patrick.net

So yes, there definitely are centuries-old people who have lived there.

Yes, but they were not a Palestine people with a single culture called Palestine.

Again, I have no skin in the game, so I'm just going by the recorded history. If you want a Palestinian state and you believe that it will only happen if people there is an ancient line of Palestinian people, then of course you won't accept that the later premise is a lie. All I can say is that the later premise is not necessary or even helpful. Whether or not a Palestinian state should exist has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is a long-lost Palestinian state.

I repeat: I have no objection to a Palestinian state. But I don't have to accept the lie that the there has ever been a Palestinian people before 1945. This is just a fact, like it or not.

Quite frankly, those who want a Palestinian state should embrace the truth as well, as they are far less likely to get it if it is based on a lie that everyone already knows is a lie.

Here's the history from yet another source.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/O7ByJb7QQ9U

I don't write history, but I do acknowledge it.

The area has been known as Palestine since before the Common Era, and is even mentioned in the bible as such (by the root word for Palestine).

The Palestine of the Bible has nothing to do with modern Palestines. National borders have been redrawn many times over the century in that area. Many nation-states and cultures have risen and fallen. It is completely meaningless to make such a connection between the two.

And again, even if there was such a connection, it would provide no more justification for a Palestinian state than America claiming territory in all of Africa because Americans, like all people, can trace their ancestry to Africa. The lie of a Palestine culture DOES NOT JUSTIFY a Palestinian state.

And you don't need that lie to justify a Palestinian state. The only justification for a Palestinian state is that lots of people want it. And that should be enough justification in itself. So if you want me to support the Palestinian state, you have to acknowledge that this and only this is the justification for that state.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vi7QQ5pO7_A

Not sure if you're trolling or if you're just as ridiculous a Zionist as bgamall4 is an anti-Zionist. You're really just making stuff up now and not saying anything consistent with the factual record.

If you think that, just look at the videos I posted. Trolling is not expressing a point-of-view you don't like. The facts are

1. Both sides have committed atrocities.
2. Neither side can live with the other.
3. This whole mess is caused by the stupid religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And they are all false religions that have cause far more problems than they are worth.
4. There is nothing holy or supernatural about the land in the Middle East. Human beings are just stupid sometimes and obsess over things that don't matter.
5. The cheapest, least violent, and most effective solution is to
- First move Israel, dirt and all, to a new location far away from the Middle East.
- Take part of Saudi Arabia near where Israel was and create a Palestinian state or several as you know different groups will be fighting for power of that state.

And that's the only way this stupid problem is going to be solved.

Finally, anyone who thinks that either side is 100% right is a god-damn bigot. Any objective person would be disgusted by both sides.

I guess it takes being an atheist to be objective on this subject matter.

Christ, even Kirk got this right. Slightly different subject, but same damn thing.

146 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 7:35am

The lie of a Palestine culture DOES NOT JUSTIFY a Palestinian state.

There are people who lived there for centuries who got displaced, yes or no? What people were they if they weren't Palestinian? I'd again point out that other Arabs aren't embracing them either. Again, this is the "there are no Mexicans in Texas" argument -- complete nonsense.

Again, I have no skin in the game, so I'm just going by the recorded history.

Clearly you do have skin in the game and you aren't going by recorded history, unless you're going by the false Golda Meir propaganda. But really, you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself at this point. You are expressing a hardcore extremist Zionist position here, so you're not within even mainstream Israeli thought, and it's pretty pointless to discuss this with a fact-denier. Good day, sir.

147

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 7:45am

You are expressing a hardcore extremist Zionist position here, so you're not within even mainstream Israeli thought, and it's pretty pointless to discuss this with a fact-denier.

They way you tell someone is heavily invested in one side of a conflict is when they think everyone who doesn't agree with them must be on the other side.

If you think I'm a hardcore extremist Zionist, you are crazy. The other side accuses me of being a pro-Palestinian extremist. I cannot be both. In reality I'm neither.

In my response to you I've stated explicitly that
1. Israel should be moved out of the area.
2. A Palestinian state, or several, should be created.

How the fuck did you get "hardcore extremist Zionist" out of that? The only answer is that you are an extremist, for only an extremist would see someone in the center as being the opposite extreme.

