patrick.net

As a faculty at a large school I can say the following...

1. Education these days is worth what you pay for it only in specific fields, and even there payoff gets smaller. It is worth going to university only if you are very interested in few specific subjects - engineering or few hard sciences. Some premed tracks are OK also, if student is interested in this type of career. Not pharmacy any more though. Even with med schools situation is rapidly becoming such that only few disciplines are financially OK. A family practitioner will not earn much and will be in debt to gills. Other than that, university is a place where young people form their business/political etc networks, which is important, but then student needs to go to the best public university in state (OSU in this case) or an elite private university.

2. Graduate studies in fields that matter (most engineering disciplines, chemistry, biochemistry, etc) are not only free, they pay you a small stipend of about 25-30K/year. I would pick discipline where outsourcing to China is difficult.

3. Accumulating 100K debt at any university is preposterous and absolutely not worth it. Make calculations how much you will owe, how much you will earn after your studies, and if your debt is more than a realistic one years' salary after graduation, do something else.

Accounting is worth it as well. No need to spend a fortune on it though.

Accounting is a great major for people who don't know what to do with themselves. It's 6th grade math and some financial, tax, and inventory valuaton terms. You can work in any field you like. Banking? AP at Midstate Office Supply? The ASPCA? Home office of a Chain of Liquor Stores? Or work for the IRS or a Tax Prep office for a few years, esp. for small business/wealthier clients and go off on your own and do income tax prep. The latter is a business you can start as a hobby with a half dozen clients and grow into 100s and move to full time.

PeopleUnited says

Do something you are passionate about and do it better (work harder) than anyone else. A degree is fine but it is more about who you know and what you can do, so networking and actual skills are much more useful than a diploma.

Wow, dislike on this post? How about a counter argument?

Rb6d says

As a faculty at a large school I can say the following...

1. Education these days is worth what you pay for it only in specific fields, and even there payoff gets smaller. It is worth going to university only if you are very interested in few specific subjects - engineering or few hard sciences. Some premed tracks are OK also, if student is interested in this type of career. Not pharmacy any more though. Even with med schools situation is rapidly becoming such that only few disciplines are financially OK. A family practitioner will not earn much and will be in debt to gills. Other than that, university is a place where young people form their business/political etc networks, which is important, but then student needs to go to the best public university in state (OSU in this case) or an elite private university.

2. Graduate studies in fields that matter (most engineering disciplines, chemistry, biochemistry, etc) are not only free, they pay you a small stipend of about 25...

Which engineering branches, hard sciences and premed tracks are worth it? Which branch of computer science, electronics or communication engineering are worth it in the long run? Will try our best to avoid debt.

100% agree that 100k is too much. I highly recommend the community college + transfer + work during, even though GPA will likely suffer. I've never had a job interviewer ask me my GPA. And although California is nice, remember the in-state vs out of state tuition rates are quite different. I was too poor to do it, but if a parent can help, it sure seems like a semester abroad would also be an amazing experience.

Drinking/partying is also a huge part of the college experience. Rather than trying to shelter your kids from all forms of underage drinking, I'd actually encourage you to have some home (family only) parties where drinking is allowed. You can teach and monitor on how to pace yourself, how to recognize when you're too drunk (and may be getting drunker despite stopping drinking), how to recognize when a friend is getting too drunk, etc. Also, maybe a fun, but instructive way of experiencing how judgement can be impaired.

Basically, my hope for my kids is not that they will never have a drink when in college, but that they will be responsible and have fun while staying safe. To me, that's a skill, and one best learned under safe supervision. It's actually kind of too bad that colleges don't have a partying 101 class.

There is always the temptation when mentoring to go all fake sanctimonious about hard work and merit.

Sociologists did a study, and they found that young people didn't listen to OldFucks, they took their cues from their often idiotically short sighted, hyperactive, and misguided peers, so anything an OldFuck tells a YoungFuck will have limited effect.

Unfortunately, my advice would be find a way to work a good con exploiting the insane, hypocritical bureaucratic idiocies and inconsistencies of the system. Learn to ride the wave.

