patrick.net

1. None of my posts in this thread suggests what you are saying. Coincidentally, you are correct in your conclusion, but you should not have reached that conclusion from my statements in this thread. Although in other threads I may have expressed this judgement.

Yes, I believe that is how I arrived at my conclusion.

3. I am not for drone strikes as they are being operated by the Obama administration because for every alleged terrorist killed by a drone strike, 10 to 50 innocent people including children are killed

You just said you would take the least evil path.
When you go after terrorists, innocent people are bound to die. The idea is to prevent even more deaths. When Pakistan goes after their terrorists even more innocent people end up dying, as their weapons are not as sophisticated and accurate as ours. Are you saying it's OK for them to have collateral damage, but not us? Because I don't hear anyone complaining when they end up killing innocent people. Does it really matter who kills the terrorists, as long as they are killed?
A small war to prevent a big war can never be bad. Humanity is much better off.

4. A bit out of scope of our discussion, but relevant to the big picture... I believe that whenever the use of violence is the path of least evil, it is because an earlier opportunity to solve a problem without violence was missed.

I agree, but we cannot go back in time to change history. We can, however, change the future for the better. Lets learn from history and not repeat it, expecting a different result each time.

25 Robert Sproul 2014 Jun 25, 2:46am

innocent people are bound to die. The idea is to prevent even more deaths.

If it was your family that was the "innocent sacrifice" would you be so philosophical?

26

MisdemeanorRebel 2014 Jun 25, 2:55am

27

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 3:24am

Robert Sproul says

Strategist says

innocent people are bound to die. The idea is to prevent even more deaths.

If it was your family that was the "innocent sacrifice" would you be so philosophical?

In that scenario I would get biased and speak out against drone strikes. As that has not happened I can still be rational.
My question to you is...if it was your family that was the victim of a terrorist strike that could have been prevented with a drone strike, would you still be against them?

28

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 3:26am

thunderlips11 says

Remember, most innocent people dying in these countries is due to Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up at weddings and funerals.
There are no American suicide bombers.

29

zzyzzx 2014 Jun 25, 3:56am

Johns Hopkins epidemiologists concluded that 100,000 mostly women, children and elderly were killed during the opening invasion itself.

That's roughly equivalent to one raid on Toyko in WW2!

30

Shaman 2014 Jun 25, 3:57am

Kill one person and you're a murderer. Kill a hundred people and you're a psychopath. Kill ten thousand people and you're a warlord. Kill a hundred thousand people and you're a king. Kill ten million people and you're a legend.

31

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 4:11am

When you go after terrorists, innocent people are bound to die.

Prove it. I don't buy into the argument that fighting terrorism requires the deaths of innocents and certainly not to the degree to which the U.S. military has done so.

If anything, I would argue that the deaths of innocents causes terrorism. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighters. According to the USA Patriot Act, George Washington and the other founding fathers were terrorists.

If our goal is to prevent terrorism, then we have to think how we would react if someone blew up an elementary school killing hundreds of our children. Then we must realize that other people would react the exact same way when we do this to them. Terrorist is a label used to dehumanize other people. It's no different than the Nazis referring to Jews as rats and criminals.

During the Holocaust, Nazis referred to Jews as rats. Hutus involved in the Rwanda genocide called Tutsis cockroaches. Slave owners throughout history considered slaves subhuman animals. In Less Than Human, David Livingstone Smith argues that it's important to define and describe dehumanization, because it's what opens the door for cruelty and genocide.

"We all know, despite what we see in the movies," Smith tells NPR's Neal Conan, "that it's very difficult, psychologically, to kill another human being up close and in cold blood, or to inflict atrocities on them." So, when it does happen, it can be helpful to understand what it is that allows human beings "to overcome the very deep and natural inhibitions they have against treating other people like game animals or vermin or dangerous predators."

Thinking sets the agenda for action, and thinking of humans as less than human paves the way for atrocity. The Nazis were explicit about the status of their victims. They were Untermenschen â€” subhumans â€” and as such were excluded from the system of moral rights and obligations that bind humankind together. It's wrong to kill a person, but permissible to exterminate a rat. To the Nazis, all the Jews, Gypsies and others were rats: dangerous, disease-carrying rats.