And this reinforces my point that both sides are wrong and won't get along together. They absolutely hate each other as people on both sides of this debate demonstrate clearly. This is why a two-state in the same area solution will fail. The two spoiled fighting children need to be physically separated. The fact that you attacked me, a potential ally of your cause, proves this.

148 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 7:50am

The fact that you attacked me, a potential ally of your cause, proves this.

I don't particularly have a cause, actually, but thanks for trying. If I were to be pressed, I'd suggest that some sort of two-state solution might be workable, rather than the current apartheid, if you get the right people at the table. That's probably not going to happen with Israel's current government which seems to encourage settlements, and previous leaders failed their people when there were viable talks had.

Again, asserting that there is no such thing as Palestine or a Palestinian people is absolute nonsense, regardless of what side you're on. I'm suggesting that's a hardcore extremist Zionist position, which it is. I haven't commented on the rest and I'm not sure how you'd determine you're an ally to my non-existent cause when I haven't even stated what my cause is.

149

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 8:05am

I'm suggesting that's a hardcore extremist Zionist position

How the fuck can a hardcore atheist be a hardcore extremist Zionist?

Isn't the belief in a god, in fact a particular god, a prerequisite for being in the nonsensical concept of a "holy land"?

This discussion is proof that religion, all religion, is poison.

As for your belief that their is a Palestinian history that extends prior to the 20th century, provide me proof -- and no, the Bible doesn't count -- and I'll gladly accept it. All the history I've read from reasonable sources say otherwise and I'm not going to just take your word for it because you are emotionally attached to that belief. I demand evidence.

Both the Palestine and the Israel of today are not the same as those in the Bronze Age. That's just a ridiculous statement. The Israel of today is a completely different and new nation-state founded by modern people. The Palestine proposed state would be a completely different and new nation-state founded by modern people. Giving X the same name as Y does not make X equal Y. That's a lie.

Hell, the modern Olympics are not the same institution as the ancient Greek Olympics. A corporation just decided to trademark the term to market their profit-making venture as being related to the ancient Olympic games. They aren't. And quite frankly, that greedy corporation should not have a trademark on a term from antiquity.

The whole Israel / Palestine thing is just as much marketing bullshit.

Again, give me evidence, not your opinion, if you think this is wrong. I want to see a detailed time line of this culture and an explanation of why all the counter-evidence I posted is wrong.

I don't give two flying fucks what story is the truth; I only care that the truth is acknowledge what-the-fuck-ever it happens to be. Get that through your head before you respond. And if you still think I'm playing for the other team, don't bother responding. I routing against both teams at this point.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and kill every god and prophet that ever existed -- playing wack-a-mole if necessary -- as it would save countless other lives.

150

The Original Bankster 2014 Jul 29, 8:17am

I repeat: I have no objection to a Palestinian state.

neither did the Israelis, that's why they created Gaza. Unforuntely the first thing the Gazans did when they got their independence was 1) destroy whatever useful structures remained from the Israelis(greenhouses) 2) proceeded to build tunnels and launch rockets.

Gary's understanding of the conflict verges on criminally insane.

151

curious2 2014 Jul 29, 8:56am

Americans, like all people, can trace their ancestry to Africa.

This is my favorite comment in the whole thread. It applies equally to the religious groups fighting over their supposed "holy land," and the American Indians, and the Russian separatists in Ukraine, everybody. Tell them all to go back to Africa, and let the Ugandans try to contend with every warring faction from everywhere.

Also, in response to the OP, violent crime probably rises and falls with the population: for example, where there are no people at all, I would guess there are probably few violent crimes. (On the other hand, it is difficult to know for certain; if one tree assaults another, and nobody hears it, will there be a police report?)

So yes, there definitely are centuries-old people who have lived there.

I would love to meet these people. In my whole life, I have never met anyone older than one century. Imagine being able to ask somebody who has lived there for centuries, like a character out of Highlander, what was it really like back then, what did the food taste like, what card games did they play, what has changed since, what has been gained and what has been lost. I would have questions for years.

