patrick.net

Onvacation says

The vax is not about protecting people. The vax might not kill millions. It's about population control.

This. And a site like this can potentially inform people of their delusion. I'd allow pro-vaxxers because they're ultimately wrong from the word go. There are a few exceptions, but Covid won't kill you. There are a few people that should get the vax in all honesty. It might help to prolong their life an extra year or so before they ultimately will get covid. It's a new flu strain. No biggie.

So as OV says, this is more of a mind/population control game. We need to defeat it in anyway possible and discussing with people here on Patnet is one small avenue to do so. I don't know how many lurk and never post, but I know a lot come here and read this shit. Converting even 5 people is of value. We can't do that if we don't discuss it and ban it.

I say let the pro-vaxxers post and we discuss/argue our points. The pro-vaxxers are not on solid ground at all. Just ask anyone would they take something not approved by the FDA, with no animal trials. People don't understand or know about this. The news sure as shit isn't reporting. So I say let the pro-vaxxers be and we can just put them in their place...

WookieMan says

I say let the pro-vaxxers post and we discuss/argue our points. The pro-vaxxers are not on solid ground at all. Just ask anyone would they take something not approved by the FDA, with no animal trials. People don't understand or know about this. The news sure as shit isn't reporting. So I say let the pro-vaxxers be and we can just put them in their place...

Yep. If you start censoring vaxxers it could be cause for the vaxxers censoring Patrick.net.

clambo says

What if I think it's worth the risk, like riding a motorcycle or surfing winter waves, or scuba diving in Carmel?

You absolutely have that right.

What if I want to say it’s fun and worth the trouble?
“Try it, you’ll like it”

Did you know that patients in the hospital can decline food and water? I've worked with a few like that in our VA Hospice. Typically older veterans who want to pass away peacefully.

I've been "poked." Twice. I'm sure my mandatory flu shot is coming up in a few months. I also have to wear full PPE. I work with patients.

And another thing, it's FUN to refute idiots spouting propaganda. I can't do that in real life.

Seems like most people want this site to stay as free speech as possible. I agree with that, but then we have to deal with the dishonest trolls. Is there some middle ground? Like only honest arguments/discussions allowed about vaccines? There has never been a more relevant topic to discuss, and never has such a topic been so life or death for people. Tempers and emotions are bound to run high. Personally I feel that the “jab” is poison and people who submit to it are ending their own lives prematurely. I believe that the entire Plandemic was set up to promote these mRNA vaccines (and those alone) and the reasons for doing so are entirely sinister. I’m not sure if it’s a population sterilizing event or if the globalists are planning to pull a massive trigger that kills off billions who’ve been vaxxed. Either way it’s bad shit and these people promoting it are the evilest people alive.

OK, really it was their hostile tone on top of government demands that put me over the edge.

So now all UC and CSU schools are demanding that all students submit to the jab when we know that exactly such "vaccinations" are creating and spreading the variants:

https://patrick.net/post/1340326/2021-07-28-nobel-prize-winner-in-every-country-the

MAGA says

Did you know that patients in the hospital can decline food and water? I've worked with a few like that in our VA Hospice. Typically older veterans who want to pass away peacefully.

Can they decline the clot shot?

Sorry Patrick, but in my view, you are becoming what you hate.

I spoke my piece earlier on why I thought the vaccine while not 100% safe, was a better alternative. I tried to use logical statistics, I agreed with the people posting stories and numbers of vaccine deaths and injuries, and tried to show that despite this, the vaccine was still the better option.

I didn't use propaganda, fear tactics, etc. I didn't tell people they were terrible people for not getting the vaccine. I said I thought they should do it, but it was their right not to. I used people's ESTIMATES at the high end of death and injury from the vaccine, and compared it across all age groups to show that it (while unsafe) is still a better alternative than getting covid.

I used logic and reason apart from the news or politics to try to engage in conversation to see if the information coming out was right or wrong. We talked about the vaccine and the virus both generating spike protein, and how the virus does it in an uncontrolled and contagious manner. This is logically consistent with the spike protein causing vaccine deaths, but even greater virus deaths.

The responses were often unhinged. "Death jab" isn't exactly a term used to invoke a logical response, rather an emotional one.

Rudyard Kipling has a poem named if. My favorite line from that poem is the opening:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

Patrick: if you want me to go, it was nice to engage here on patnet. But I encourage you to keep your head. Remember that it is hardest to listen to someone with whom you disagree and think is being disingenuous. Hold your ground on your vaccine beliefs! Sure!

But never give in to say you think censorship of others ideas is the way to go...

