patrick.net

corntrollio says

curious2 says

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage.

You generally seem like a reasonable person in other threads, but read Dan8267's quote above and tell me if I'm being unreasonable in characterizing exactly what he said.

corntrollio says

You seem to have an extremely right-wing view about the occupied territory, one that is considerably outside the mainstream.

Both of Dan's original quotes above are complete Zionist positions -- I'm not sure how anyone can disagree there. It's straight out of the Golda Meir playbook.

Thank you for saying that I generally seem like a reasonable person elsewhere, I do try. Honestly I think that when discussing this topic people tend to get upset with each other, because they are relying on different sources that say opposite things. I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it. On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party. If I've alienated both sides equally, then perhaps I may say that I don't feel equipped to solve the problems of that part of the world; they've been fighting longer than I can remember and I don't even know why it still makes the news, the sun rose and set and there was fighting in Israel/Palestine/whatever. My own view is that the 100,000 Americans who die each day merit each as much concern as each of the 1,000 Palestinians and maybe 20 Israelis who have died in the latest round of fighting. The commercial news bandwagon distracts the masses with the latest war in whatever country we're for or against, keeping the masses distracted, like something out of George Orwell's 1984. I'm much more interested in what the hospital corporations are doing to Americans, you or someone you care about could be next, while the corporate publicists distract you with far away fights.

bgamall4 says

Dan8267 says

How the fuck can a hardcore atheist be a hardcore extremist Zionist?

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes. David Ben-Gurion, the father of Israel, the George Washington of Israel, was an avowed atheist.

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"
So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

bgamall4 says

Strategist says

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"

So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

I rest my case. God gave Israel to the Jews in the Old Testament. That was then and this is now. God did not give Israel to the Zionists. They took it without permission.

So Israel belongs to the Jews?

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekend’s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

But everywhere one looks, among the speeches and the desperate diplomacy, there is no real way forward. A just and lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians is possible, but it lies in the history of the people of this conflicted land, and not in the tired rhetoric of partition and two-state solutions.

Although it’s hard to realize after the horrors we’ve just witnessed, the state of war between the Jews and Palestinians has not always existed. In fact, many of the divisions between Jews and Palestinians are recent ones. The very name “Palestine” was commonly used to describe the whole area, even by the Jews who lived there, until 1948, when the name “Israel” came into use.

Jews and Muslims are cousins descended from Abraham. Throughout the centuries both faced cruel persecution and often found refuge with one another. Arabs sheltered Jews and protected them after maltreatment at the hands of the Romans and their expulsion from Spain in the Middle Ages.

The history of Israel/Palestine is not remarkable by regional standards — a country inhabited by different peoples, with rule passing among many tribes, nations and ethnic groups; a country that has withstood many wars and waves of peoples from all directions. This is why it gets so complicated when members of either party claims the right to assert that it is their land.

The basis for the modern State of Israel is the persecution of the Jewish people, which is undeniable. The Jews have been held captive, massacred, disadvantaged in every possible fashion by the Egyptians, the Romans, the English, the Russians, the Babylonians, the Canaanites and, most recently, the Germans under Hitler. The Jewish people want and deserve their homeland.

But the Palestinians too have a history of persecution, and they view the coastal towns of Haifa, Acre, Jaffa and others as the land of their forefathers, passed from generation to generation, until only a short time ago.

Thus the Palestinians believe that what is now called Israel forms part of their nation, even were they to secure the West Bank and Gaza. And the Jews believe that the West Bank is Samaria and Judea, part of their homeland, even if a Palestinian state were established there. Now, as Gaza still smolders, calls for a two-state solution or partition persist. But neither will work.

A two-state solution will create an unacceptable security threat to Israel. An armed Arab state, presumably in the West Bank, would give Israel less than 10 miles of strategic depth at its narrowest point. Further, a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would do little to resolve the problem of refugees. Any situation that keeps the majority of Palestinians in refugee camps and does not offer a solution within the historical borders of Israel/Palestine is not a solution at all.

For the same reasons, the older idea of partition of the West Bank into Jewish and Arab areas, with buffer zones between them, won’t work. The Palestinian-held areas could not accommodate all of the refugees, and buffer zones symbolize exclusion and breed tension. Israelis and Palestinians have also become increasingly intertwined, economically and politically.

