

The only way to lose your head is being involved with religious brainwashing/manipulation and fear mongering.

Sounds like you are afraid. Afraid of taking God at His word. It is a very likely possibility that those alive today, who are not part of the catching away rescue similar to the Noah’s ark rescue, will live to see the Antichrist and know what real fear is.

richwicks says

er. If I believed there was a God like that, I would oppose it.

You do.

pudil says

The fact that Adam and Eve or Noah might not have ever literally existed takes nothing away from the main point of the Bible which is that humans are incredibly flawed, and yet God still loves us.

To make arguments that human reason can’t possibly disprove certain stories in the Bible, just purely out of defense, insults humans and insults the God who created us.

If God loves us (He does) He would not tell untrue stories.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

er. If I believed there was a God like that, I would oppose it.

You do.

Why are you so convinced your "god" is worth respecting at all? How do you know, for example, that Satan didn't compose the Bible, and THAT explains all the bloodshed and wars over religion?

You just assert it's true, you're convinced through FAITH, which for you is a virtue, for me, suspicion is a virtue. If people were more suspicious, there would be less war, there would be less criminals, there would be less evil. Because people blindly trust, we go to wars in Iraq over weapons of mass destruction and return slavery to Libya to prevent a humanitarian crisis.

You are convinced that ever other religion in the world is false, except for your religion, which you were luckily born into, and raised in.

What I would argue is that you weren't born into the right religion in all probability but you fell victim to the Asch Conformity Test where your logic and reasoning have been over-ridden by majority group opinion which you have confirmed to - you haven't agreed to it. I am never victim to the Asch Conformity Test. The most I can be pushed is to say "I don't understand why you think this", I cannot be bullied into accepting somebody else's statements as true, simple because it's socially easier to do that.

That's why, for example, I'm in a tiny minority pointing out that Ukraine's conflict began basically with the US overthrow of Ukraine, not because "Putin invaded Ukraine for NO REASON AT ALL" - which is the majority opinion, formed around propaganda.

PeopleUnited says

If God loves us (He does) He would not tell untrue stories.

Explain the Qu'ron then. Explain Roman and Greek mythology? Explain Hinduism, Shintoism, Jainism? Aren't those untrue stories? Who is telling those stories? What makes you certain the Bible is an exception?

PeopleUnited - I really hate doing this at this point. The resolution of our discussion will be either you will see my point of view or I will dismiss your point of view as irrational. I have done this hundreds of times with people. I did not become an atheist just because it was the cool hip thing to do, I was forced into it. I have spent considerable time thinking about it. When I argue this about ANY religion, it comes down to how do you know your religion is correct, and the answers are "I have faith" or "It helps me" or "It makes me a better person" - any or all of those can be true but that doesn't mean the religion is.

Rubicon says

Totally agree. It gets old and it’s pretty disgusting. I feel for people who are in these religious cults and can’t find a way out.

What a nightmare it would be to believe all this stuff. That we exist forever, that our creator is a petty jealous vindictive creature that will punish and torture us for eternity if we don't dot the i's and cross the t's. The Bible is totally unclear on what is expected of people from this entity. All in parables, Jesus was supposed to love the poor and only showed violence once with the banking system of the day.

I don't see any Christians like that, well, very rarely and I don't know any personally, and I don't trust the ones who are just "well known".

Rubicon says

He Hasn’t come yet.

When the devil has you doubting God’s word he has already won. We are on the cusp of the new world order great tribulation. I’m not afraid because I won’t be here. But during the great tribulation everyone will be faced with a choice to accept the mark of the beast or be killed. That’s not fear mongering, it is a warning for those left behind.

PeopleUnited says

But during the great tribulation everyone will be faced with a choice to accept the mark of the beast or be killed. That’s not fear mongering, it is a warning for those left behind.

Haha, I'd die first and I still wouldn't become a Christian.