That's exactly how many in our country portray human beings they label as terrorists. And that's all the word terrorist is, a god-damn label used to circumvent reason and specific evidence.

32

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 4:12am

thunderlips11 says

Well said. One of the largest problems with our society is that most Americans value only American lives. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them.

33

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 4:13am

In that scenario I would get biased and speak out against drone strikes. As that has not happened I can still be rational.

A valid point. However, you are neglecting your bias due to the fact that you live in the country using the drone strikes and not the country enduring the drone strikes.

34

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 4:22am

Remember, most innocent people dying in these countries is due to Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up at weddings and funerals.

There are no American suicide bombers.

Yes, religion is bad and it causes people to do evil things. However, the evil done by Al Qaeda does not justify the evil done by the U.S. You might as well say that Al Qaeda killed some Americans, so it's fine for anyone to gun down Americans. Same logic.

As for suicide bombing, that just means the enemy is braver. Suicide bombings are evil because they are bombings and kill others, not because of the suicide.

Americans prefer to kill safely from a distance by pushing a button. That's cowardly. Smart perhaps, but cowardly. So our killing style is nothing to brag about. Switch technological levels and the U.S. would be using guerrilla tactics like it did during the American Revolution and Al Qaeda would be killing Americans from 10 miles away with Apache helicopters. The difference between the warfare techniques is due to the asymmetric technology and infrastructure.

Now I will say that the people in our society overall are more moral than the people in the Middle East, but that is due primarily to the fact that science has quelled religion in our society allowing rational minds to prevail. Religion causes immorality, whereas rational thought and naturalism advances morality. That said, the most immoral part of our society is the warfare industry.

35

MisdemeanorRebel 2014 Jun 25, 4:38am

Drone strikes kill innocents because Intelligence uses almost wholly SIM card locators. All those billions upon billions, and we have no HUMINT to confirm or provide more detail, because we're Americans and think Technology is the answer to any and all problems.

The problem is most cell phones in the 3rd World are Paygo, and people swap phones all around.

When the drone reaches the area of the SIM card, instead of a terror meeting, it's a wedding. Perhaps a nephew of a terrorist is a guest at the wedding, and he borrowed one of his Uncles cell phones. Hellfire Away, right into the face of the 5 year old and dozens of other innocents!

"Why do they hate us? Must be because of our Freedom(tm)!"

Also, the GBU might hit the right house, but that doesn't prevent the shrapnel from the masonry from flying all around into the village square and neighboring homes.

War sucks. The idea that there can be pinprick attacks on precisely the correct targets is a USAF canard that has been recycled since WW2 and the 8th Army Air Force.

36

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 11:03am

Strategist says

When you go after terrorists, innocent people are bound to die.

Prove it.

Read your list of victims above. None of them were intentionally killed.

If anything, I would argue that the deaths of innocents causes terrorism. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighters. According to the USA Patriot Act, George Washington and the other founding fathers were terrorists.

True. Does not mean we should not go after terrorists.

If our goal is to prevent terrorism, then we have to think how we would react if someone blew up an elementary school killing hundreds of our children. Then we must realize that other people would react the exact same way when we do this to them. Terrorist is a label used to dehumanize other people. It's no different than the Nazis referring to Jews as rats and criminals.

How would you define or label the 19 who flew into WTC. ??

That's exactly how many in our country portray human beings they label as terrorists. And that's all the word terrorist is, a god-damn label used to circumvent reason and specific evidence.

The Nazis may have labeled Jews as terrorists, but the Jews were still innocent. Terrorists who blow up children are not innocent. They are terrorists.

37

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 11:05am

thunderlips11 says

Well said. One of the largest problems with our society is that most Americans value only American lives. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them.

So you will back me up when I say terrorists groups who slaughter and rape women in Africa should be bombed?

38

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 11:07am

Strategist says

In that scenario I would get biased and speak out against drone strikes. As that has not happened I can still be rational.

A valid point. However, you are neglecting your bias due to the fact that you live in the country using the drone strikes and not the country enduring the drone strikes.

Not at all. If we had that situation in America, I would welcome Mexico and Canada to conduct drone strikes in America.

