patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

HydroCabron says

Ruthless exploitation of our natural resources. So, in a sense, we started with a lot, and the most energetic, capable and sleazy made off with most of it. Same as any other time and place.

Word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Copper

That's pretty much the cycle every culture goes through during industrialization. Still, the outcome likely outweighs the scenario of no industrialization. Maybe if population would have been kept in check via no medical advancements whatsoever it may have been feasible to burn trees and forage your way through nature, but today's technologies are necessary and those have resulted from industrialization as well.

Dan8267 says

Explain why Edgar Codd, inventor of the relational database, never became a billionaire, and Larry Ellison, a fat fuck who couldn't make a database system if his life literally depended on it, became a billionaire off of Codd's invention.

Codd didn't do poorly either and got awards, so if you have skills you will do well in a meritocracy. Life is not fair but by the law of large numbers a capitalistic/meritocratic society is much fairer than socialism/communism. It also generates more wealth because the pie is not fixed. Even if you consider Ellison greedy overall people and companies benefited from Oracle databases being distributed worldwide, otherwise they would not have kept buying them.

mell says

Still, the outcome likely outweighs the scenario of no industrialization.

It's also better than shoving hot needles into your eyes.

So you see vulture, robber-baron capitalism as the only way to rise out of hunter-gatherer life?

HydroCabron says

So you see vulture, robber-baron capitalism as the only way to rise out of hunter-gatherer life?

It's a byproduct. These days billionaires are trying to buy immortality via gene therapy, freezing their heads or whole bodies while others still die from treatable infections. A free marketplace is the best incentive for breakthroughs while reducing costs and giving access to technology to everybody. Robber-barron and crony capitalism may have originated from lawlessness back then, but today (where everything can travel globally within a day for next to nothing) it originates from collusion with big government. We have enough, even too many laws and regulations, they just need to be applied to everybody without exemptions.

Billions in fiat currency or billions in assets,physical & paper, based on fiat currency.
Why can't I print worthless money?

She needs to marry a multi multi billionaire and divorce him for half his stuff.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

The pie is fixed the pie is fixed, they stole our money.

Explain why Edgar Codd, inventor of the relational database, never became a billionaire, and Larry Ellison, a fat fuck who couldn't make a database system if his life literally depended on it, became a billionaire off of Codd's invention. If the system worked even a tenth as well as you claim, Codd would have been a billionaire and Ellison would be living in a cardboard box on the street.

Inventors make lousy entrepreneurs. Bringing a successful product to market requires a whole set of skills rarely available to just one person. I am acquainted with a person who is a professor of an entrepreneur class. If he knows everything, how come he ain't rich? Because he is an introvert who can't handle the real world.

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Where did all the wealth in the country come from when we started with nothing?

Ruthless exploitation of our natural resources. So, in a sense, we started with a lot, and the most energetic, capable and sleazy made off with most of it. Same as any other time and place.

If you dig up some silicon, you will have a nickel's worth of silicon. If you can turn that silicon pice into a state of the art chip you have $500.00 worth of silicon. To get to that high value point you need all the skills, the inventions, management, entrepreneurship etc. that go into creating value that only capitalism can provide. North Korea has lots of natural resources, while South Korea has almost none. Yet, they have a lot more wealth than NK. Japan, Singapore, Switzerland have little or no natural resources, yet they have some of the best standard of living.
Natural resources is good to have, but the real value comes with adding value to that.

mell says

Codd didn't do poorly either and got awards

If you are trying to make the point that capitalism rewards innovation than Codd should be the second richest person in the world, right after Tim Berners-Lee, and Ellison should be penniless. The system empirically does not work like you claim. Historical fact contradicts the religion of capitalism. When observation contradicts your theory, your theory is wrong, not the universe.

