patrick.net

Omg why is Trump so RACIST???

Terrible thing, but why were they living in Mexico?

rdm says

Terrible thing, but why were they living in Mexico?

Most of them hold dual citizenship.

How is that relevant? What if they were tourists and didn't live in Mexico?

Would anybody say:
"Why was this Canadian Family doing driving through Michigan?"
"What was this German family doing driving in Austria?"

NoCoupForYou says

How is that relevant? What if they were tourists and didn't live in Mexico?

It's relevant because Mexico has devolved into a dangerous shithole.

Liberal_in_blackface says

NoCoupForYou says

How is that relevant? What if they were tourists and didn't live in Mexico?

It's relevant because Mexico has devolved into a dangerous shithole.

rdm says

Terrible thing, but why were they living in Mexico?

All reasons to close the border for good, re-opening contingent on cleaning up the country. Trump was right again.

Isn't lawlessness the exact reason the polygamists went down there in the first place?

rdm says

Terrible thing, but why were they living in Mexico?

They've been living in Mexico for a long time from what I read. One of the relatives thinks it could have been a case of mistaken identity. They were in a convoy, and the vehicle type might have made them a target(believe it was black SUV's).

NoCoupForYou says

President Donald Trump has waged a war on Mexican drug cartels

Really? By making drugs legal to cut off their source of income?

Yeah, thought so...

Ending the war on drugs by all but eliminating prosecution for possession and handing out free needles hasn't worked well in Seattle, San Fran, or overseas, in Lisbon.

NuttBoxer says

NoCoupForYou says

President Donald Trump has waged a war on Mexican drug cartels

Really? By making drugs legal to cut off their source of income?

Yeah, thought so...

While I generally agree on this step being necessary it does not stop a corrupt country being corrupt and criminals will find other avenues of making money and extortion. Mexico needs to do much much more than just us making them legal. Would be a good first step though.

NoCoupForYou says

Ending the war on drugs by all but eliminating prosecution for possession and handing out free needles hasn't worked well in Seattle, San Fran, or overseas, in Lisbon.

Measuring success is difficult. I would say it definitely takes heavy violent crime away since there's no incentive if the drugs are cheap and legal. But to remove somebody from the street and curb the lesser - sometimes still violent - crime deranged addicts and hobos commit, the municipalities and states need to do much more, such as involuntarily putting them off the streets and admitting them into programs where they can't leave until clean. And of course punish violent crime severely for everyone. Not the SF leftoid sanctuary crap.

but...fuck it. Lets open the borders anyway.
votes are more important that lives...
Liberal_in_blackface says

NoCoupForYou says

How is that relevant? What if they were tourists and didn't live in Mexico?

It's relevant because Mexico has devolved into a dangerous shithole.

Tortilla Derangement Syndrome...

rdm says

Terrible thing, but why were they living in Mexico?

Mitt Romney and Family have Mexican holdings and have spend much time living in Mexico.


Mitt Romney’s father was born in a small Mormon enclave where family members still live, surrounded by rugged beauty and violent drug cartels
Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/the-romneys-mexican-history-62357039/#46krvBg5dgPMHPpL.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/the-romneys-mexican-history-62357039/

Mormons as you may recall are involved in all kinds of shit. They are heavily involved in Las Vegas, in spite of not smoking, drinking, gambling or using drugs (at least as an article of faith). Mormons are the ones who sequestered Howard Hughs to control his fortune.

How exactly do you support yourself in Mexico with polygamy, colonies, and incontinent reproduction? Mormons have Wild West views on arms and armed force, and they aren't shy to use them.

Wouldn't be surprised if they weren't giving the cartels a bit of competition in the usual trades.

On a bonkers conspiracy note, maybe the CIA commissioned the cartels to send them a message.

It is a heavy decision to murder a Mormon convoy, and I would imagine the story, which will never be known, is a lot more complex when unwrapped. It doesn't seem to fit with random, anarchic violence.

mell says

While I generally agree on this step being necessary it does not stop a corrupt country being corrupt and criminals will find other avenues of making money and extortion. Mexico needs to do much much more than just us making them legal. Would be a good first step though.