In absolute terms, the two movements must remain in perpetual war or a compromise must be reached. The compromise is one state for all, an “Isratine” that would allow the people in each party to feel that they live in all of the disputed land and they are not deprived of any one part of it.

A key prerequisite for peace is the right of return for Palestinian refugees to the homes their families left behind in 1948. It is an injustice that Jews who were not originally inhabitants of Palestine, nor were their ancestors, can move in from abroad while Palestinians who were displaced only a relatively short time ago should not be so permitted.

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 — violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never “un-welcomed.” Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

Assimilation is already a fact of life in Israel. There are more than one million Muslim Arabs in Israel; they possess Israeli nationality and take part in political life with the Jews, forming political parties. On the other side, there are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Israeli factories depend on Palestinian labor, and goods and services are exchanged. This successful assimilation can be a model for Isratine.

If the present interdependence and the historical fact of Jewish-Palestinian coexistence guide their leaders, and if they can see beyond the horizon of the recent violence and thirst for revenge toward a long-term solution, then these two peoples will come to realize, I hope sooner rather than later, that living under one roof is the only option for a lasting peace.

The One-state Solution
By: Muammar Qaddafi, January 21, 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22qaddafi.html?_r=0

Actually the violence is not shocking and it is not particularly bad when compared to the levels of violence and the number of killed in Iraq and Syria. The real problem is that this conflict is enflamed and dramaticized by failed muslim nations and anti-semites like bgamall4 who appear to have serious chemical imbalances.
Case and point-
Syria: Over 150k dead. With levels of violence much greater including chemical weapons and Hamas's Islamist brethren eating peoples hearts.
Iraq: Thousands dead with current ethnic cleansing of the christian population.
and just to put things in proportion, when we fight (U.S.A) we kill a whole lot more people than the Israelis. An example is the Battle of Mogadishu, for our 18 dead soldiers we killed over 1500 including civilians with many more wounded. How do you like that for proportional warfare? And I wish the numbers favored us even more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#Pakistan
turtledove says

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekend’s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

bgamall4 says

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes.

I honestly can't tell if he's joking or batshit crazy. Since religion is involved, I'd bet on crazy.

curious2 says

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage

Yeah, true that and everything else you said in that post.

My judgement is that anyone who can't name at least three really bad things each side did is someone's who opinion should not count because the person is clearly irrational.

For example, I highly doubt bgamall4 could bring himself to admitting the Palestinians did three really bad things.

It reminds me of the whole Bush-Obama hate thing. Each side makes their guy out to be a god and the other out to be the devil. In the meantime, the policies of the two presidents are virtually identical.

corntrollio says

I'm simply saying you're off your rocker for saying there's no such thing as Palestinian people.

Honey, I don't give two shits if you think I'm off the rocker. If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument. Accusing your opponent of being crazy and not backing it up with clear reasons and evidence makes you look like an extremist.

I've told you exactly what you need to do to make your case. You haven't even attempted to follow through. So, no, I'm not going to play your stupid games. You want to convince me and the rest of the world you're right, then write that damn transcript and break down the factoids like I showed you.

And while you're at it, name three horrible things that the Palestinians did. If you can't do that, then you are a delusional nutcase. And no, bitching and moaning that Israel does worse things doesn't count. You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side. Otherwise, you're just a nutcase.

bgamall4 says

turtledove says

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 — violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never “un-welcomed.” Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

That is a lie. The NY Times is a Zionist rag.

That opinion piece was written by Qaddafi.

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth, otherwise you are shocking people by your ignorance if you care. You also then have to quit calling yourself an American because there was no America prior to 1776 - hey, just going by your dumb analysis of what defines or legitimizes an ethnicity or a country. Idiot!

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth

I'm sure a lot of what you say is true. The goal is for 2 nations, side by side, living in peace with each other. How will you ever achieve that when you have a terrorist organization, Hamas calling all the shots?
No peace is ever achievable without first snuffing out the extremists on both sides.

Winnnie says

Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded

I already explained this, but people don't seem to list. The modern proposed state of Palestine isn't a continuation of a people, a tribe, or a nation-state any more than modern Israel is, or any more than the modern Olympics are a continuation of the ancient Greek Olympics.