This is a problem with the Christian mythology, it allows the "popular interpretations" of Revelations to implement control. Social Security was the mark of the beast, then credit cards were, then UPC symbol codes. I'm not going to have an RFID chip injected into me. Honestly, I'll probably never take a vaccine again, since they are pushing to move entirely to mRNA, and I know that doesn't work.

richwicks says

How do you know, for example, that Satan didn't compose the Bible, and THAT explains all the bloodshed and wars over religion?

When you are born again scripture takes on new meaning. The Holy Spirit both confirms and reveals the power and meaning of the words. Basically when the Spirit of God lives in you (as He indwells every born again Christian since Pentecost) and you are listening to the Spirit, it is the ultimate BS meter.richwicks says

You are convinced that ever other religion in the world is false, except for your religion, which you were luckily born into, and raised in.

Actually no, I grew up in a counterfeit Christianity just like you. I no longer have fellowship with the people of the church in which I was saved (they had cultish characteristics elevating the minister above the Holy Spirit and I left) and my family also disagrees with my theology which is quite different from their upbringing. But the word of God found its way into my heart anyway, and it has made all the difference. Every religion including “Christian” religion is wrong, if it puts salvation in doing works, keeping laws, being faithful or making sacrifices. Salvation comes from hearing the word of God. It’s that simple, you hear it, acknowledge your need and that God can provide it, and accept it (turning away from your previous path or whatever it was that you put between yourself and God and turn towards the Lord).

richwicks says

I'm in a tiny minority pointing out that Ukraine's conflict began basically with the US overthrow of Ukraine, not because

I also know that the west globalists started this war (not just the US).

I’m in a tiny minority who does not go to church, does not give donations, does not recite creeds but does know for certain that if I were to die today or in 20 years God has care of my soul and eternal destiny. That is true freedom. That’s why they call it Liberty in Christ.

richwicks says

What makes you certain the Bible is an exception?

When the Spirit of God lives in you counterfeits are obvious. It’s a Spiritual thing. When Adam sinned he immediately died spiritually, but when we accept the gift of God in Jesus we are born again immediately with the Spirit. If you have never experienced this, it is beyond your comprehension. Christianity is a spiritual thing, not just intellectual. And even a child can be born again, when they are mature enough to understand the gospel (good news). It seems irrational because you are missing the Spirit of God. There is a God shaped hole in your heart that the Spirit of God can fill. Really. He. Can.

Onvacation says

PeopleUnited says

if any of the Bible is untrue, then God is a liar

The Bible was written and rewritten by man.

It is what it is.

So when Jesus told parables then he was a liar? The story of the prodigal son doesn’t lose any meaning just because he never existed. The point is the lesson. Just because the people who handed down the most ancient stories of the Bible verbally for thousands of years didn’t include that Adam and Eve or Noah were parables in some bonus commentary doesn’t make them liars.

richwicks says

When I argue this about ANY religion, it comes down to how do you know your religion is correct, and the answers are "I have faith" or "It helps me" or "It makes me a better person" - any or all of those can be true but that doesn't mean the religion is.

I disagree. With Christianity you can actually read the New Testament which tells the story about the life and death of Jesus. His life is about the best documented historical event that has ever happened, so you should believe it if you believe anything historical. Then you can compare his life to what was predicted in the Old Testament and see that it was the fulfillment of 4000 years of prophecy.

All the other religions I’ve looked at are either made up stories about things that never existed (Rama, Zeus, etc). Or they are just spin-offs of Christianity (Islam, Mormans), which just go to show the strength of the foundation of the religion.

PeopleUnited says

When the Spirit of God lives in you counterfeits are obvious. It’s a Spiritual thing. When Adam sinned he immediately died spiritually, but when we accept the gift of God in Jesus we are born again immediately with the Spirit.

This is what I'd consider a simulacrum - it's when a simulation of something substitutes for the real thing. So you could say "I have a soul", but I would just counter, "that's your mind, it acts as a soul".

This just doesn't ring true to me, and I don't want to argue about it anymore. You can't "feel" your way to truth. It's a rigorous process of elimination and that's what it really is, you can't know anything "true" so much as you can know everything else is false, and what is left is PROBABLY true.