That really depends on how much money is involved. Does Mexico become a failed state if cartels can no longer afford to outgun the military, have more tech than the police, and pay low level lackey's more than they'll ever see doing any other job? Cartels are criminals on steroids, without the War on Us they'd just be committing petty crime, and most of them would probably opt for real work, instead of dangerous, low paying gigs.

NuttBoxer says

most of them would probably opt for real work, instead of dangerous, low paying gigs.

Not so fast:

"During the crack cocaine boom of the 1990s, the image of the millionaire crack dealer implanted itself on the public consciousness. But anyone who spent time around the Crips or Bloods or any other crack-selling gang might have noticed something odd: A great many crack dealers still lived at home with their moms. Why was that?
...
So the top 120 men on the Black Disciples’ pyramid were paid very well. But the pyramid they sat atop was gigantic. Using J. T.'s franchise as a yardstick -- three officers and roughly 50 foot soldiers -- there were about 5,300 other men working for those 120 bosses. Then there were the 20,000 unpaid rank-and-file members, many of whom wanted nothing more than a chance to become a foot soldier. And how well did that dream job pay? About $3.30 an hour.

J. T.'s three officers didn’t do much better: about $7 an hour. So the answer to the original question -- if drug dealers make so much money, why are they still living with their mothers? -- is that, except for the top cats, they don’t make much money. They have no choice but to live with their mothers."


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-apr-24-oe-dubner24-story.html

Imagine using A-10s to wipe out cartel holdouts and convoys.

We can track all that shit with satellites and HUMINT. A Foot Soldier wouldn't mind $3000/month from Uncle Sam, more money than he makes guarding the compound from the Cartel. And once they find out we're paying Guards to be double agents, they'll have to pay more...

Liberal_in_blackface says

NuttBoxer says

most of them would probably opt for real work, instead of dangerous, low paying gigs.

Not so fast:

"During the crack cocaine boom of the 1990s, the image of the millionaire crack dealer implanted itself on the public consciousness. But anyone who spent time around the Crips or Bloods or any other crack-selling gang might have noticed something odd: A great many crack dealers still lived at home with their moms. Why was that?
...
So the top 120 men on the Black Disciples’ pyramid were paid very well. But the pyramid they sat atop was gigantic. Using J. T.'s franchise as a yardstick -- three officers and roughly 50 foot soldiers -- there were about 5,300 other men working for those 120 bosses. Then there were the 20,000 unpaid rank-and-file members, many of whom wanted nothing more than a chance to become a foot soldier. And how well did that dream job pay?

There is no single measure that can fix it alone. However making it cheap/available does not only make it less or unprofitable for the cartels, it also curbs the violence from addicts to get the money for their next fix. But to think that criminals cannot find other gigs is a bit naive IMO. So a lot more needs to be done before a nation can turn around. That being said, I support decriminalization for personal use and cheap access.

Ok, but there is also the glorification factor that I think again, doesn't exist to near the extent without that kind of money. Without the War on Us there would never be an El Chapo, or a Pablo Escobar. The magnitude that this has been blown up to is staggering because the money the cartel has(not the solider ok, but the cartel), is staggering.

Also, low level street gangs have several middle-men to navigate before they get their product. The cut drops every time. I don't remember hearing about any street gangs shooting down helicopters, so not an apples-to-apples comparison. Street gangs never took over a country, city, or town. Never held the politicians, police, and army in their pockets. Cartels have, and do all of the above. But eliminate 90% of their profit through legalization, and now they are just another Black Disciples. Common criminals easily handled by common methods.

NuttBoxer says

They were in a convoy, and the vehicle type might have made them a target(believe it was black SUV's).

A great choice of vehicles

It won't happen because the Cartels will bribe the government. Fortunes can be made in Grain and Bottled Water, so I'm not sure radical legalization is going to help.

While lowering the price may cut the profits, that can be made up with volume (much easier if possession is decriminalized) and it creates more addicts, since dealers will become more aggressive with who they sell it to.

Tactics would include street dealers hanging out outside a HS, only carrying the decriminalized amount, and sending somebody back to carry the decriminalized amount to the buyer, or to the dealer for the next customer.

If it's legal to have 10 grams of coke or heroin, I just never carry more than that (using premeasured bags). I sell, and then call somebody (preferably a kid) to bring me or the customer another bag.