Edit:
I do not support the people on the vax side trying to use propaganda to influence either. I encourage you to keep pointing out the flawed logic and emotional appeals from people on the "vaxxer" side . Perhaps you should consider a moderated debate where the more even handed arguments from both side could be refined and compared/contrasted point by point.

richwicks says

I object to that. I hate it when people lie to me, knowing they are lying to me. I have a strong distaste for propagandists and trolls. They are easy to identify for me, but I don't like endless argument.

The ignore button is a good option. I can usually figure out when someone isn't interested in discussion and just wants to argue. But here, what's the point? Go to reddit, or facebook. You can flame all day on those sites.

Even in a genuine discussion at some point I usually get tired of talking about it, or feel that I've said my piece and move on.

Patrick says

In the face of overwhelming levels of misinformation from media and government about the safety of the jab, there needs to be some place people can go to avoid the vax trolls and honestly discuss the clear and very large dangers.

I thought that's what the ignore option was for. Coupled with the human brain, and some common sense, I think people will find there way.

Shaman says

Like only honest arguments/discussions allowed about vaccines?

So you want a Truth Panel? Maybe even a ministry..?

It's not the same, because 99.999% of the media is all SUBMIT TO THE DEATH JAB YOU IGNORANT SELFISH PLEBE!

It is they who are the Ministry of Truth.

This site is less than 0.0001% of the media, a rare exception to the Ministry of Truth.

Zak says

The responses were often unhinged. "Death jab" isn't exactly a term used to invoke a logical response, rather an emotional one.

Referring to something as a "vaccine", when it isn't actually a vaccine is rightly so interpretated as the propaganda that it is. Now Death jab or clot shot are at least accurate euphemisms.

Patrick says

It's not the same, because 99.999% of the media is all SUBMIT TO THE DEATH JAB YOU IGNORANT SELFISH PLEBE!

You're not wrong. If people want to inject themselves with something our own government doesn't technically approve of, so be it. Trolls come in all forms. This site will be called an echo chamber by some. This really is no different than the abortion topic besides it not involving human life.

Get the shot. It supposedly protects you. What is your concern if I get it or not? As I've said in other comments, the proponents of vaccination are not standing on solid ground to force it upon us that don't want to get vaccinated. We should be calling it a novel vaccine, that's what it is. These things sometimes take 3-10 years to prove. This happened in 7 months under circumstances that are suspicious at best and likely nefarious and profiteering.

If vaxxers are too dumb to acknowledge that, we need to put them on notice. Even Bitcoin, a user I disagree with on crypto was honest enough to say the vax fucked him up after pumping it for a few weeks. Which I appreciate the change of mind and hope his health is well. Even one person changing sides/minds on something like this matters. That won't happen if you dump them Patrick.

WookieMan says

Even Bitcoin, a user I disagree with on crypto was honest enough to say the vax fucked him up after pumping it for a few weeks. Which I appreciate the change of mind and hope his health is well.

Not only that, but he's also gotten my memo on the Beavis & Butthead M.O. of the health care providers who know nothing about supplements and how to treat day-to-day issues.

Zak says

"Death jab" isn't exactly a term used to invoke a logical response, rather an emotional one.

Fair enough. But calling the Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca injections "vaccines" is also propaganda, as the term "vaccine" falsely associates those injections with proven real vaccines of the past like vaccines for polio, measles, and mumps. The Johnson &Johnson is a true one shot vaccine. Maybe we need a non-partisan but still honest term for the Pfizer-Moderna-AstraZenica shots. perhaps "mRNA Injections." Maybe even "EmI" for "Experimental mRNA Injection."

Patrick says

It's not the same, because 99.999% of the media is all SUBMIT TO THE DEATH JAB YOU IGNORANT SELFISH PLEBE!

disagree here. 99.999% of MSM argue for covid shots, but on internet tubes one can find quite a few places which are anti-covid shots or show problems associated with them.

It would be bad if Patnet would turn into complete circlejerk echo chamber. The highest user engagement is in threads when there is someone arguing against the dearly held beliefs of most Patnetters. As Nuttboxer says, people disagreeing with me (Threebays, Donald, etc) force me to check facts and statistics, challenge my assumptions, and make me sharpen my argument skills. This is absolutely fine, and lets not be snowflakes, even if there is some trolling.

clambo says

I experienced no effects after my Moderna shots

My only side effect after J&J covid shot was COVID!!!

HeadSet says

But calling the Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca injections "vaccines" is also propaganda

I think your objection to normalizing the word vaccine for these shots is a fair objection. On the other hand, an injection intended to invoke an immune response to prevent a high colonization rate for a virus causing you to become ill doesn't fall TOO far outside the scope of the word. Its like calling the accelerator pedal in an electric car the gas pedal. But you do make a fair point. But "Death jab" might not so closely align?