Furthermore, even if it were, that would not justify a Palestinian state. After all, every American can trace his or her ancestry to Africa. Does that mean America has the right to annex its ancestral land in Africa?

Every person, except Africans can literally trace their ancestry to the Middle East as well as the Middle East was the first place humans migrated to when they left Africa. This is called the Southern Route Hypothesis and has been unequivocally confirmed with archeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence. So Russia could just as legitimately claim the land Israel and Jordon are on because its THEIR ancestral stomping grounds as well.

Furthermore, the next place our ancestors migrated to was India. So England could legitimately claim that recolonizing India is their birthright since its their ancestral land.

Are you willing to accept all those claims?

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim. If people wish to form their own government and nation-state, they should be allowed to do so, regardless of tribal land claims. So the very motivation to state that the Palestinians have a greater "birthright" claim to the land is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It's not a convincing argument to anyone who is objective, and you can't get more objective than an atheist who thinks both sides are acting like children.

But hey, if you think you are more objective than me, then list three atrocities committed by each side. If you can't do this for BOTH sides, including the one you like, then you are completely irrational. Please prove to me that you are rational.

curious2 says

I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it.

And that's my only beef with Dan8267 -- he is taking an extreme Zionist position solely on this particular issue.

curious2 says

On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party.

Golda Meir isn't simple on the political spectrum. Yes, left-wing economically, right-wing with respect to Palestine.

Dan8267 says

If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument.

I'm not wasting my time with your BS -- you have no facts on your side and are basically descending into 49th Parallel-level stuff here with the "I know you are, but what am I?" non-sense.

Dan8267 says

You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side.

Again, it's not my side. I have no stake in this. No idea why you're obsessed with saying I'm on a particular side because you made two stupid statements that no reasonable person would make. I've objected to nothing else but those two moronic statements -- again, quoted above in all their lack of glory

I've already stated numerous times that both states are in the wrong -- I don't need to state it again because you are going around making stupid Zionist claims.

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel.

Agreed.

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim.

Are you borderline retarded? Where is it based on an ancestral claim and who is making that argument? It's based on the fact that they lived there before they were forcefully evicted. Regardless of what ethnicity you believe Palestinians are and whether they have an identifiable culture or not, do you deny that they lived there before? Yes or no?

The Right of Return is solely based on having lived there before and being evicted by Israel.

The Israeli claim is based solely on birthright, as far as I can tell -- at least for people who aren't Palestinian Jews (i.e. the ones who lived there prior to partition), and it's particularly true for settlers. Where do you get this crap?

GARY: SHUT UP

Gary,
You have a serious chemical imbalance that makes you paranoid. Your chemical imbalance causes you to believe in "Zionists" which is really a not very well disguised way to talk about Jews. You are not the first and you will not be the last anti-semite but your paranoia will eventually destroy you and ruin your life.

bgamall4 says

The Original Bankster says

GARY: SHUT UP

Shut up yourself. You are a Zionist racist pig too.

Portal says

Gary,

You have a serious chemical imbalance that makes you paranoid. Your chemical imbalance causes you to believe in "Zionists" which is really a not very well disguised way to talk about Jews. You are not the first and you will not be the last anti-semite but your paranoia will eventually destroy you and ruin your life.

bgamall4 says

The Original Bankster says

GARY: SHUT UP

Shut up yourself. You are a Zionist racist pig too.

my guess is his life is already destroyed, he's just a lonely old loser who bought a cheap house in vegas, he has no friends, so he just sits and rants on the internet all day. Hating Jews is popular with this sort of person.

do you see ANY responsible media outlet reflecting this nutbag viewpoints on this military action? NOPE, none of them are that stupid. It's an effect of the internet, if you see some ideas that have no reference in reputable media outlets, best stay away- it's propaganda, and my spreading it you make yourself liable.

jazz music says

Your a shit-flinger, and I already have 5 of you assholes on ignore.

why not just put entire STATES on ignore? is it possible to block the entire internet that's not in California?

jazz music says

He has well thought out views

Oh God!

jazz music says

I already have 5 of you assholes on ignore.

Am I one of the assholes?

Gary, do you have a life? you should get one. retirement sucks, getting old sucks, try to do something useful with whatever little time you have left.