patrick.net

What's your opinion of corntrollio? A nut job?

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage. People who might seem quite reasonable if you met them in person, can seem totally different when all you see is their text on your screen. I check the daily news from various sources, though at times I wonder why even bother, and I've noticed that coverage of the fighting in and around Gaza varies dramatically depending on the source. American commercial news quotes only Israeli government officials, while the alternative press (e.g. Democracy Now) quotes only Palestinians and dissenters within Israel. One thing I've noticed: nobody reports any dissenters from within Gaza; I don't know if anybody there dares to criticize Hamas and Hezbollah. If you put five Israelis in a room, you get 10 opinions, but no matter how many Gazans get interviewed, they all seem to cheer Hamas and blame the Israelis for everything. I watched a BBC reporter interview refugees at a school, and during the interview Hamas fired a rocket from very nearby; the schoolchildren cheered, the adults cheered, nobody dared suggest that launching rockets from a school zone might be a bad idea. I saw another report, on France 24, of a rocket that had killed many children; evidence indicated it had been a Hamas rocket that misfired, but nobody on the street seemed to consider that possibility (Hamas rockets have divine guidance from Allah, apparently); everyone on the street was vowing revenge against Israel. At the U.N. in New York, there have been protests against Israeli policy and rallies in support of Israel, and each side had its share of Jewish New Yorkers; what seems missing from the debate is any sign of any Palestinian questioning the wisdom or efficacy of Hamas and Hezbollah strategy - or even acknowledging that, so far at least, it hasn't achieved its stated objectives. If a person gets all his news from a source that quotes only one side, his opinions may become rather lopsided, and it is an irony of the Internet that as more information has become available, many have chosen to indulge confirmation bias and read only what they want to read.

160 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 10:28am

Bitching and moaning about how evil the other side is and how your side does no wrong and everything's a Zionist conspiracy is not going to convince me or any other rational person that your political agenda is a good one.

Again, I'm not on a side and have no agenda (which I clearly stated above) -- I'm simply saying you're off your rocker for saying there's no such thing as Palestinian people. This seems to be really hard for you to understand because maybe there's too much nuance in it.

I was just called a Zionist extremist by one of the Palestinian nut jobs

Again, I never called you a Zionist extremist (your Texican Israeli idea is clearly not Zionist). I said that you hold an extremist Zionist position with respect to the existence of Palestine and Palestinians, i.e. when you said there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinian people. What I stated is completely uncontroversial, and even Israelis would agree that you're off your rocker on this one. It's a far subtler point than you're capable of understanding, apparently.

You still refuse to answer my questions, because you know you're being disingenuous:
1) There were people who lived in Palestine prior to the state of Israel existing. Those people got displaced, right? Yes or no?
2) Do these people who lived there want their homes back or adequate compensation for the loss of them? Yes or no?

You know, the answer is "yes" to both, which makes you dead wrong.

161 corntrollio 2014 Jul 29, 10:34am

Dan8267 says

Then the Palestinians -- who are just emigrants from various other Middle Eastern countries

Where are you getting this? Last I checked, Palestinians aren't wanted in other Arab countries, despite being refugees there. They are basically the Arab world's N-word in those countries.

Dan8267 says

The only reason the so-called Palestinians want it is because Jews are occupying it

Yes, because there's no such concept as "the right of return." In addition, genetic studies have shown that Muslim Palestinians are descendents of the Jews and Christians of the Levant, so there's definitely more to it than "Jews are occupying it." And on that note, let's not forget that there are many Christian Palestinians (typically orthodox), and that not all are Muslim.

The irony is that a huge percentage of Israeli Jews (not talking about the Russian and American Jews who moved there) and Muslim Palestinians are related quite a bit genetically.

You seem to have an extremely right-wing view about the occupied territory, one that is considerably outside the mainstream.

Both of Dan's original quotes above are complete Zionist positions -- I'm not sure how anyone can disagree there. It's straight out of the Golda Meir playbook. The other stuff he says quite obviously not Zionist (move the Israelis to Texas so they can become Mexicans instead of the Palestinians), and I've already pointed that out before.

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage.

You generally seem like a reasonable person in other threads, but read Dan8267's quote above and tell me if I'm being unreasonable in characterizing exactly what he said.

Listen to the last video I posted. Transcript the text as you listen to it.

As for your video task, get real, buddy. Did you see the book cover at the front:

A Century of Palestinian Rejectionism and Jew Hatred by Sol Stern

Basically, you found the most biased source you could find. If you thought this refutes your having a Zionist view with respect to Palestine and Palestinians, you're sadly mistaken. How much more disingenuous could you be? It's fucking unbelievable.