39

Strategist 2014 Jun 25, 11:14am

Yes, religion is bad and it causes people to do evil things. However, the evil done by Al Qaeda does not justify the evil done by the U.S. You might as well say that Al Qaeda killed some Americans, so it's fine for anyone to gun down Americans. Same logic.

Killing Al Qaeda is fully justified and not evil, but moral. We don't have evil intentions.

As for suicide bombing, that just means the enemy is braver. Suicide bombings are evil because they are bombings and kill others, not because of the suicide.

Americans prefer to kill safely from a distance by pushing a button. That's cowardly. Smart perhaps, but cowardly. So our killing style is nothing to brag about. Switch technological levels and the U.S. would be using guerrilla tactics like it did during the American Revolution and Al Qaeda would be killing Americans from 10 miles away with Apache helicopters. The difference between the warfare techniques is due to the asymmetric technology and infrastructure.

Terrorists are not brave. They are brainwashed cowards. What's wrong with you?
Brave people are heroes. Are the suicide bombers your heroes?
Sure we would use guerilla warfare if we had to, but we would not be targeting innocent women and children. That is what makes us good.

http://vimeo.com/63389575

Now I will say that the people in our society overall are more moral than the people in the Middle East, but that is due primarily to the fact that science has quelled religion in our society allowing rational minds to prevail. Religion causes immorality, whereas rational thought and naturalism advances morality.

I could not agree more. Have I convinced you on our disagreements?

40 Blurtman 2014 Jun 25, 1:08pm

These murderers are terrorists. Let's attack the country that sanctions this violence.

"3 years ago today, on April 5, 2010 Wikileaks released this leaked video footage from a U.S. Apache attack helicopter, which shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and about a dozen other people standing around together as the Apache blows them all to pieces with 30mm cannons, in a public square in Eastern Baghdad in 2007.

After the helicopter murders this group, a minivan arrives on the scene and some people attempt to transport some of the wounded to a hospital. These rescuers are fired upon as well, along with the children they had in the vehicle.

The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths occurred. They refused to release the video to Reuters, for an investigation of the murders. But fortunately for us, and unfortunately for them, Private Bradley Manning released the video to the folks at Wikileaks, who decrypted it and shared it under the name "Collateral Murder".

41 Blurtman 2014 Jun 25, 1:11pm

Let's attack the terrorist country that backed this serial killer.

"Gen. Augusto Pinochet led a coup against democratically elected Salvador Allende on the same date. With the support of the United States military, Pinochet began a bloody regime that lasted 17 years, killing thousands and torturing nearly 40,000 people."

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/chiles_9_11_40_years_since_pinochets_us-backed_coup_20130911

42

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 1:37pm

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

When you go after terrorists, innocent people are bound to die.

Prove it.

Read your list of victims above. None of them were intentionally killed.

1. Even if you were right, that does not prove your assertion that innocent people must die to fight terrorism.

2. You are wrong. Each person was deliberately killed. They do not have to be the target in order to have been deliberately killed. There was always a person who decided that attempting to get the target merit killing some innocents in the area. That person made the deliberate choice to use a weapons system despite the resulting innocent deaths. Apathy does not wash away guilt. Simply because one murders others, not out of hate, but out of apathy does not make the crime any less.

True. Does not mean we should not go after terrorists.

The question is how to go after so-called terrorists. Our current techniques simply increase the amount of terrorism in the world. We create entire generations of young people who's lifetime goal will be vengeance against us for our evil acts. This makes us less safe.

How would you define or label the 19 who flew into WTC. ??

I don't. It is not necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to prosecute him in an open and just court. Nor is it necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to condemn his actions.

The Nazis may have labeled Jews as terrorists, but the Jews were still innocent. Terrorists who blow up children are not innocent. They are terrorists.

I agree. And when America blows up children, America is not innocent. America politicians go give the orders are terrorists. American soldiers who carry out those orders are terrorists. American citizens who support these policies are terrorists. The same standard applies to all.

So you will back me up when I say terrorists groups who slaughter and rape women in Africa should be bombed?

Not if it means bombing innocent women in their camps. I have no problem taking out those who are actively trying to rape or murder others. I have a big problem with killing innocent bystanders. There are rapists roaming the streets of New York City right now. Should we nuke New York?
Strategist says

Killing Al Qaeda is fully justified and not evil, but moral.