152

CL 2014 Jul 29, 9:22am

From Wikipedia,

"The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[6] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called PalaistinÃª" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.[7][8][9][10][11][12] Approximately a century later, Aristotle used a similar definition in Meteorology, writing "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them," understood by scholars to be a reference to the Dead Sea.[13] Later writers such as Polemon and Pausanias also used the term to refer to the same region."

153 dublin hillz 2014 Jul 29, 9:25am

OK, I think we can all agree that a muslim country will win a world cup when hell freezes over....

154

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 9:27am

This is my favorite comment in the whole thread. It applies equally to the religious groups fighting over their supposed "holy land," and the American Indians, and the Russian separatists in Ukraine, everybody.

So damn true. And that's why we can't justify warfare based on "well, some of my ancestors lived on that land for some of history". Every piece of land has been fought over and exchanged hands many times. It's time to get over it. There is plenty of land for everyone on this planet.

What's your opinion of corntrollio? A nut job?

155 jkaldi1 2014 Jul 29, 9:41am

somebody watching from the space will look at the sophisticated apes that we are and wonder why we are killing each other over something that has very little to do with GDP growth and upliftment of human condition.
Land is a don't care when it comes to development.
its not the stone age anymore when we only relied on snatching from somebody because we could not produce anything !

Today, in this globalized world, any country or society can develop irrespective of what land they have and where they have. You only need the willingness ,hard work and basic intelligence

we all know that palestine can drop all conflict tomorrow and start focusing on development and they will have nothing to complain about in 20 years. but they won't do it.

nobody likes to do hard work but complain about somebody else for their misery

Most political leaders will validate this by providing the scapegoat : not following religion, neighbouring countries, minorities , caste , race , historic conflict ...you name it.

156

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 9:44am

Zionist internet videos?

Any evidence that does not support your political agenda, you will call Zionist. Hell, you use the word Zionist like Fox News uses the term liberal, as meaning subhuman. You're hatred comes out clearly, and it makes your side look like the villains. By posting such hateful and irrational rhetoric, you are doing more to reduce the support for a Palestinian state than Israel ever could.

Perhaps you should take a more constructive approach. Listen to the last video I posted. Transcript the text as you listen to it. Yes, line by line. Then go over every single line and question whether it is right or wrong by doing actual research to both support and oppose it.

Present all the evidence for both sides and write a thoughtful analysis of which side has better support. Do this for every single line in your transcript. Literally use the following form

Statement 1: On May 16, 2011 The New York Times published an op-ed titled, "The Long Overdue Palestinian State", by Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian National Authority.

Factual Breakdown

Factoid 1.1: NYT published article "The Long Overdue Palestinian State" by Mahmoud Abbas.

Factoid confirmed at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/opinion/17abbas.html

Factiod 1.2: The article was published on May 16, 2011.

Factoid confirmed by previous link.

Factoid 1.3: Mahmoud Abbas was or is a member of the Palestinian National Authority.

Factoid confirmed at http://www.biography.com/people/mahmoud-abbas-37266

Quote: Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority in 2005, and became the unofficial president of the State of Palestine in 2008.

Do that for every line in the transcript you generate. If this is too much effort, then you're too damn lazy for anyone to take your opinion seriously and there is no reason anyone should believe you when you say a source is inaccurate or deceitful.

Hell, I doubt you even listened to the video before you declared it Zionist propaganda. The video is so matter-of-fact and neutral tone that it's ridiculous to call it propaganda. Of course, you'd actually would know that if you watched the video before criticizing it.

Bitching and moaning about how evil the other side is and how your side does no wrong and everything's a Zionist conspiracy is not going to convince me or any other rational person that your political agenda is a good one. What will convince us is a thoughtful, evidence based argument. You can start redeeming yourself by completing the transcript and analysis I started above. Until then, your opinion means nothing.

157 dublin hillz 2014 Jul 29, 9:55am

israel vs palestinians seems to be the biggest foreign partisan issue in united states. For the most part, conservatives back israel and liberals back palestinians. This is somewhat ironic because jews rejected jesus/new testament and islam is the most repressive/conservative religion of all.

158

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 9:59am

dublin hillz says

liberals back palestinians.

How do liberals back Palestinians? I was just called a Zionist extremist by one of the Palestinian nut jobs, and I'm the most liberal person on Patrick.net. (Well, probably. I don't even think nudism or prostitution should be illegal.)