Something I resent is how much bullshit I was taught as a kid only to figure out it wasn't true. Wasted my time. I think I have unlearned just about everything that was untrue. At least I have that.

pudil says

I disagree. With Christianity you can actually read the New Testament which tells the story about the life and death of Jesus. His life is about the best documented historical event that has ever happened, so you should believe it if you believe anything historical.

Find a Roman document about his execution. They kept good records. I can believe it would have been falsified by now. Christianity didn't take off immediately, basically all the apostles were dead before it did, I think like 100 to 200 years after, it's been a while - I no longer know.

I believe some man like this existed, but I think what we know of him is more legend than fact. He has some traits with various roman gods, and even Hercules.

I really don't want to argue about this. I told you it was pointless many times.

richwicks says

Find a Roman document about his execution. They kept good records. I can believe it would have been falsified by now.

Why do I have to do this? All the best records of Jesus’s existence are included in the Bible. You have multiple narratives from different authors that were recorded within the lifetime of the people who knew Jesus. These writing weren’t corrupted, the original Greek is still available if you’d like to attempt your own translation. Finally, if this was a giant conspiracy to trick everyone, these guys were more dedicated then any cultists I’m aware of since all of them were martyrs except John.

You can’t go and say that there was a historical Jesus but then claim the writings about him were corrupted. Why don’t you show me the Roman records of Jesus’s non miraculous life since their records were so good?

Your position shows your fear. You can’t deny the historical reality of Jesus, yet you can’t handle if he actually said what he said and did what he did. So instead you claim the writings about him were corrupted, which is laughable.

pudil says

All the other religions I’ve looked at are either made up stories about things that never existed (Rama, Zeus, etc). Or they are just spin-offs of Christianity (Islam, Mormans), which just go to show the strength of the foundation of the religion.

Religion is a by product of the evolution. God is made by man. Religions are made on demand and supply. Look at Scientology, Woke for recent examples.
LOL! The best proof of god so far is, one has to die to see him! I really like this gas lighting technique! Every other "proof" is part of creating confusion for their victims!
In reality, religion is all about take advantage of unsuspected folks while socializing, commit heinous, violent crimes with no prison time, stealing money by making exceptions in tax code in developed countries at best and making lot of slaves all over.
But there is one advantage with religious people like @richwicks said, they act like a opposing force to the commie corrupt governments.

Nah, you atheist dimwits are trying to change the subject and I’m not falling for it :)

I’m 3 drinks in and trying to watch the acclaimed film fast and furious 7 so I’ll just save some time and give you something to chew on.

Did Jesus exist or not? If you say not then you are basically making the same argument as PeopleUnited that you can’t rely on human methods of reasoning unless you personally witness something happen. Again, his life is one of the best documented things ever historically recorded. Take it or leave it.

So if you are at the point of at least conceding he existed, then let’s ignore all the miracles he was reported to have done and just focus on what he said. He said he was God, he said no one could get to heaven except through him, he said he was dying as a sacrifice for our sins. Now we are in CS Lewis territory. Either he was a liar, lunatic, or Lord. He wasn’t crazy, he invented a new moral framework that lives on to this day. He wasn’t a liar, no one can preach such a message consistently and be full of shit. That just leaves lord.

pudil says

Why do I have to do this? All the best records of Jesus’s existence are included in the Bible. You have multiple narratives from different authors that were recorded within the lifetime of the people who knew Jesus.

Or it could have been a single author, where the tales were passed down orally for decades, and the authors ended up with different names which would explain the SIMILARITIES of the Gospels, but there are differences between them.

pudil says

These writing weren’t corrupted, the original Greek is still available if you’d like to attempt your own translation.

The originals would be in Aramaic, not Greek.pudil says

Finally, if this was a giant conspiracy to trick everyone, these guys were more dedicated then any cultists I’m aware of since all of them were martyrs except John.

Dude, I'm an expert on conspiracies.

pudil says

You can’t go and say that there was a historical Jesus but then claim the writings about him were corrupted.

Why not?

pudil says

Why don’t you show me the Roman records of Jesus’s non miraculous life since their records were so good?