The phrase "killing Al Qaeda" is meaningless. One kills people, not organizations. And yes, killing people you consider evil or subhuman is still evil. At best it is the lesser of evils, but it is still evil.

Furthermore, considering those persons to be subhuman makes the act even more evil.

We don't have evil intentions.

Bull-fucking-shit. America is a country that has committed over a dozen genocides, has practiced slavery for hundreds of years and still does, and sexually assaults over 2.5 million of its citizens every year via strip searches and body cavity searches. America has supported genocidal dictators in South America, practice torture for decades (yes, even before Gitmo and 9/11), and threatened war with nations if they do not give up their natural resources to us.

To say that our nation has not acted on extremely selfish and evil intentions is utterly ridiculous.

Terrorists are not brave. They are brainwashed cowards. What's wrong with you?

Brave people are heroes. Are the suicide bombers your heroes?

You're a fucking idiot and emotionally immature.

The world brave means overcoming fear. There is nothing braver than overcoming the fear of death to accomplish something, which is exactly what suicide bombers do.

But like most retarded idiots, you cannot distinguish between the dichotomy of bravery/cowardice and the dichotomy of good/evil. Bravery is not inherently good. Bravery can be used to commit acts of evil, and fear can be used to commit acts of good. The attributes are independent.

Being brave does not make one a hero. Only a fool believes that. The NAZI soldier who rushes into battle to slaughter American G.I.s sure as fuck was brave. That does not mean he was on the side of good.

To say that suicide bombers are cowards is the god-damn stupidest thing ever said on this planet. If they were cowards, they would be less dangerous because fear would keep them from blowing up themselves and others.

Just because you want to use the word coward to insult someone, doesn't make them a coward. Just because you want to reserve the word brave for only people your puny mind considers heroes doesn't mean the fighters on the side of evil aren't brave. It just means you are stupid and are underestimating the enemy.

And to try to imply that my words in any way suggested that suicide bombers are heroes, not only shows your utter inability to comprehend my writings, but it also shows a complete lack of character. Only people with indefensible positions use Straw Man arguments.

43

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 1:42pm

Collateral Murder

Exactly. Our country has committed the same atrocities as our enemies. We have committed far more acts of terrorism than they have, and in doing so, we have motivated much of the world to despise us with good cause.

The answer to terrorism is not to respond with more terrorism, but to undermine the foundation that supports terrorism including both religion and corporate greed. Reigning in our warfare industry, preventing our corporations from exploiting poor nations, and advancing education, especially scientific education, in the Middle East are the most effective ways we can eliminate terrorism for good.

You want to stop terrorism? Don't bomb schools; build them. An educated population is the greatest fear of Islamic terrorist groups. Why do you think they are so scared of girls getting education?

44 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 1:46pm

So we are talking about the invasion of Iraq. And it was no surprise that civilians would be blown to bits and burned alive during the invasion and subsequent aggression.

100K died from "acts of Violence"... well that could be anything.

And how many Iraqi insurgence were killed by Iraqi govt forces and vice versa... and if you bother to notice... more have killed each other than by coalition forces.

Today did you notice who is killing who ?

45 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 1:50pm

You want to stop terrorism? Don't bomb schools; build them. An educated population is the greatest fear of Islamic terrorist groups. Why do you think they are so scared of girls getting education?

No wonder they have been teaching Nuclear physics in the middle east, for several decades...

46 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 1:52pm

Bull-fucking-shit. America is a country that has committed over a dozen genocides, has practiced slavery for hundreds of years and still does, and sexually assaults over 2.5 million of its citizens every year via strip searches and body cavity searches. America has supported genocidal dictators in South America, practice torture for decades (yes, even before Gitmo and 9/11), and threatened war with nations if they do not give up their natural resources to us.

Laughable... only Dan comes up with the same nonsense...

47

Dan8267 2014 Jun 25, 1:55pm

Laughable... only Dan comes up with the same nonsense...

Hey pussy, you're free to try to contradict any of the things I said. I'm free to kick your ass with mountains of evidence. Please do challenge me. I enjoy making you look the fool.