Strategist says

Inventors make lousy entrepreneurs

An "entrepreneur" is nothing but code for crooks who bribe politicians to make their crimes legal. If capitalism was all so great, it would reward innovation and productivity, not sleaziness, deception, and bribery.

mell says

Life is not fair but by the law of large numbers a capitalistic/meritocratic society is much fairer than socialism/communism.

And that is why your opinion, and those of all other capitalist worshipers, is worthless. You think that capitalism and communism are the only two choices. There are literally an infinite number of ways that an economy can be structured. Two is far less than infinity.

Also, capitalism is not a meritocracy. It does not reward merit, or productivity, or innovation, or advancement. Capitalism rewards only one thing: bargaining power.

Dan8267 says

If you are trying to make the point that capitalism rewards innovation than Codd should be the second richest person in the world, right after Tim Berners-Lee, and Ellison should be penniless. The system empirically does not work like you claim. Historical fact contradicts the religion of capitalism. When observation contradicts your theory, your theory is wrong, not the universe.

On average and by large numbers the theory holds true.

Dan8267 says

An "entrepreneur" is nothing but code for crooks who bribe politicians to make their crimes legal. If capitalism was all so great, it would reward innovation and productivity, not sleaziness, deception, and bribery.

That's not accurate, plenty of entrepreneurs play by the rules and take big risks.

Dan8267 says

There are literally an infinite number of ways that an economy can be structured. Two is far less than infinity.

That's true, but because of human nature all of the ones (if we believe their good intentions) in between gravitated towards as what you see as the extremes, they were simply not stable. We're far from perfect, why should our economic system be?

Making a product is important, but being able to market it is a whole another story. But especially for tech folks, there is an animosity with the business. Techies almost always seem to forget that the business pays their bills and just seem to rejoice in their "knowledge". Geeks squad gone wild!!

lostand confused says

But especially for tech folks, there is an animosity with the business. Techies almost always seem to forget that the business pays their bills

Actually, familiarity with businessmen will give you animosity towards the business.

I take the editorial attitude of The Economist on this matter: businesses are a necessary thing, but one should be clear-eyed about the nature of business practices and many people in business.

Little of this has anything to do with merit, BTW. I doubt that either Dr. Codd or Larry Ellison are either deserving of special accolade: nothing about relational databases is earth-shaking revelation. Truly remarkable, special people are quite rare, and, because the world does not run solely on merit, unlikely to be widely recognized.

Call It Crazy was forcing his dog to give him a blow job this morning when suddenly the dog turned on him, but the dog's ass was just as good.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Inventors make lousy entrepreneurs

An "entrepreneur" is nothing but code for crooks who bribe politicians to make their crimes legal. If capitalism was all so great, it would reward innovation and productivity, not sleaziness, deception, and bribery.

How come I didn't become a billionaire like Ellison? I have no problem with sleaziness, deception, and bribery. I would love to do it.
How come all those criminals who hold up 7-11's don't become billionaires? You think a little thing like bribery will stop murderers?
Dan, you need to walk into reality. Stop smoking that Jamaican stuff.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Because he is an introvert who can't handle the real world.

You just described Dan....

Oh Boy, you are really gonna piss off Dan.

Dan8267 says

Call It Crazy was forcing his dog to give him a blow job this morning when suddenly the dog turned on him, but the dog's ass was just as good.

I told you.

Strategist says

How come I didn't become a billionaire like Ellison? I have no problem with sleaziness, deception, and bribery. I would love to do it.

How come all those criminals who hold up 7-11's don't become billionaires? You think a little thing like bribery will stop murderers?

Dan, you need to walk into reality. Stop smoking that Jamaican stuff.

Look at Christian Holmes IV I just posted. He flits in and out of private enterprise and the government regulators. Manufacturing to China Envoy for USAID. Clean Energy Exec at Enron after a stint in the EPA. Now he's the "Global Water Coordinator", and shortly thereafter a Bechtel family member joined his daughters medical company board.

Chertoff goes to work for Rapiscan, and then all their machines are brought by the TSA. Now they're being replaced because they're well nigh worthless and expensive to operate.