To really stop drug smuggling we'd need to inspect every single container to a high level. Given the volume of trade with Mexico alone...

Didn't some illegal in California just shoot somebody over a pot patch on public land because he thought they were going to steal it? Yet pot is decriminalized in CA.

NoCoupForYou says

Didn't some illegal in California just shoot somebody over a pot patch on public land because he thought they were going to steal it? Yet pot is decriminalized in CA.

There was the guy who was dragged out of his home in the middle of the night from his home overlooking the ocean at Pleasure Point in Santa Cruz recently. He was more or less routinely executed on Soquel San Jose Road.

He had a web design company, and was trying to break into the local pot dispensary business, supposedly legal. However, who knows, usual lack of press follow up on the story and maybe he was also getting into the harder, illegal stuff. Yeah, sanctuary cities really work, because he was just pulled out and shot. If that isn't basic cartel shit, I don't know what is.

He had a really nice house right on the point overlooking the surf spots.

https://www.ksbw.com/article/body-in-pleasure-point-kidnapping-identified-as-missing-man-motive-released/29344002

NoCoupForYou says

Tactics would include street dealers hanging out outside a HS, only carrying the decriminalized amount, and sending somebody back to carry the decriminalized amount to the buyer, or to the dealer for the next customer.

This would never exist with legalization. Who's gonna buy from a shady dealer when you can get it from Walmart, or a dispensary with lab testing? And availability has shit to do with addiction. Most people never tried hard liquor before prohibition.

Ceffer says

Didn't some illegal in California just shoot somebody over a pot patch on public land because he thought they were going to steal it? Yet pot is decriminalized in CA.

California laws have driven legalization backwards, not forwards. The expense is prohibitive, and most have gone back to the black market(growing) as a result. Just saying something's legal doesn't mean shit if it cost you a million dollars to grow it.

NuttBoxer says

Ceffer says

Didn't some illegal in California just shoot somebody over a pot patch on public land because he thought they were going to steal it? Yet pot is decriminalized in CA.

California laws have driven legalization backwards, not forwards. The expense is prohibitive, and most have gone back to the black market(growing) as a result. Just saying something's legal doesn't mean shit if it cost you a million dollars to grow it.

Right so while legalization is a good way to combat drug trafficking, the politicians need to be kept at bay wrt raising taxes and enriching their municipality/state/country and themselves, otherwise the back market will come back swiftly. CA is a prime example for this.

@Ceffer, thanks for the summary and followup on Atre. I'd seen the headlines but didn't realize the story centered around a pot business. This quote says it all: "He's definitely new to the industry. Basically, unfamiliar with the etiquette about how to do business. Unfamiliar with how, you know there are some are some, illegal black market elements in the cannabis industry and if you don't pay them, bad stuff happens," said Grant Palmer, CEO of CannaCruz, who has never met Atre. Yikes! Note to self, study some Miss Manners before opening an edibles business.

mell says

Right so while legalization is a good way to combat drug trafficking, the politicians need to be kept at bay wrt raising taxes and enriching their municipality/state/country and themselves, otherwise the back market will come back swiftly. CA is a prime example for this.

To be clear, I'm always advocating free market legalization. And free market means free of most or all government fees, as these generally exist only to aid the companies in bed with government, and stifle competition, and of course to provide a revenue stream for an entity that makes no product, and provides no useful service.

Even if the drug is 'legal', you can still operate a tax and regulation avoidance illegal operation that can be profitable because no tax or regulation involved. A lot of 'legal' pot growers still sell through illegal channels because they can make more money and avoid the taxes/regulations.

Why do you think the Mafia run cigarettes? You'll still have the gang related turf wars.

Ceffer says

Even if the drug is 'legal', you can still operate a tax and regulation avoidance illegal operation that can be profitable because no tax or regulation involved. A lot of 'legal' pot growers still sell through illegal channels because they can make more money and avoid the taxes/regulations.

Why do you think the Mafia run cigarettes? You'll still have the gang related turf wars.

Yeah but it's nowhere as bad as the cartel wars. And it's mainly because politicians enrich themselves via taxes. Cigarettes would cost next to nothing without taxes.