I mean really.. am I being unreasonable when I say this stuff?

I hope I can ask a fair question to those in the "jab" camp.

For scope, lets limit this to the USA.

How many deaths do you believe have been caused by the jab?

How many deaths do you believe have been caused by Covid?

Extra credit: breakdown by decile age group

Zak says

How many deaths do you believe have been caused by Covid?

this data point is really, really difficult to come by.

To be fair. I will put up my own beliefs, so you can knock my info down as well.

I believe somewhere between 5,000 and 45,000 people have died so far from side effects of "getting the jab"

I believe over 500,000 people have died from Covid. but possibly as low as 400,000 or as high as 600,00-700,000 .

I don't remember where or why I got the data, but I believe over 60% of deaths are above age 50, and its probably higher.
I believe almost no one under age 30 is dying of covid.

This leads me to believe that the vaccine is about 10-100 times as safe to get as getting covid.

That's it. Its not totally safe.. it just seems safer than getting covid.

Also, 500,000 people out of 300 million is 1 in 600, or less that .5% . So yes, I believe there is a 99.5% chance that if you don't get vaccinated you wont die.
I also think there is a 99.95% chance that if you get the vaccine you wont die.

I think injuries from either the jab or the virus are probably 10x the death rate, and tapering in severity, as with any other virus.

I also believe that the jab limits the spread/transmissibility of the virus. I believe it does this by lowering the viral load and therefore shedding of people whose immune system has been prepped to fight it.

Anecdotal data, as well as aggregate data I have seen seems to be consistent with these numbers. The propaganda that I see tends to avoid using numbers and wildly exaggerates in one direction or the other based on the motive of the reporter.

I actually think I am under-reacting to the danger of mass deaths caused by the shot.

If we don't see mass deaths, injuries, or sterility in a few years, I'll reconsider.

Hell, I think pretty much everyone is under-reacting to this immense danger.

Zak says

I believe over 500,000 people have died from Covid. but possibly as low as 400,000 or as high as 600,00-700,000 .

I believe these numbers are suspect for the following reasons: (1) there was nearly no flu reported last year, so it is very likely that at least some of flu deaths/illnesses were attributed to covid, and (2) average age of Italians dying from covid was 81 last year, but average age of Italians dying from all causes were 80. This is difficult to explain assuming that there is nothing wrong with statistics (as in attaching covid deaths to other causes of death).

These types of difficulties with statistics is the reason why I am at this point open to either possibility with vaccines. If I'd trust gubbermint statistics, i'd trust vaccines. I don't trust govt stats (they have been lying too much) so I have a mildly negative attitude towards these vaccines.

Patrick says

I actually think I am under-reacting to the danger of mass deaths caused by the shot.

I keep trying to ask this, but what is it about the shot that you think is MORE dangerous than Covid? (i.e. preservatives, difference you've seen in death stats, mRNA jab in your system vs virus DNA) . I 100% understand not trusting "the official story". Which means go to thinking for yourself. But that's what I am asking.. what is the evidence that you are using for the thinking for yourself part that is showing you the danger of the jab being higher than the virus?

Edit:

I am NOT saying there is no danger for the jab. I am asking, GIVEN that there IS danger from the jab, what is the evidence you see that this danger is GREATER than the danger the virus is causing?

The first thing is that I now know someone I'm pretty sure died from the shot, but don't know anyone who died from the disease.

Just one data point, but death is a big data point.

If I start hearing of more vaxxed people I know suddenly dying, I'll be more certain.

Zak says

This leads me to believe that the vaccine is about 10-100 times as safe to get as getting covid.

That's it. Its not totally safe.. it just seems safer than getting covid.

This may be true, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence at all, that it protects people from getting "covid".

If it gives people immunity, why would the vaccinated care if other people are vaccinated or not?

So, maybe you are far less likely to die from the "vaccine", but it's not a vaccine and doesn't confer immunity. If it doesn't confer immunity, why the fuck would I want to get an injection that, at BEST, does nothing and at worst, injures and even possibly kills me?

I see absolutely no indication these vaccines are effective. They aren't 90% effective for certain. There's some claims they are 40% effective, but if I try to discuss this on a normie website, I fucking get censored. The fact I get censored, raises 10 red flags alone. That fact our government is THREATENING people to force them to get it raises 20 red flags. Since when did this fucking government give two shits about the health and safety of the public? They let Antifa and BLM burn loot and murder all over the nation for 9 fucking months.

If the vaccine was effective, they'd have the Federal Reserve print up a trillion dollars, give it to the vaccine manufacturer to keep the cure secret, and take it themselves, and keep it from the public.