162

curious2 2014 Jul 29, 11:40am

corntrollio says

curious2 says

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage.

You generally seem like a reasonable person in other threads, but read Dan8267's quote above and tell me if I'm being unreasonable in characterizing exactly what he said.

corntrollio says

You seem to have an extremely right-wing view about the occupied territory, one that is considerably outside the mainstream.

Both of Dan's original quotes above are complete Zionist positions -- I'm not sure how anyone can disagree there. It's straight out of the Golda Meir playbook.

Thank you for saying that I generally seem like a reasonable person elsewhere, I do try. Honestly I think that when discussing this topic people tend to get upset with each other, because they are relying on different sources that say opposite things. I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it. On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party. If I've alienated both sides equally, then perhaps I may say that I don't feel equipped to solve the problems of that part of the world; they've been fighting longer than I can remember and I don't even know why it still makes the news, the sun rose and set and there was fighting in Israel/Palestine/whatever. My own view is that the 100,000 Americans who die each day merit each as much concern as each of the 1,000 Palestinians and maybe 20 Israelis who have died in the latest round of fighting. The commercial news bandwagon distracts the masses with the latest war in whatever country we're for or against, keeping the masses distracted, like something out of George Orwell's 1984. I'm much more interested in what the hospital corporations are doing to Americans, you or someone you care about could be next, while the corporate publicists distract you with far away fights.

163

Strategist 2014 Jul 29, 11:44am

Dan8267 says

How the fuck can a hardcore atheist be a hardcore extremist Zionist?

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes. David Ben-Gurion, the father of Israel, the George Washington of Israel, was an avowed atheist.

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"
So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

164

Strategist 2014 Jul 29, 12:11pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22qaddafi.html?_r=0

Strategist says

Don't they say "God gave Israel to the Jews?"

So how can an atheist ever be a zionist?

I rest my case. God gave Israel to the Jews in the Old Testament. That was then and this is now. God did not give Israel to the Zionists. They took it without permission.

So Israel belongs to the Jews?

165

turtledove 2014 Jul 29, 12:11pm

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekendâ€™s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

But everywhere one looks, among the speeches and the desperate diplomacy, there is no real way forward. A just and lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians is possible, but it lies in the history of the people of this conflicted land, and not in the tired rhetoric of partition and two-state solutions.

Although itâ€™s hard to realize after the horrors weâ€™ve just witnessed, the state of war between the Jews and Palestinians has not always existed. In fact, many of the divisions between Jews and Palestinians are recent ones. The very name â€œPalestineâ€ was commonly used to describe the whole area, even by the Jews who lived there, until 1948, when the name â€œIsraelâ€ came into use.

Jews and Muslims are cousins descended from Abraham. Throughout the centuries both faced cruel persecution and often found refuge with one another. Arabs sheltered Jews and protected them after maltreatment at the hands of the Romans and their expulsion from Spain in the Middle Ages.

The history of Israel/Palestine is not remarkable by regional standards â€” a country inhabited by different peoples, with rule passing among many tribes, nations and ethnic groups; a country that has withstood many wars and waves of peoples from all directions. This is why it gets so complicated when members of either party claims the right to assert that it is their land.

The basis for the modern State of Israel is the persecution of the Jewish people, which is undeniable. The Jews have been held captive, massacred, disadvantaged in every possible fashion by the Egyptians, the Romans, the English, the Russians, the Babylonians, the Canaanites and, most recently, the Germans under Hitler. The Jewish people want and deserve their homeland.

But the Palestinians too have a history of persecution, and they view the coastal towns of Haifa, Acre, Jaffa and others as the land of their forefathers, passed from generation to generation, until only a short time ago.

Thus the Palestinians believe that what is now called Israel forms part of their nation, even were they to secure the West Bank and Gaza. And the Jews believe that the West Bank is Samaria and Judea, part of their homeland, even if a Palestinian state were established there. Now, as Gaza still smolders, calls for a two-state solution or partition persist. But neither will work.

A two-state solution will create an unacceptable security threat to Israel. An armed Arab state, presumably in the West Bank, would give Israel less than 10 miles of strategic depth at its narrowest point. Further, a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would do little to resolve the problem of refugees. Any situation that keeps the majority of Palestinians in refugee camps and does not offer a solution within the historical borders of Israel/Palestine is not a solution at all.

For the same reasons, the older idea of partition of the West Bank into Jewish and Arab areas, with buffer zones between them, wonâ€™t work. The Palestinian-held areas could not accommodate all of the refugees, and buffer zones symbolize exclusion and breed tension. Israelis and Palestinians have also become increasingly intertwined, economically and politically.