As a liberal, I'm appalled at both sides. And quite frankly, I don't care which side is worse. I only care about fixing the damn problem and ending this asinine violence.

159

curious2 2014 Jul 29, 10:12am

What's your opinion of corntrollio? A nut job?

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage. People who might seem quite reasonable if you met them in person, can seem totally different when all you see is their text on your screen. I check the daily news from various sources, though at times I wonder why even bother, and I've noticed that coverage of the fighting in and around Gaza varies dramatically depending on the source. American commercial news quotes only Israeli government officials, while the alternative press (e.g. Democracy Now) quotes only Palestinians and dissenters within Israel. One thing I've noticed: nobody reports any dissenters from within Gaza; I don't know if anybody there dares to criticize Hamas and Hezbollah. If you put five Israelis in a room, you get 10 opinions, but no matter how many Gazans get interviewed, they all seem to cheer Hamas and blame the Israelis for everything. I watched a BBC reporter interview refugees at a school, and during the interview Hamas fired a rocket from very nearby; the schoolchildren cheered, the adults cheered, nobody dared suggest that launching rockets from a school zone might be a bad idea. I saw another report, on France 24, of a rocket that had killed many children; evidence indicated it had been a Hamas rocket that misfired, but nobody on the street seemed to consider that possibility (Hamas rockets have divine guidance from Allah, apparently); everyone on the street was vowing revenge against Israel. At the U.N. in New York, there have been protests against Israeli policy and rallies in support of Israel, and each side had its share of Jewish New Yorkers; what seems missing from the debate is any sign of any Palestinian questioning the wisdom or efficacy of Hamas and Hezbollah strategy - or even acknowledging that, so far at least, it hasn't achieved its stated objectives. If a person gets all his news from a source that quotes only one side, his opinions may become rather lopsided, and it is an irony of the Internet that as more information has become available, many have chosen to indulge confirmation bias and read only what they want to read.

160 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 10:28am

Bitching and moaning about how evil the other side is and how your side does no wrong and everything's a Zionist conspiracy is not going to convince me or any other rational person that your political agenda is a good one.

Again, I'm not on a side and have no agenda (which I clearly stated above) -- I'm simply saying you're off your rocker for saying there's no such thing as Palestinian people. This seems to be really hard for you to understand because maybe there's too much nuance in it.

I was just called a Zionist extremist by one of the Palestinian nut jobs

Again, I never called you a Zionist extremist (your Texican Israeli idea is clearly not Zionist). I said that you hold an extremist Zionist position with respect to the existence of Palestine and Palestinians, i.e. when you said there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinian people. What I stated is completely uncontroversial, and even Israelis would agree that you're off your rocker on this one. It's a far subtler point than you're capable of understanding, apparently.

You still refuse to answer my questions, because you know you're being disingenuous:
1) There were people who lived in Palestine prior to the state of Israel existing. Those people got displaced, right? Yes or no?
2) Do these people who lived there want their homes back or adequate compensation for the loss of them? Yes or no?

You know, the answer is "yes" to both, which makes you dead wrong.

161 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 10:34am

Dan8267 says

Then the Palestinians -- who are just emigrants from various other Middle Eastern countries

Where are you getting this? Last I checked, Palestinians aren't wanted in other Arab countries, despite being refugees there. They are basically the Arab world's N-word in those countries.

Dan8267 says

The only reason the so-called Palestinians want it is because Jews are occupying it

Yes, because there's no such concept as "the right of return." In addition, genetic studies have shown that Muslim Palestinians are descendents of the Jews and Christians of the Levant, so there's definitely more to it than "Jews are occupying it." And on that note, let's not forget that there are many Christian Palestinians (typically orthodox), and that not all are Muslim.

The irony is that a huge percentage of Israeli Jews (not talking about the Russian and American Jews who moved there) and Muslim Palestinians are related quite a bit genetically.

You seem to have an extremely right-wing view about the occupied territory, one that is considerably outside the mainstream.

Both of Dan's original quotes above are complete Zionist positions -- I'm not sure how anyone can disagree there. It's straight out of the Golda Meir playbook. The other stuff he says quite obviously not Zionist (move the Israelis to Texas so they can become Mexicans instead of the Palestinians), and I've already pointed that out before.