It may be amoral, but more realistic and politic as a path to some sort of ragged success and self perpetuation.

gabbar says

Which engineering branches, hard sciences and premed tracks are worth it? Which branch of computer science, electronics or communication engineering are worth it in the long run? Will try our best to avoid debt.

I know very little about computer sciences and electronics. Perhaps some other Patnetter might have more information.

About engineering - chemical, civil, electrical, industrial, mechanical, and petroleum have been goods bets so far. Downside: attrition rate is really high (in our school, only ca. 10% of ChemE students graduate with a degree, which is good as you don't want refineries exploding), and nearly all disciplines are extremely heavy in math. Chem and petroleum are somewhat cyclical, but petroleum has the highest staring salaries AFAIK. MS in engineering typically gives salaries that you get with a PhD in exact sciences.

Medical track - I am less familiar, but physicians assistants are in vogue now. Relatively little schooling and high salaries, and jobs are portable. For med school, some specialties are fine, some not. Surgeons will be doing great, family practitioners not so much. Downside - very long schooling, med school + residency, and you will be in middle 30's when you start earning big bucks, and in 40's when you are school debt free (if you are lucky). Pharmacy is out - salaries are dropping.

Exact sciences - worse prospects than in engineering so should be done only if you really like the field. Chemistry, computer sciences, geosciences are fine. There are subfields in each discipline which are better or worse.

Bottom line: check how much it costs and check what you get paid after graduation, and don't be afraid to ask questions to schools where you apply such as: what % of graduates get jobs in specialty, what are their average salaries, etc.

Edit: a few of my engineering students, after graduating and getting a job, were sent back to university for a Masters degree evening program, fully paid for by company. One even got a business MS paid for by company...nice bonus if company thinks you are productive.

You can never go wrong pursuing what you love. Beyond that think about decentralization, and where that will lead us in the future. Stay away from anything that's tied to an inflating economy(frivolous business's and services). Focus on things that have lasting value(takes something out of the ground and produces value from it). I think it's been too long since we've had meaningful innovations that are sustainable, economically and environmentally responsible.

I don’t think the value of an engineering degree can be overstated. No matter what the future brings, people who understand how technology works are going to be valuable and usually in short supply.

PeopleUnited says

Wow, dislike on this post? How about a counter argument?

It's not about you, it's just monkeys throwing shit.

I know, I've been the monkey.

Zak says

I highly recommend the community college + transfer + work during, even though GPA will likely suffer.

Community college should be taken only in subjects unrelated to major. In my classes, 60-80% of students who took prerequisites at community colleges fail as they pass anyone with a pulse, no learning required.

Ceffer says

There is always the temptation when mentoring to go all fake sanctimonious about hard work and merit.

Sociologists did a study, and they found that young people didn't listen to OldFucks, they took their cues from their often idiotically short sighted, hyperactive, and misguided peers, so anything an OldFuck tells a YoungFuck will have limited effect.

Unfortunately, my advice would be find a way to work a good con exploiting the insane, hypocritical bureaucratic idiocies and inconsistencies of the system. Learn to ride the wave.

It may be amoral, but more realistic and politic as a path to some sort of ragged success and self perpetuation.

If you know the title and/or author's name of this study, please let us know.

Shaman says

I don’t think the value of an engineering degree can be overstated. No matter what the future brings, people who understand how technology works are going to be valuable and usually in short supply.

Prof Cal Newport says that the major should be rare and valuable.

Rb6d says

Zak says

I highly recommend the community college + transfer + work during, even though GPA will likely suffer.

Community college should be taken only in subjects unrelated to major. In my classes, 60-80% of students who took prerequisites at community colleges fail as they pass anyone with a pulse, no learning required.