48 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 2:01pm

PAKISTAN

Name | Age | Gender

Noor Aziz | 8 | male

Abdul Wasit | 17 | male

Noor Syed | 8 | male

Wajid Noor | 9 | male

Syed Wali Shah | 7 | male

Ayeesha | 3 | female

Qari Alamzeb | 14| male

Shoaib | 8 | male

Been to Chicago lately ? Might want to check the Gang infested hoods one day..

49 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 2:02pm

Hey pussy, you're free to try to contradict any of the things I said. I'm free to kick your ass with mountains of evidence. Please do challenge me. I enjoy making you look the fool.

Same old bull shit ... typical ! well forget it .. not going to change.. so have a good cry and stick your tonge ups some terrorists ass and call him daddy..... Drones are flying killing off the bad guys... so fuck you!

50 thomaswong.1986 2014 Jun 25, 2:04pm

another fucking bad guy going down.. every fucking day!

they started it .. we will finish it...

and some fucking Socialist Prick has a problem with it.. laughable..

51

monkframe 2014 Jun 25, 2:09pm

And you're next...

52 Blurtman 2014 Jun 25, 2:32pm

Blurtman says

So we are talking about the invasion of Iraq. And it was no surprise that civilians would be blown to bits and burned alive during the invasion and subsequent aggression.

100K died from "acts of Violence"... well that could be anything.

And how many Iraqi insurgence were killed by Iraqi govt forces and vice versa... and if you bother to notice... more have killed each other than by coalition forces.

Today did you notice who is killing who ?

Wrongo. Read on. Coalition (i.e., USA) warplanes were described as the cause.

53

Y 2014 Jun 25, 2:41pm

Try to be compassionate and not so hard on them.
They are low information posters.
It's not their fault.
They live in some doped up nirvinaworld where everybody's just happy and the world is devoid of people wanting to hack your head off.
In reality, they just want to be left alone to smoke their stash....

and some fucking Socialist Prick has a problem with it.. laughable..

54

Dan8267 2014 Jun 26, 1:54pm

Drones are flying killing off the bad guys... so fuck you!

The problem is that they are killing dozens of innocent men, women, and children for every "bad guy" killed, which you would know if you actually read the evidence presented to you, dumb fuck.

3. I am not for drone strikes as they are being operated by the Obama administration because for every alleged terrorist killed by a drone strike, 10 to 50 innocent people including children are killed

But hey, if killing multitudes of innocents is justified to get one bad guy then let's start with your family. Until you're willing to sacrifice them to get a bad guy, you can take your hypocrisy and shove it up your ass.

55

monkframe 2014 Jun 26, 1:58pm

Hey, they are just "little brown ones" (G. H. W. Bush) who cares?

56

Y 2014 Jun 26, 2:17pm

Around these parts that could be taken as a compliment.

Until you're willing to sacrifice them to get a bad guy, you can take your hypocrisy and shove it up your ass.

57

Strategist 2014 Jun 26, 2:39pm

1. Even if you were right, that does not prove your assertion that innocent people must die to fight terrorism.

Innocent people are always the victims of any conflict. We do our best to avoid the deaths of innocent people, while terrorists do their best to kill innocent people.

2. You are wrong. Each person was deliberately killed. They do not have to be the target in order to have been deliberately killed. There was always a person who decided that attempting to get the target merit killing some innocents in the area. That person made the deliberate choice to use a weapons system despite the resulting innocent deaths. Apathy does not wash away guilt. Simply because one murders others, not out of hate, but out of apathy does not make the crime any less.

No was except the terrorists are deliberately killed. By your logic all wars are murder, which is an entirely different philosophical argument.

Strategist says

True. Does not mean we should not go after terrorists.

The question is how to go after so-called terrorists. Our current techniques simply increase the amount of terrorism in the world. We create entire generations of young people who's lifetime goal will be vengeance against us for our evil acts. This makes us less safe.

OK, how would you go after terrorists?

Strategist says

How would you define or label the 19 who flew into WTC. ??

I don't. It is not necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to prosecute him in an open and just court. Nor is it necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to condemn his actions.

You have no problem claiming Americans are murderers. Kind of hypocritical isn't it.
We want to dehumanize terrorists, we want to kill them even more. Killing them is what saves innocent lives.