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage.

You generally seem like a reasonable person in other threads, but read Dan8267's quote above and tell me if I'm being unreasonable in characterizing exactly what he said.

Listen to the last video I posted. Transcript the text as you listen to it.

As for your video task, get real, buddy. Did you see the book cover at the front:

A Century of Palestinian Rejectionism and Jew Hatred by Sol Stern

Basically, you found the most biased source you could find. If you thought this refutes your having a Zionist view with respect to Palestine and Palestinians, you're sadly mistaken. How much more disingenuous could you be? It's fucking unbelievable.

162

curious2 2014 Jul 29, 11:40am

curious2 says

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage.

You generally seem like a reasonable person in other threads, but read Dan8267's quote above and tell me if I'm being unreasonable in characterizing exactly what he said.

You seem to have an extremely right-wing view about the occupied territory, one that is considerably outside the mainstream.

Both of Dan's original quotes above are complete Zionist positions -- I'm not sure how anyone can disagree there. It's straight out of the Golda Meir playbook.

Thank you for saying that I generally seem like a reasonable person elsewhere, I do try. Honestly I think that when discussing this topic people tend to get upset with each other, because they are relying on different sources that say opposite things. I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it. On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party. If I've alienated both sides equally, then perhaps I may say that I don't feel equipped to solve the problems of that part of the world; they've been fighting longer than I can remember and I don't even know why it still makes the news, the sun rose and set and there was fighting in Israel/Palestine/whatever. My own view is that the 100,000 Americans who die each day merit each as much concern as each of the 1,000 Palestinians and maybe 20 Israelis who have died in the latest round of fighting. The commercial news bandwagon distracts the masses with the latest war in whatever country we're for or against, keeping the masses distracted, like something out of George Orwell's 1984. I'm much more interested in what the hospital corporations are doing to Americans, you or someone you care about could be next, while the corporate publicists distract you with far away fights.

163

Strategist 2014 Jul 29, 11:44am

Dan8267 says

How the fuck can a hardcore atheist be a hardcore extremist Zionist?

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes. David Ben-Gurion, the father of Israel, the George Washington of Israel, was an avowed atheist.

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"
So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

164

Strategist 2014 Jul 29, 12:11pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22qaddafi.html?_r=0

Strategist says

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"

So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

I rest my case. God gave Israel to the Jews in the Old Testament. That was then and this is now. God did not give Israel to the Zionists. They took it without permission.

So Israel belongs to the Jews?

165

turtledove 2014 Jul 29, 12:11pm

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekendâ€™s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

But everywhere one looks, among the speeches and the desperate diplomacy, there is no real way forward. A just and lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians is possible, but it lies in the history of the people of this conflicted land, and not in the tired rhetoric of partition and two-state solutions.

Although itâ€™s hard to realize after the horrors weâ€™ve just witnessed, the state of war between the Jews and Palestinians has not always existed. In fact, many of the divisions between Jews and Palestinians are recent ones. The very name â€œPalestineâ€ was commonly used to describe the whole area, even by the Jews who lived there, until 1948, when the name â€œIsraelâ€ came into use.

Jews and Muslims are cousins descended from Abraham. Throughout the centuries both faced cruel persecution and often found refuge with one another. Arabs sheltered Jews and protected them after maltreatment at the hands of the Romans and their expulsion from Spain in the Middle Ages.

The history of Israel/Palestine is not remarkable by regional standards â€” a country inhabited by different peoples, with rule passing among many tribes, nations and ethnic groups; a country that has withstood many wars and waves of peoples from all directions. This is why it gets so complicated when members of either party claims the right to assert that it is their land.

The basis for the modern State of Israel is the persecution of the Jewish people, which is undeniable. The Jews have been held captive, massacred, disadvantaged in every possible fashion by the Egyptians, the Romans, the English, the Russians, the Babylonians, the Canaanites and, most recently, the Germans under Hitler. The Jewish people want and deserve their homeland.

But the Palestinians too have a history of persecution, and they view the coastal towns of Haifa, Acre, Jaffa and others as the land of their forefathers, passed from generation to generation, until only a short time ago.