That's how shit is done - networking aka nepotism, masquerading as skill and merit.

The problem is Everyone does not believe it as attaining riches has not panned out for them despite working hard.
However, what they don't realize is that they are too stupid to realize it.

HydroCabron says

Anyone who works hard will be rich, unless they're stupid. Everyone knows that.

IOW...honey couldn't sell his "Hello world" baby javascript to uncle Sergey...now every entrepreneur must survive the floridian onslaught...

Dan8267 says

An "entrepreneur" is nothing but code for crooks who bribe politicians to make their crimes legal. If capitalism was all so great, it would reward innovation and productivity, not sleaziness, deception, and bribery.

Strategist says

How come I didn't become a billionaire like Ellison? I have no problem with sleaziness, deception, and bribery. I would love to do it.

All pickles are cucumbers, but not all cucumbers are pickles. Again, A implies B does not imply B implies A. Have you learned nothing this week?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

How come I didn't become a billionaire like Ellison? I have no problem with sleaziness, deception, and bribery. I would love to do it.

All pickles are cucumbers, but not all cucumbers are pickles. Again, A implies B does not imply B implies A. Have you learned nothing this week?

So you agree with me. Entrepreneurship requires a whole host of skills, many of which I do not have, which is why I am just average.
I can assure you 98% of the population would have no scruples or hesitation doing something that enhances their wealth. Would you cheat on your taxes if you could? Come on, tell me the truth.
:)

thunderlips11 says

That's how shit is done - networking aka nepotism, masquerading as skill and merit

I think you are confusing the feminazi/juvenile fantasy of merit with reality. That the world is some magical world where everybody goes and does their work and some magical wise supreme being recognizes their talent and gives out rewards in a just and fair way.
Reality is like the jungle, a dog eat dog world. Where merit, quality, talent, time, fate, luck all mingle and we push our way through and try and make it. We may be knocked over a few times and sometimes may never stand again. But most of the time we do-brush it off and realize that life ain't fair and plough along. Utopia only exists in fairytales and even they have monsters. reality is more mixed and you live with what you got.

The feminazis and Obozo's attempt to mandate equality will only create an entitled class-unable to withstand the onslaught of a more fiercer "enemy" . Instead of fighting back, we will become fat tubs of lard on gubmnt dole and act like sheep lead to slaughter. Men/women -big deal-there are going to be winners and losers. It will change-one must accept reality in the raw, embrace it and move on. if one thinks mgmt. is all clowns, then become one and change the culture.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Oh Boy, you are really gonna piss off Dan.

Dan8267 says

Call It Crazy was forcing his dog to give him a blow job this morning when suddenly the dog turned on him, but the dog's ass was just as good.

I told you.

Is it any surprise that Dan lives by himself in his apartment and has NO significant other in his life?

I'll be surprised if he even wants to live with himself. I think he drove himself nuts.

Strategist says

Japan, Singapore, Switzerland have little or no natural resources, yet they have some of the best standard of living.

Singapore and Switzerland have tremendous natural resources: location.

Singapore is in a beautiful location for handling shipping. Switzerland is in a beautiful location for storing people's money, and usually allowing them to retreive it.

Japan ain't doing so well lately, as it hasn't replaced its business efficiency (now widely emulated) by some other advantage. They must devise a means of helping other societies exploit their natural resources. China is doing this now, by investing in Austrailian and African natural resources, which it can do because it has provided so much cheap labor to the world.

But all of these places are examples of accidents of good government

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Japan, Singapore, Switzerland have little or no natural resources, yet they have some of the best standard of living.

Singapore and Switzerland have tremendous natural resources: location.

Singapore is in a beautiful location for handling shipping. Switzerland is in a beautiful location for storing people's money, and usually allowing them to retreive it.