Because he was nobody of note. Millions of people lived and died under Roman rule, who are not recorded.

pudil says

Your position shows your fear. You can’t deny the historical reality of Jesus, yet you can’t handle if he actually said what he said and did what he did. So instead you claim the writings about him were corrupted, which is laughable.

I just don't believe it. Grimm's Fairy tales have altered story elements and different endings at times.

I don't want to upset your faith. There's just no point. If this was me 15 years ago, I'd not be as nice at all. There's no point in making you question your faith and I don't want to do it.

I don't know what you're talking about with "my fear". My morality is almost, if not entirely, compatible with Christianity. What would I have to lose? I'll tell y you, my reason and I just can't just leave that. You simply don't understand how I came to this place.

Whatever created me, created my ability to reason. I have an obligation to use that.

pudil says

things that never existed (Rama, Zeus, etc)

I have not read it but there is a book Called Return of the gods, written by a Christian author who speculates the ancient gods are real beings, except that they are demons who will one day return to deceive people in the end times.

Jesus pudil says

Just because the people who handed down the most ancient stories of the Bible verbally for thousands of years didn’t include that Adam and Eve or Noah were parables

They weren’t parables. Try reading Luke 3:23-38.

richwicks says

Explain the Qu'ron then.

The Vatican invented Islam, and trained its founder, that is why it is so similar to Catholicism with the Mary stuff and other similarities. Heck, the pope is even good friends with and building interfaith coalition with Islam.

The other mythological gods may not be entirely myths, Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and demons have dwelled on the earth since the fall of man. Those ancient mythology gods might be real demons who really did supernatural things and really did interbreed with women and interact with men. In the end times the whole world will be deceived by Satan’s lies which could likely include stories of aliens and/or demonically enhanced AI that is billed as a prophet, priest and king.

Rubicon says

But what made god and what was his origin?

The God of Moses said I Am sent him. God is. He created time so nothing predates Him, He just is.

Rubicon says

And he doesn’t (tell us untrue stories). Man does. Man has written and re-written the Bible.

Oh please, the God who spoke the universe into existence is perfectly capable of preserving the true Word of God for eternity, just as He promised. He is God y’know!

Rubicon says

If the world - according to the Bible - is only 6,000 years old how does that align with the ice age, with foot prints (carbon dates back to 20,000 years ago) or excavation of ancient sites that date back to 9500-8000 BC (like Göbekli Tepe)?

@Rubicon Just from statistics, given that human civilization has arisen independently many times, I have to assume that pre-human civilization also has.

I'm still waiting, but would not be surprised to find out that some dinosaurs had, for example, metalworking. Maybe the "London Hammer" is real.

https://www.historicmysteries.com/the-london-hammer/

The Antikythera Mechanism also proved that highly precise gears existed many centuries earlier than previously thought.

Rubicon says

Well said.
What I can’t wrap my head around is where Does anything come from. Why does anything exist? The only explanation is a god. But what made god and what was his origin?
What’s your thought on this?

As I have mentioned in message id 107, in this thread. Its an issue with the fundamental thinking process. Be happy and save time, as no answer will help you since you already have the conclusions. If you are really open and interested, you can find that stuff online that you can come out of that logic hole.

richwicks says

The Israeli / Palestinian conflict is NOT over religion. It's over land. Religion is the excuse we are given. It's basically two ethnic groups

Northern Ireland is the exact same situation.

It was never about Catholic vs Protestant. It is a fight over the land by two ethnic groups. Religion is just a marker for which side one is on.

Patrick says

Maybe the "London Hammer" is real.

https://www.historicmysteries.com/the-london-hammer/

Wood that got embedded into rock?

Noooo....

They won't allow the wood to be carbon dated. That's a hoax. Wood couldn't survive in the extremes where rock is formed.

Patrick says

The Antikythera Mechanism

Thanks for sharing, I had to show a picture of the recreation, it is classic thanks to the guy with the pipe.