In absolute terms, the two movements must remain in perpetual war or a compromise must be reached. The compromise is one state for all, an â€œIsratineâ€ that would allow the people in each party to feel that they live in all of the disputed land and they are not deprived of any one part of it.

A key prerequisite for peace is the right of return for Palestinian refugees to the homes their families left behind in 1948. It is an injustice that Jews who were not originally inhabitants of Palestine, nor were their ancestors, can move in from abroad while Palestinians who were displaced only a relatively short time ago should not be so permitted.

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 â€” violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never â€œun-welcomed.â€ Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

Assimilation is already a fact of life in Israel. There are more than one million Muslim Arabs in Israel; they possess Israeli nationality and take part in political life with the Jews, forming political parties. On the other side, there are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Israeli factories depend on Palestinian labor, and goods and services are exchanged. This successful assimilation can be a model for Isratine.

If the present interdependence and the historical fact of Jewish-Palestinian coexistence guide their leaders, and if they can see beyond the horizon of the recent violence and thirst for revenge toward a long-term solution, then these two peoples will come to realize, I hope sooner rather than later, that living under one roof is the only option for a lasting peace.

The One-state Solution
By: Muammar Qaddafi, January 21, 2009

166 Portal 2014 Jul 29, 1:33pm

Actually the violence is not shocking and it is not particularly bad when compared to the levels of violence and the number of killed in Iraq and Syria. The real problem is that this conflict is enflamed and dramaticized by failed muslim nations and anti-semites like bgamall4 who appear to have serious chemical imbalances.
Case and point-
Syria: Over 150k dead. With levels of violence much greater including chemical weapons and Hamas's Islamist brethren eating peoples hearts.
Iraq: Thousands dead with current ethnic cleansing of the christian population.
and just to put things in proportion, when we fight (U.S.A) we kill a whole lot more people than the Israelis. An example is the Battle of Mogadishu, for our 18 dead soldiers we killed over 1500 including civilians with many more wounded. How do you like that for proportional warfare? And I wish the numbers favored us even more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#Pakistan
turtledove says

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekendâ€™s cease-fire, reminds us why a final resolution to the so-called Middle East crisis is so important. It is vital not just to break this cycle of destruction and injustice, but also to deny the religious extremists in the region who feed on the conflict an excuse to advance their own causes.

167

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:21pm

You idiot. Israel was founded by atheists. Everyone but you knows that. You are so dumb sometimes.

I honestly can't tell if he's joking or batshit crazy. Since religion is involved, I'd bet on crazy.

168

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:26pm

This particular topic tends to bring out the worst in people, and Internet forums can suffer from something like road rage

Yeah, true that and everything else you said in that post.

My judgement is that anyone who can't name at least three really bad things each side did is someone's who opinion should not count because the person is clearly irrational.

For example, I highly doubt bgamall4 could bring himself to admitting the Palestinians did three really bad things.

It reminds me of the whole Bush-Obama hate thing. Each side makes their guy out to be a god and the other out to be the devil. In the meantime, the policies of the two presidents are virtually identical.

169

Dan8267 2014 Jul 29, 2:33pm

corntrollio says

I'm simply saying you're off your rocker for saying there's no such thing as Palestinian people.

Honey, I don't give two shits if you think I'm off the rocker. If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument. Accusing your opponent of being crazy and not backing it up with clear reasons and evidence makes you look like an extremist.

I've told you exactly what you need to do to make your case. You haven't even attempted to follow through. So, no, I'm not going to play your stupid games. You want to convince me and the rest of the world you're right, then write that damn transcript and break down the factoids like I showed you.

And while you're at it, name three horrible things that the Palestinians did. If you can't do that, then you are a delusional nutcase. And no, bitching and moaning that Israel does worse things doesn't count. You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side. Otherwise, you're just a nutcase.

170

turtledove 2014 Jul 29, 3:25pm

turtledove says

It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 â€” violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never â€œun-welcomed.â€ Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.

That is a lie. The NY Times is a Zionist rag.

That opinion piece was written by Qaddafi.

171 Winnnie 2014 Jul 29, 4:47pm

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth, otherwise you are shocking people by your ignorance if you care. You also then have to quit calling yourself an American because there was no America prior to 1776 - hey, just going by your dumb analysis of what defines or legitimizes an ethnicity or a country. Idiot!