Neighbors and friends are both CC professors. I'd agree with your sentiment. Put it this way, I wouldn't want them teaching my kids even though I respect them. Both are English professors which is a completely fungible subject, so my view is biased to some extent as English really shouldn't even be a subject at the collegiate level. You should be reading and writing by 10-12, or at least putting ideas down. No need when you're 18-20 to be taking English classes.

gabbar says

The student in Ohio

Step 1: Get the jab
Ohio will give away $1 million prizes to five adults, plus another five full-ride public college scholarships to teens who get vaccinated against COVID-19, Gov. Mike DeWine announced on Wednesday

WookieMan says

Neighbors and friends are both CC professors. I'd agree with your sentiment. Put it this way, I wouldn't want them teaching my kids even though I respect them. Both are English professors which is a completely fungible subject, so my view is biased to some extent as English really shouldn't even be a subject at the collegiate level.

Community college profs are evaluated on basis of student evaluations. Students are happy if they are passed without having to learn, and administration is happy if students are happy...it is easy to conclude what are the results.

#1 Stay away from Anime.

Go to work for Elon Musk. Musk thinks experiential learning is more important than most book learning. If you're an autodidact, SpaceX could be the right place now. And who knows? You might get on one of the first trips to Mars! What an adventure!!

EBGuy says

gabbar says

The student in Ohio

Step 1: Get the jab
Ohio will give away $1 million prizes to five adults, plus another five full-ride public college scholarships to teens who get vaccinated against COVID-19, Gov. Mike DeWine announced on Wednesday

Registered the student for the public college scholarship lottery

Ceffer says

There is always the temptation when mentoring to go all fake sanctimonious about hard work and merit.

Sociologists did a study, and they found that young people didn't listen to OldFucks, they took their cues from their often idiotically short sighted, hyperactive, and misguided peers, so anything an OldFuck tells a YoungFuck will have limited effect.

Unfortunately, my advice would be find a way to work a good con exploiting the insane, hypocritical bureaucratic idiocies and inconsistencies of the system. Learn to ride the wave.

It may be amoral, but more realistic and politic as a path to some sort of ragged success and self perpetuation.

Are you referring to The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris?

Zak says

100% agree that 100k is too much. I highly recommend the community college + transfer + work during, even though GPA will likely suffer. I've never had a job interviewer ask me my GPA. And although California is nice, remember the in-state vs out of state tuition rates are quite different. I was too poor to do it, but if a parent can help, it sure seems like a semester abroad would also be an amazing experience.

Drinking/partying is also a huge part of the college experience. Rather than trying to shelter your kids from all forms of underage drinking, I'd actually encourage you to have some home (family only) parties where drinking is allowed. You can teach and monitor on how to pace yourself, how to recognize when you're too drunk (and may be getting drunker despite stopping drinking), how to recognize when a friend is getting too drunk, etc. Also, maybe a fun, but instructive way of experiencing how judgement can be impaired.

Basically, my hope for my kids is not that ...

Yeah, I remember a few crazy things I did as a student in Louisiana

NuttBoxer says

You can never go wrong pursuing what you love.

Oh how wrong you are. You can absolutely go wrong pursuing what you love. Especially if what you love is economically stupid. This is why hobbies are a thing, and there are a ton of actors and actresses who happen to have. aside barista job(or worse).

WookieMan says

You should be reading and writing by 10-12, or at least putting ideas down. No need when you're 18-20 to be taking English classes.

I agree here 100%. Non-major curriculum only at community college. This can be a bit hard when there is a linear dependency for a lot of the math classes for physics and engineering for example. Community college might not be the best place to try to learn differential equations or linear algebra.

WookieMan says

richwicks says

He (or she)

Actually he/she does matter. Specifically for women. Degrees matter much less besides getting into the building/employer so to speak because you have a piece of paper.

I disagree.

Women can use a lot of things to their advantage, but when they do, they use it to their long term detriment.

You know what I've spent my life doing? What I enjoy. I happen to make a lot of money doing it, but I've also at times done stuff I hate - to such a degree I've woken up wishing I was dead rather than return to a job. I've taken paycuts to do things I enjoy, and I've quit jobs over principle. I certainly do not regret that at all.

The worst times in my life, were when I was making more money than I ever expected making, doing a job I was deeply conflicted about doing.