Strategist says

The Nazis may have labeled Jews as terrorists, but the Jews were still innocent. Terrorists who blow up children are not innocent. They are terrorists.

I agree. And when America blows up children, America is not innocent. America politicians go give the orders are terrorists. American soldiers who carry out those orders are terrorists. American citizens who support these policies are terrorists. The same standard applies to all.

Wow. You don't want to label terrorists who blow up children, but have no problem calling Americans who support killing terrorists, as being terrorists. Does not sound rational to me.

Strategist says

Terrorists are not brave. They are brainwashed cowards. What's wrong with you?

Brave people are heroes. Are the suicide bombers your heroes?

You're a fucking idiot and emotionally immature.

I just won the debate. I knew you had no chance at all. :)

58 jkaldi1 2014 Jun 26, 3:18pm

. One of the largest problems with our society is that most Americans value only American lives. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them.

I seriously cannot agree more on this one. what you stated is a hard FACT ! . its just too deep in the culture and clearly exposes the value we put on non-white lives.
i guess most americans view them like animals and the only thing that matters is strategic interest.
Just watch TV and general discussion about the iraq war .
I have watched 100s of them in TV and radio.
All the talk is only about how many dollars we lost and the 1/10000 ratio american lives that were lost and zero ..zilch ..nada ...talk about thousands of innocent lives of iraqi people !
an iraqi parent or kid is no different than any other american parent or kid.
The fact that you could just go kill thousands of people as a "preemptive" measure shows the callousness and disregard for non-white lives .

imagine china bombs the whole city of sanfrancisco because their internal reports showed that we might be planning on nuking them. after that imagine, the only talk in china is on how much money they unnecessarily lost on the bombs
then ..would you view them as humans with empathy towards other humans or would you view them as monsters ?

when was the last time you actually heard about the total count of iraqi people who died due to bush war on cnn/fox/cnbc..etc? these are channels which probably will spend 2 hours with talking heads on the war but not one mention of the count.

same with all other american wars .

and people wonder why all other countries hate us.

from wiki:
" A large-scale survey of Iraqi households by UNICEF, published in 2012, estimated that between 800,000 and a million Iraqi children under 18 â€“ or about five percent of Iraqi children â€“ have lost one or both of their parents"

59

Y 2014 Jun 26, 10:56pm

Blame it on Germany and Japan.
They taught us a lot of bad things, starting world wars and dragging us into it all.
The result of that is the industrial military complex you see today.
Now, nobody fucks with us. We learned our lesson. The world is full of savage animals who would enslave or behead you if given the chance.
You take the high ground because you have not experienced the nazi foot on your throat, nor the heat of the human ovens. You have reaped the protected and rights filled life other people in oppressive nations can only dream about. You are soft and naive about what lies beyond your borders.

Your statement below demonstrates ignorance of the ways of the world.
You want callousness and disregard for any human life? Go after Burger King and McDonalds and the shit they serve that will eventually kill you.

jkaldi1 says

The fact that you could just go kill thousands of people as a "preemptive" measure shows the callousness and disregard for non-white lives .

60 Blurtman 2014 Jun 26, 11:41pm

jkaldi1 says

imagine china bombs the whole city of sanfrancisco because their internal reports showed that we might be planning on nuking them. after that imagine, the only talk in china is on how much money they unnecessarily lost on the bombs

then ..would you view them as humans with empathy towards other humans or would you view them as monsters ?

Every American knows there were no WMD's in Iraq, and that we invaded a country under false pretexts. Sure, the US media was complicit in hiding the grim realities of dead civilians. Sure, the media implied that the bombs were so smart that they only killed the bad guys when they exploded, and not the nearby innocents. And yes, many Americans believed that Iraq had something to do with 9-11 at the time of the invasion. But most Americans, especially now that a destabilized Iraq is coming apart which IS being covered by the US media, know that the war was a huge mistake, although as you point out, they don't think the war was a mistake because the USA killed so many Iraqi people, and made a living hell for the rest.

So are Americans basically evil? Are they uncaring pigs who merely want to consume? Are they ignorant xenophobes?

One thing is for certain - all Americans have blood on their hands.

61 jkaldi1 2014 Jun 27, 3:28am