172

Strategist 2014 Jul 30, 1:19am

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel. And I am talking about since the time of Christ. The current majority of Israelis are not even Semetic nor did they descend from the Israelites. Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded... Don't take anyone's word but do your own research, otherwise don't blurt idiotic statements. The Palestinians are one of the oldest ethnicities in the world. If you are too lazy to research, just simply go on eBay and look for historic Palestinian coins, maps of Palestine that are hundreds of years old and so forth

I'm sure a lot of what you say is true. The goal is for 2 nations, side by side, living in peace with each other. How will you ever achieve that when you have a terrorist organization, Hamas calling all the shots?
No peace is ever achievable without first snuffing out the extremists on both sides.

173

Dan8267 2014 Jul 30, 2:51am

Winnnie says

Research also what some Jewish historians who ran DNA tests on Palestinians and Israelis concluded

I already explained this, but people don't seem to list. The modern proposed state of Palestine isn't a continuation of a people, a tribe, or a nation-state any more than modern Israel is, or any more than the modern Olympics are a continuation of the ancient Greek Olympics.

Furthermore, even if it were, that would not justify a Palestinian state. After all, every American can trace his or her ancestry to Africa. Does that mean America has the right to annex its ancestral land in Africa?

Every person, except Africans can literally trace their ancestry to the Middle East as well as the Middle East was the first place humans migrated to when they left Africa. This is called the Southern Route Hypothesis and has been unequivocally confirmed with archeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence. So Russia could just as legitimately claim the land Israel and Jordon are on because its THEIR ancestral stomping grounds as well.

Furthermore, the next place our ancestors migrated to was India. So England could legitimately claim that recolonizing India is their birthright since its their ancestral land.

Are you willing to accept all those claims?

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim. If people wish to form their own government and nation-state, they should be allowed to do so, regardless of tribal land claims. So the very motivation to state that the Palestinians have a greater "birthright" claim to the land is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It's not a convincing argument to anyone who is objective, and you can't get more objective than an atheist who thinks both sides are acting like children.

But hey, if you think you are more objective than me, then list three atrocities committed by each side. If you can't do this for BOTH sides, including the one you like, then you are completely irrational. Please prove to me that you are rational.

174 corntrollio 2014 Jul 30, 4:30am

I do agree that Palestinians want the land for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, so it was inaccurate and hyperbole to say that the only reason was because Jews are occupying it.

And that's my only beef with Dan8267 -- he is taking an extreme Zionist position solely on this particular issue.

On the other hand, Golda Meir was generally considered left wing, not right wing; she taught schoolchildren in America and then moved to British colonial Palestine where she met with Palestinians and began advocating socialism, then she helped form the Israeli Labor party.

Golda Meir isn't simple on the political spectrum. Yes, left-wing economically, right-wing with respect to Palestine.

If you want to convince me that you are right, you need to present a rational, evidence-based argument.

I'm not wasting my time with your BS -- you have no facts on your side and are basically descending into 49th Parallel-level stuff here with the "I know you are, but what am I?" non-sense.

You have to prove to me that you can acknowledge the crimes committed by YOUR side.

Again, it's not my side. I have no stake in this. No idea why you're obsessed with saying I'm on a particular side because you made two stupid statements that no reasonable person would make. I've objected to nothing else but those two moronic statements -- again, quoted above in all their lack of glory

I've already stated numerous times that both states are in the wrong -- I don't need to state it again because you are going around making stupid Zionist claims.

Winnnie says

Dan8267, you are either trying to rewrite history or you are genuinely ignorant. Go to any library and research the history of Palestine and who lived there prior to the creation of the state of Israel.

Agreed.

175 corntrollio 2014 Jul 30, 4:31am

Furthermore, it is stupid to suggest that the right to form a Palestinian state is contingent upon some ancestral claim.

Are you borderline retarded? Where is it based on an ancestral claim and who is making that argument? It's based on the fact that they lived there before they were forcefully evicted. Regardless of what ethnicity you believe Palestinians are and whether they have an identifiable culture or not, do you deny that they lived there before? Yes or no?

The Right of Return is solely based on having lived there before and being evicted by Israel.

The Israeli claim is based solely on birthright, as far as I can tell -- at least for people who aren't Palestinian Jews (i.e. the ones who lived there prior to partition), and it's particularly true for settlers. Where do you get this crap?

176

The Original Bankster 2014 Jul 30, 4:39am

GARY: SHUT UP

177 Portal 2014 Jul 30, 5:52am

Gary,
You have a serious chemical imbalance that makes you paranoid. Your chemical imbalance causes you to believe in "Zionists" which is really a not very well disguised way to talk about Jews. You are not the first and you will not be the last anti-semite but your paranoia will eventually destroy you and ruin your life.