Better do a job you can like, but if the kid is a female, you have to marry up with. I understand that as well. From a strictly male perspective, I strongly suggest doing something you don't hate. Sure you might be making a shit ton of money, but I hated everything about my life except small aspects of it when I did it. There's companies I never want to work for again because the job was either too worthless, or the company was just too unethical. It's just misery to spend more than a 1/3rd of your time doing something you hate - when the other 1/3rd of your time is sleeping.

Zak says

WookieMan says

You should be reading and writing by 10-12, or at least putting ideas down. No need when you're 18-20 to be taking English classes.

I agree here 100%. Non-major curriculum only at community college. This can be a bit hard when there is a linear dependency for a lot of the math classes for physics and engineering for example. Community college might not be the best place to try to learn differential equations or linear algebra.

This is true. Do what you love as a hobby, unless it makes money and it likely does not.

I really enjoy studying propaganda and history. Sure glad I didn't major in either of those, either I'd be a psychologist making propaganda to lie to the public, or working at Starbucks serving you coffee.

Zak says

Community college might not be the best place to try to learn differential equations or linear algebra.

Both of those are pretty easy to learn online.

I loved linear algebra. It's just matrices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggWYkes-n6E

gabbar says

Which engineering branches, hard sciences and premed tracks are worth it? Which branch of computer science, electronics or communication engineering are worth it in the long run? Will try our best to avoid debt.

As far as Computer Science, it almost doesn't matter which branch it is because everything changes so fast.

Math, however, is apparently making a comeback in CS. In addition to Boolean Algebra and Logic, which is kinda obvious, there's now much greater emphasis on Linear Algebra and Statistics because both are foundation for Machine Learning. Even Category Theory, which is a bit on the abstract side, is no longer unheard of in CS culture due to it's influence on Functional Programming.

Edit: I know some very high profile people who are quite sceptical about Machine Learning. Even in the areas in which it actually produces decent results. That's today though. We are talking about some years from now, plus entire career if that career is in CS. It seems obvious to me that ML will be biting off bigger and bigger pieces of the figurative pie, so getting proper background in that area seems like a reasonable bet.

mostly reader says

gabbar says

Which engineering branches, hard sciences and premed tracks are worth it? Which branch of computer science, electronics or communication engineering are worth it in the long run? Will try our best to avoid debt.

As far as Computer Science, it almost doesn't matter which branch it is because everything changes so fast.

Math, however, is apparently making a comeback in CS. In addition to Boolean Algebra and Logic, which is kinda obvious, there's now much greater emphasis on Linear Algebra and Statistics because both are foundation for Machine Learning. Even Category Theory, which is a bit on the abstract side, is no longer unheard of in CS culture due to it's influence on Functional Programming.

Edit: I know some very high profile people who are quite sceptical about Machine Learning. Even in the areas in which it actually produces decent results. That's today though. We are tal...

Good news is student received an award in Math yesterday. What concerns me about computer science is the export of jobs to other countries and import of IT workers through work visa. But this is where all the growth seems to be. Any thoughts about Systems Architecture or becoming a Chief Technology Officer for a major corporation or Network engineering? There is a new major called Healthcare Engineering too.

Personally, I believe America is in dire need of entrepreneurs. Choose a field that will help achieve self employment. One of America's biggest problems is centralized industry. With fewer choices, Americans are more easily herded. If the 2 grocery conglomerates in my area (Giant and Safeway) decide to mask their customers forever, I have little other choices.

Jobs n major that fit your personality are better.

Straight high $ and job growth

Pre med , healthcare
compsci
Some enginerring computer , electrical n Chem E

Shane has best vids on career
https://youtu.be/ajfDWlU138Y

WineHorror1 says

Personally, I believe America is in dire need of entrepreneurs. Choose a field that will help achieve self employment. One of America's biggest problems is centralized industry. With fewer choices, Americans are more easily herded. If the 2 grocery conglomerates in my area (Giant and Safeway) decide to mask their customers forever, I have little other choices.