Thus the Palestinians believe that what is now called Israel forms part of their nation, even were they to secure the West Bank and Gaza. And the Jews believe that the West Bank is Samaria and Judea, part of their homeland, even if a Palestinian state were established there. Now, as Gaza still smolders, calls for a two-state solution or partition persist. But neither will work.

A two-state solution will create an unacceptable security threat to Israel. An armed Arab state, presumably in the West Bank, would give Israel less than 10 miles of strategic depth at its narrowest point. Further, a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would do little to resolve the problem of refugees. Any situation that keeps the majority of Palestinians in refugee camps and does not offer a solution within the historical borders of Israel/Palestine is not a solution at all.

For the same reasons, the older idea of partition of the West Bank into Jewish and Arab areas, with buffer zones between them, wonâ€™t work. The Palestinian-held areas could not accommodate all of the refugees, and buffer zones symbolize exclusion and breed tension. Israelis and Palestinians have also become increasingly intertwined, economically and politically.

In absolute terms, the two movements must remain in perpetual war or a compromise must be reached. The compromise is one state for all, an â€œIsratineâ€ that would allow the people in each party to feel that they live in all of the disputed land and they are not deprived of any one part of it.

A key prerequisite for peace is the right of return for Palestinian refugees to the homes their families left behind in 1948. It is an injustice that Jews who were not originally inhabitants of Palestine, nor were their ancestors, can move in from abroad while Palestinians who were displaced only a relatively short time ago should not be so permitted.

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 â€” violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never â€œun-welcomed.â€ Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

Assimilation is already a fact of life in Israel. There are more than one million Muslim Arabs in Israel; they possess Israeli nationality and take part in political life with the Jews, forming political parties. On the other side, there are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Israeli factories depend on Palestinian labor, and goods and services are exchanged. This successful assimilation can be a model for Isratine.

If the present interdependence and the historical fact of Jewish-Palestinian coexistence guide their leaders, and if they can see beyond the horizon of the recent violence and thirst for revenge toward a long-term solution, then these two peoples will come to realize, I hope sooner rather than later, that living under one roof is the only option for a lasting peace.

The One-state Solution
By: Muammar Qaddafi, January 21, 2009

166 Portal 2014 Jul 29, 1:33pm

Actually the violence is not shocking and it is not particularly bad when compared to the levels of violence and the number of killed in Iraq and Syria. The real problem is that this conflict is enflamed and dramaticized by failed muslim nations and anti-semites like bgamall4 who appear to have serious chemical imbalances.
Case and point-
Syria: Over 150k dead. With levels of violence much greater including chemical weapons and Hamas's Islamist brethren eating peoples hearts.
Iraq: Thousands dead with current ethnic cleansing of the christian population.
and just to put things in proportion, when we fight (U.S.A) we kill a whole lot more people than the Israelis. An example is the Battle of Mogadishu, for our 18 dead soldiers we killed over 1500 including civilians with many more wounded. How do you like that for proportional warfare? And I wish the numbers favored us even more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#Pakistan
turtledove says

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekendâ€™s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

167

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:21pm

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes.

I honestly can't tell if he's joking or batshit crazy. Since religion is involved, I'd bet on crazy.

168

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:26pm

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage

Yeah, true that and everything else you said in that post.

My judgement is that anyone who can't name at least three really bad things each side did is someone's who opinion should not count because the person is clearly irrational.

For example, I highly doubt bgamall4 could bring himself to admitting the Palestinians did three really bad things.

It reminds me of the whole Bush-Obama hate thing. Each side makes their guy out to be a god and the other out to be the devil. In the meantime, the policies of the two presidents are virtually identical.

169

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:33pm

I'm simply saying you're off your rocker for saying there's no such thing as Palestinian people.

Honey, I don't give two shits if you think I'm off the rocker. If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument. Accusing your opponent of being crazy and not backing it up with clear reasons and evidence makes you look like an extremist.

I've told you exactly what you need to do to make your case. You haven't even attempted to follow through. So, no, I'm not going to play your stupid games. You want to convince me and the rest of the world you're right, then write that damn transcript and break down the factoids like I showed you.

And while you're at it, name three horrible things that the Palestinians did. If you can't do that, then you are a delusional nutcase. And no, bitching and moaning that Israel does worse things doesn't count. You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side. Otherwise, you're just a nutcase.