Japan ain't doing so well lately, as it hasn't replaced its business efficiency (now widely emulated) by some other advantage. They must devise a means of helping other societies exploit their natural resources. China is doing this now, by investing in Austrailian and African natural resources, which it can do because it has provided so much cheap labor to the world.

But all of these places are examples of accidents of good government

HUH!

Dear God,
If getting to heaven requires teaching my weird friends like Hydro, Dan, SBH, Bob of the most basics of facts, I give up. Take me to hell now, because they are incapable of learning.
Yours truly
Startegist

thunderlips11 says

Look at Christian Holmes IV I just posted

But what does that have to do with Liz Holmes? Sure money can buy an edge in education and get you/your kids into certain jobs, but she certainly didn't become a billionaire because all the nepotists decided to pour money into her company even though they thought it had no merit. She is smart, educated and started a business that benefits everybody.

Strategist says

Dear God,

If getting to heaven requires teaching my weird friends like Hydro, Dan, SBH, Bob of the most basics of facts, I give up. Take me to hell now, because they are incapable of learning

Interesting argument: I hadn't considered this angle. This changes everything.

So you believe that the reason South Korea is more successful than North Korea has nothing to do with their respective governments?

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Dear God,


If getting to heaven requires teaching my weird friends like Hydro, Dan, SBH, Bob of the most basics of facts, I give up. Take me to hell now, because they are incapable of learning

Interesting argument: I hadn't considered this angle. This changes everything.

So you believe that the reason South Korea is more successful than North Korea has nothing to do with their respective governments?

One practices Capitalism, the other practices Stupidity. You tell me which is which.

Strategist says

So you agree with me.

Your reading comprehension skills are as lacking as your logic.

CIC spotted at a gas station...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9FNVjPtVwRk

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

One practices Capitalism, the other practices Stupidity. You tell me which is which.

You mean to tell us, one country is run by Liberals?

Worse. Someone like Dan, SBH, Hydro, and Bob put together.

The worst things in the history of the United States...
1. Genocides
2. Slavery
3. Wars founded on lies
4. Carpet bombing of villages
5. Medical experimentation on unsuspecting civilians
6. False evidence used to convict and execute innocent people
7. Segregation
8. Homophobic laws
9. Disregard for the environment
10. Trashing of Constitutional rights including due process

Yet, Strategist and CIC are in favor of all of the above. 'Nuff said.

Dan8267 says

The worst things in the history of the United States...

1. Genocides

2. Slavery

3. Wars founded on lies

4. Carpet bombing of villages

5. Medical experimentation on unsuspecting civilians

6. False evidence used to convict and execute innocent people

7. Segregation

8. Homophobic laws

9. Disregard for the environment

10. Trashing of Constitutional rights including due process

Yet, Strategist and CIC are in favor of all of the above. 'Nuff said.

In other words we are no worse than the rest of the world. :)
Here is why are are better:
1. We fought and died to end slavery.
2. Everything else you mention is illegal and punishable by law.
3. The whole world wants to be American.
Aren't you glad you live in America?

Call it Crazy says

Worse. Someone like Dan, SBH, Hydro, and Bob put together.

Talk about the ultimate circle jerk...

Are you sure you want to explore this line of attack, given the mutual suckfest between you and your zombie shih-tzu Ingenous?

Feminists will just ignore and pretend people like this do not exist. It's much easier to drown in self pity for them and blame others for their own personal failures.

Strategist says

1. We fought and died to end slavery.

Well technically instead of blacks picking cotton, we just have Mexicans cook and do all the jobs we had slaves do. We moved slavery from black to "white south of the border". World is same today as it was years ago, just a little more window dressing.

Strategist says

1. We fought and died to end slavery.

And the Wehrmacht fought to end Nazism, side by side with the Allies!

Strategist says

In other words we are no worse than the rest of the world. :)

Here is why are are better:

1. We fought and died to end slavery.

2. Everything else you mention is illegal and punishable by law.

3. The whole world wants to be American.

Aren't you glad you live in America?