Thinking about starting a LLC for the student

KgK one says

Jobs n major that fit your personality are better.

Straight high $ and job growth

Pre med , healthcare
compsci
Some enginerring computer , electrical n Chem E

Shane has best vids on career
https://youtu.be/ajfDWlU138Y

I will check out Shane Hummus's video.

WineHorror1 says

If the 2 grocery conglomerates in my area (Giant and Safeway) decide to mask their customers forever, I have little other choices.

No WalMart, Aldi, or Target? All are maskless if you identify as vaxxed. I only go to Giant or Safeway to buy items that are on sale.

zzyzzx says

Identify as a lesbian black woman for the purposes of college admissions and employment.

Add trans in there somewhere, it’s the latest crave by leftists.

Degree is for getting a job in various sectors that require it. If you aren’t going to top school to network with elites, then go to cheap one.

Fortwaynemobile says

Degree is for getting a job in various sectors that require it. If you aren’t going to top school to network with elites, then go to cheap one.

My understanding is that at top schools, the rich hobnob with the rich outside the school in clubs; the poor are not invited.

gabbar says

Any thoughts about Systems Architecture or becoming a Chief Technology Officer for a major corporation or Network engineering? There is a new major called Healthcare Engineering too.

Being a CTO is a good life for a bright person. Good CTO is hard to replace, while they have less stress than, say, VP of Eng. It's also true for anything "Architect"
IMHO, Network Engineer is harder as a lifestyle. Infinite hours in a lab, lots of low level details, repetitive work. I've known some super bright people who were/are Network Engineers, but - imho, yet again - a less bright person could also be a successful one if they are willing to bite the bullet and keep biting it for years. I'm not sure about NE as a career path because there's a strong push in the industry to solve those problems on a different level, and that skill set is becoming somewhat of a commodity. Network Architects are a different story; that career usually involves spending time as NE and biting lots of those proverbial bullets.
Can't comment on Healthcare Engineering, don't know much about it.

In terms of small steps, I'd say that it almost doesn't matter at this point. What does matter is that the person also develops social engineering and communication skills if they are not born with them. All top level positions demand that, and it's not something that someone without predisposition can learn overnight.

Delayed gratification sucks.

mostly reader says

gabbar says

Any thoughts about Systems Architecture or becoming a Chief Technology Officer for a major corporation or Network engineering? There is a new major called Healthcare Engineering too.

Being a CTO is a good life for a bright person. Good CTO is hard to replace, while they have less stress than, say, VP of Eng. It's also true for anything "Architect".
IMHO, Network Engineer is harder as a lifestyle. Infinite hours in a lab, lots of low level details, repetitive work. I've known some super bright people who were/are Network Engineers, but - imho, yet again - a less bright person could also be a successful one if they are willing to bite the bullet and keep biting it for years. I'm not sure about NE as a career path because there's a strong push in the industry to solve those problems on a different level, and that skill set is becoming somewhat of a commodity. Network Architects are a differe...

What are the steps necessary to reach the level of CTO?

I copied your reference regarding social engineering and communication skills to serve as a reminder for the student, thank you very much.

gabbar says

What are the steps necessary to reach the level of CTO?

I edited my prior post, removed that edit and now posting it here because it sorta gives a direction to answering your question (admittedly without answering it).

-- start
Apart from focusing on technical side (in general) and on communication (in general), I'd keep it open and not split hairs. Birds eye point of view is good enough. Changing tack is normal, some lucrative corporate careers aren't even taught in colleges. Product Management is one example. College can teach CS (as a general concept) or Math (as a general concept), or Biology (same). But Product Management requires little reusable skill, yet a lot of industry-specific knowledge, so how do you teach that? Product Managers, BusDev, HiTech Sales - these kinds may emerge from other specialties. You kid may surprise you.
-- end

As for your specific question - "how to become a CTO" - I don't know if there is a recipe. We are talking about decades of personal and professional development in which next step depends on the lessons learned in the step before that. Some thoughts come to mind but they can't be a guidance because they are too open-ended.