170

turtledove 2014 Jul 29, 3:25pm

turtledove says

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 â€” violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never â€œun-welcomed.â€ Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

That is a lie. The NY Times is a Zionist rag.

That opinion piece was written by Qaddafi.

171 Winnnie 2014 Jul 29, 4:47pm

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth, otherwise you are shocking people by your ignorance if you care. You also then have to quit calling yourself an American because there was no America prior to 1776 - hey, just going by your dumb analysis of what defines or legitimizes an ethnicity or a country. Idiot!

172

Strategist 2014 Jul 30, 1:19am

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth

I'm sure a lot of what you say is true. The goal is for 2 nations, side by side, living in peace with each other. How will you ever achieve that when you have a terrorist organization, Hamas calling all the shots?
No peace is ever achievable without first snuffing out the extremists on both sides.

173

Dan8267 2014 Jul 30, 2:51am

Winnnie says

Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded

I already explained this, but people don't seem to list. The modern proposed state of Palestine isn't a continuation of a people, a tribe, or a nation-state any more than modern Israel is, or any more than the modern Olympics are a continuation of the ancient Greek Olympics.

Furthermore, even if it were, that would not justify a Palestinian state. After all, every American can trace his or her ancestry to Africa. Does that mean America has the right to annex its ancestral land in Africa?

Every person, except Africans can literally trace their ancestry to the Middle East as well as the Middle East was the first place humans migrated to when they left Africa. This is called the Southern Route Hypothesis and has been unequivocally confirmed with archeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence. So Russia could just as legitimately claim the land Israel and Jordon are on because its THEIR ancestral stomping grounds as well.

Furthermore, the next place our ancestors migrated to was India. So England could legitimately claim that recolonizing India is their birthright since its their ancestral land.

Are you willing to accept all those claims?

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim. If people wish to form their own government and nation-state, they should be allowed to do so, regardless of tribal land claims. So the very motivation to state that the Palestinians have a greater "birthright" claim to the land is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It's not a convincing argument to anyone who is objective, and you can't get more objective than an atheist who thinks both sides are acting like children.

But hey, if you think you are more objective than me, then list three atrocities committed by each side. If you can't do this for BOTH sides, including the one you like, then you are completely irrational. Please prove to me that you are rational.

174 corntrollio 2014 Jul 30, 4:30am

I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it.

And that's my only beef with Dan8267 -- he is taking an extreme Zionist position solely on this particular issue.

On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party.

Golda Meir isn't simple on the political spectrum. Yes, left-wing economically, right-wing with respect to Palestine.

If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument.

I'm not wasting my time with your BS -- you have no facts on your side and are basically descending into 49th Parallel-level stuff here with the "I know you are, but what am I?" non-sense.

You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side.

Again, it's not my side. I have no stake in this. No idea why you're obsessed with saying I'm on a particular side because you made two stupid statements that no reasonable person would make. I've objected to nothing else but those two moronic statements -- again, quoted above in all their lack of glory

I've already stated numerous times that both states are in the wrong -- I don't need to state it again because you are going around making stupid Zionist claims.

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel.

Agreed.

175 corntrollio 2014 Jul 30, 4:31am

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim.

Are you borderline retarded? Where is it based on an ancestral claim and who is making that argument? It's based on the fact that they lived there before they were forcefully evicted. Regardless of what ethnicity you believe Palestinians are and whether they have an identifiable culture or not, do you deny that they lived there before? Yes or no?

The Right of Return is solely based on having lived there before and being evicted by Israel.

The Israeli claim is based solely on birthright, as far as I can tell -- at least for people who aren't Palestinian Jews (i.e. the ones who lived there prior to partition), and it's particularly true for settlers. Where do you get this crap?

176

The Original Bankster 2014 Jul 30, 4:39am

GARY: SHUT UP

177 Portal 2014 Jul 30, 5:52am

Gary,
You have a serious chemical imbalance that makes you paranoid. Your chemical imbalance causes you to believe in "Zionists" which is really a not very well disguised way to talk about Jews. You are not the first and you will not be the last anti-semite but your paranoia will eventually destroy you and ruin your life.