Patrick says

human civilization has arisen independently many times

After the Tower of Babel incident different cultures arose independently due to language barriers and subsequent isolation. https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/cavemen/how-are-cavemen-different/

PeopleUnited says

After the Tower of Babel incident different cultures arose independently due to language barriers and subsequent isolation. https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/cavemen/how-are-cavemen-different/

Why don't other cultures contain this supposed history?

And consider Latin, everybody spoke Latin in the Roman empire yet that language developed into French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian.

It's just a parable. Languages develop naturally especially when the population is largely illiterate.

Strangely this is reversing now. You can even hear it today. When I first heard British English it was barely comprehensible to me, but today not at all. If I listen to and old English broadcast the difficulty reappears somewhat. Global communication is making a single language appear slowly.

It might be English that becomes "the one" if we don't destroy civilization.

Patrick says

"The Antikythera Mechanism also proved that highly precise gears existed many centuries earlier than previously thought."

The Antikythera Mechanism is an analog computer from 2,000 years ago with a remarkable accuracy in predicting astronomical phenomena...

mummies escaped from the other once, duh!!!

PeopleUnited says

Sounds like you are afraid. Afraid of taking God at His word.

You are either mistaken or purposely straw-manning at this point.

What you call "the word of God" - the Bible - we don't believe for a moment is the word of God. You keep insisting this is "the word of God", well, no it isn't. If would be like I kept saying that Dianetics was the word of god, and if you didn't accept it, well, that's just your fear of accepting the truth, and insisting this over and over and over again.

richwicks says

Why don't other cultures contain this history?

Um, they do. Actually many diverse cultures have traditions that tell of the time when people all spoke one language but one day all of a sudden they were unable to understand one another. https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/tongue-twisting-tales/

God did this to cause them to migrate and fill the entire planet.

richwicks says

What you call "the word of God" - the Bible - we don't believe for a moment is the word of God. You keep insisting this is "the word of God", well, no it isn't.

Of course it is, it is the best selling book of all time for good reason. One day soon He will return just as He promised. That fact that you scoff at this is prophecy fulfilled and proof that many will be afraid at His reappearance.

PeopleUnited says

Um, they do. Actually many diverse cultures have traditions that tell of the time when people all spoke one language but one day all of a sudden they were unable to understand one another.

They are missing Hindu, Confucianism, and Shintoism. That's like 1/2 the world.PeopleUnited says

Of course it is, it is the best selling book of all time for good reason.

Yeah, the West invented the Gutenberg press, making book duplication inexpensive and easy. Of course, the RCC fought against that.

PeopleUnited says

That fact that you scoff at this is prophecy fulfilled and proof that many will be afraid at His reappearance.

I don't "scoff at it". I just don't believe it.

richwicks says

What you call "the word of God" - the Bible - we don't believe for a moment is the word of God. You keep insisting this is "the word of God", well, no it isn't. If would be like I kept saying that Dianetics was the word of god, and if you didn't accept it, well, that's just your fear of accepting the truth, and insisting this over and over and over again.

Well, I only said it once, but if you are not afraid as you claim, then you are by your own testimony, unbelieving. Both the fearful and unbelieving, well they have the same fate.

But if you are not afraid, like yoga said:

Rubicon says

“One day soon He will return”

Any day now! this has been taught for centuries.

“many will be afraid at His reappearance.”

Of course, can’t finish a sentence without cramping some more fear mongering in.

Scoffing will get you about as much enjoyment as skydiving without a parachute. Where is the promise of His coming? All things continue as they were from the beginning right?

I’m not fear mongering, I’m just giving you your daily affirmation, after all you have nothing to fear do you?

Rubicon says

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

What you call "the word of God" - the Bible - we don't believe for a moment is the word of God. You keep insisting this is "the word of God", well, no it isn't. If would be like I kept saying that Dianetics was the word of god, and if you didn't accept it, well, that's just your fear of accepting the truth, and insisting this over and over and over again.

Well, I only said it once, but if you are not afraid as you claim, then you are by your own testimony, unbelieving. Both the fearful and unbelieving, well they have the same fate.

But if you are not afraid, like yoga said:

YAAWN

So what do you believe padawan?