Most countries in the world didn't commit genocide and practice slavery. And a country doesn't get credit for eventually stopping what evil it does.

And liberals fought and died to end slavery while conservatives fought and died to keep it. Everything in the list I gave was done by conservatives and opposed by liberals.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

In other words we are no worse than the rest of the world. :)


Here is why are are better:


1. We fought and died to end slavery.


2. Everything else you mention is illegal and punishable by law.


3. The whole world wants to be American.


Aren't you glad you live in America?

Most countries in the world didn't commit genocide and practice slavery. And a country doesn't get credit for eventually stopping what evil it does.

Are you kidding me? Every region of the earth had slavery and genocide at some point in the past thousands of years.
The Native Indian tribes were always slaughtering each other, and taking women and children as slaves. They were very cruel. Same with Africa, where genocide still goes goes on. Humans are an uncivilized and barbaric species.
What makes USA different was it's willingness to admit a wrong, and it's resolve to end that wrong even at the ultimate price.
You guys are just disgruntled America bashers who unfairly blame America for anything that goes wrong in the world, without giving credit for the right things America has done. When you run out of feeble accusations, you take refuge in the evils of the past that America committed, even though we are a different country today, populated by different people.

Strategist says

Every region of the earth had slavery and genocide at some point in the past thousands of years.

If you vague up the term region enough... Hell, you could define the entire Earth as a single reason and make that claim, but then the claim still doesn't represent the vast majority of the Earth.

My statement was "Most countries in the world didn't commit genocide and practice slavery.". Now you are making a Straw Man argument because you cannot refute the actual argument I made.

Strategist says

What makes USA different was it's willingness to admit a wrong

Actually, people like you are whitewashing history and cheerleading your tribe rather than letting our country learn from its mistakes and not repeat them. Hell, if our society were to learn from its mistakes instead of whitewashing history, there wouldn't even be a marriage equality debate. Everyone would be pro-marriage-equality because they would have learned the mistake of prohibiting interracial marriages and would be familiar with Loving v. Virginia.

Strategist says

you take refuge in the evils of the past that America committed

To say that we have to either lie about our history or we hate America is a false dichotomy. It is not patriotic to lie about your country's history or pretend that it is nobler than it is. The first step to solving any problem is acknowledging its existence. To hinder that is to hinder a solution and that hurts America. White washing history harms America and Americans. It is the most unpatriotic thing you can do.

Again, learn the lessons of history. Early 20th century Europe proved that nationalism is a bad thing. If you want to show your patriotism, stop waving that flag and start volunteering at a soup kitchen or Jimmy Carter's Habitat for Humanity, or support social safety nets that keep families from becoming homeless. That says a hell of a lot more about your commitment to you country than chanting USA.

Strategist says

even though we are a different country today

Bullshit. The free/slave state map and the Obama/Romney election result map are the same damn map after over 150 years! We're still fighting the Civil War, and quite frankly, it's pathetic. Conservatives have yet to admit that they were on the morally bankrupt side of history and so they continue the sins of their ancestors. Again, if we had really changed, the entire marriage equality issue would have been settled in favor of equal rights for all under law. It's been over almost 240 years, and we're still not fulfilling the premise of our revolution and the founding of our country.

And the problem is that people like you keep us from making progress. If conservative scum like you didn't exist, our country would be as good as you like to make it out to be and it would have been that way for 200 years.

You wreck the country every time you support
- suspending Constitutional rights for anyone including terrorists
- any form of inequality under law including anti-gay legislation
- the squeezing of the middle class by the owner class
- the removal of social safety nets and anti-poverty nets
- tax breaks for the richest 1%
- pollution and other environmental destruction
- unnecessary warfare
- militarized police who are not held accountable for their crimes
- the targeting of civilians in war whether directly or as collateral damage
- increasing the unaffordability of health care to maximize corporate profits

In all these things, you conservatives are still on the wrong side of history.