Do you know NOBODY in Congress had any side effects from taking the vaccine? That's because none of them took the vaccine. There's more than 500 people in congress, and not ONE of them had any problems. Well, my neighbor got it, she had diarrhea and muscle pain for 3 weeks. Bitcoin says he's having some issues as a result. Jimmy Dore had problems for more than a month. Another radio show host named Michael Rivero said he had side effects for several days. Hank Aaron is dead, Eric Claptop worried he'd never be able to play again.

But NOBODY in Congress had any issue. They didn't take it.

Name a single celebrity (of any sort, that includes politicians) that have died of this disease? Any entertainer die of sars-cov2-19? Any US politicians? Any athlete? Yet, supposedly, we have a pandemic. Well, I doubt it. Sure plenty of people CLAIM to have become sick from it, but they are actors. Tom Hanks claimed to be ill, I doubt he was. He was just playing a part for a few days. Our biggest propagandists, are actors. Got a step down, those are "news anchors". Chris Cuomo claimed to have had it and said he was going to sequester himself in quarantine in his basement, but he was caught outside by a biker in the Hamptons which was during the time he was supposedly in quarantine.

We can, and have, seen people lie about having this disease, repeatedly.

HeadSet says

falsely associates those injections with proven real vaccines of the past like vaccines for polio, measles, and mumps.

Actually, I take issue with proven. Testing without a control means baselining is done by big pharma reps overseeing the study.

Patrick says

Just one data point, but death is a big data point.

So for those of us who do know people who have died of Covid, but not of the shot, do you think that we would have a different, and likely opposite viewpoint that isn't propaganda?

And to see if we are all acting logically, we should try to look at wider numbers to see what is statistically a better choice?

richwicks says

but there doesn't seem to be any evidence at all, that it protects people from getting "covid".

Instead of beating down this number or that, I simply asked that you put up what you think people are dying from, and in what numbers. If you don't put up the numbers you believe, then how can you make an informed decision?

If you are saying that people with the shot are still getting covid.. what number of people do you think this is ? (I don't think it's happening, I KNOWit's happening, and have seen reported cases.. I just see a very low number here)

Rather than attacking the premise. I am asking you all to simply put up the numbers you believe. Please feel free to put up your reasons why or sources.

We can talk about anecdotes all over the place and that is useless. What is your belief on how many people are dying in group a vs group b?

Zak says

This leads me to believe that the vaccine is about 10-100 times as safe to get as getting covid.

That's it. Its not totally safe.. it just seems safer than getting covid.

I think you're leaving out something very important. You say you believe it's safer than getting Covid for those over 50, correct? You have to separate into yet another category(s). Is it safer for healthy 50 year olds with no comorbidities? How about 50 year olds that had HCQ or ivermectin given to them? Do not forget there are prophylaxis available making the while jab requirement total bullshit. Hell, they're even trying to say natural immunity isn't as good as the jab. When does this nonsense end? The lies and turning science back by over 100 years and all? You're being gaslit.

Taking a page from SumatraBosch: since nearly everyone dying from covid has co-morbidities, with the most common being overweight, how about Biden screaming from TV every day 24/7: YOU UGLY FAT DISGUSTING PIG! GET FIT OR YOU WILL DIE FROM COVID AND I WILL RAPE YOUR DECOMPOSING SKULL!

This may be more efficient than DEATH! JAB!

And finally, the reason I am asking you this is not to DISPROVE you ! If you have better information than me, then I will update my actions! You guys seem very sure about your analysis of this situation. Great! If you have a safer path, show me the numbers you think are dying of Covid vs the shot.

If you say zero are dying of Covid, then I will ignore you as I do personally know people dead from Covid. I don't personally know anyone dead from the shot, but I sympathize with Patrick who does know someone likely dead from the shot, and it would be insulting for me to say no one is dying from the shot.

As we have no "over lording" power over people to take or not-take jab.. why censorship?
Just tell how you feel. I personally don't think "jab" is death sentence but also likely to have long term effects.
... How do I know? Just by hearing both sides of the story as have no formal education in medicine or pharmaceuticals.

Bd6r says

I believe these numbers are suspect for the following reasons

I appreciate that you think these numbers are incorrect. What numbers do you think are correct, and why?
I thought 400k on the low side to account for some of this regular flu stuff possibly incorrectly reported as covid.
To me this is still 10x greater than the potentially 45k high side number of shot deaths.

This is how I look at things. What is the data. If the data appears fudged, how can I best estimate that data on my own. If I just say I don't know, i don't know in trying to quantify anything, then we are just in useless land, and wasting our breath.