patrick.net

If you wanted good MPG, why did you buy a Camry?

zzyzzx says

If you wanted good MPG, why did you buy a Camry?

YOU try fitting a large child seat for a 3.5 year old in the back of a Metro or a Yaris.

We don't always get to choose purely for MPG. Fact is a mid-sized sedan is the family car we could agree on, and it's been exceedingly reliable. I compensate for it's moderate MPG by not driving it much and stretching it where I can. I bought this in 2003 and will run it out to 300K, it's a balance of money with minimum criteria and MPG. City driving is a lesser component for me than most since I live near work and most days bike there, so there's not as much pull for a hybrid and consequent "I don't know how to service that" complexity.

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Practical idea: America could up its gas mileage instantly by throwing away needless doors and trunk hoods and unused seats.

Really need more 2 door cars and less 4 door cars. Everything else being equal, the 2 door car would weight less.

Vicente says

YOU try fitting a large child seat for a 3.5 year old in the back of a Metro or a Yaris.

Won't it fit in the trunk?

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

AND anyone riding shotgun could stand while your driving and give them better visibility when shooting at on road and off road adversaries.

A careless missile launch could be.... bad... for your hapless sidekick.

Average distance traveled per year: 13,476 miles

From here: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

I’m at 55% of that figure now, projecting out to a full year puts me at 8,748 miles or 63%. So that's about 170 gallons of gas I have *not* burned by not driving everywhere.

Convince people to modify their lifestyle to reduce distance travelled per year by car by 30+% and voila you’ll have the instant effect of a rather difficult leap in MPG.

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

Toyota Yaris? Honda Fit? Still too big.

An image I come across the web, and this shit is actual car running on japanese roads.

American in Japan, I am sure you saw this car. Please tell me the name of this one.

seaside says

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

That would be about right for an average new car! My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I'm guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won't make such a car.

Checkout this 67 mpg (US) diesel with auto stop/start & regenerative braking that will be manufactured in Germany. It claims to be more fuel efficient than any compact currently on the road in Europe today. Did I mention it's made by Ford, and of course, won't be released in the US. Sigh...

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

There’s a lot of nice diesel automotive hardware in Europe. Drove a Fiat diesel for a week in Sicily last year and, wow, that car had pep. It was roomy, quiet and had incredible mileage for its size.
EBGuy says

But how did the wiper blades handle the blood of the infidels you mowed down with it? Did the cabin noise deadening technology dampen their screams enough for you to listen to your Mannheim Steamroller CD with a cheery smile on your face?

Vicente,

Thanks for photos and details of the "user experience". :)

I have since 1998 lived a less car-centric life than most. Not that I've given it up but I do drive less than average. I was curious what my gas-saving was over a longer timeframe. I plugged a few values into spreadsheet to look at some numbers over the last 8 years that I've owned this car. Well over 1,000 gallons.

start miles 136349
end miles 212707
total miles 76358
start date 4/3/2003
end date 4/9/2011
years covered 8
miles/year 9544.75
miles/month 795.3958333
miles/day 26.07855191

AVG american/year 13,476
better by -29.17%
gas saved per year 141.9330992
gas saved total 1135.464793
dollars saved total $3,406.39

Assumed $3/gallon, I have no idea what the real figure should be.

zzyzzx says

My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I’m guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won’t make such a car.

What milage you got with that? That escort was the one of the least impressive car I ever drove. Get rid of it. lol. Not sure about why they won't make such a car, but they certainly can make a POS car that gets broke right after the warranty expires.

I think most 1.6L engines today can perform way better than that 1.9L. For instance, I heard good things about new ford fiesta, which has 1.4L or 1.6L in it. New 1.6L engine in new hyundai elantra makes over 30 miles/gal in the city, over 40miles/gal in the highway.

See... 100 mpg sounds great whether we can see it on the road in near future or not. I want to see such a car w/ US automakers too.

The 2012 Yaris (nee Vitz) seems like it could be a contender:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-yaris-2012.html

"Stop/start" technology, just meaning it can kill the engine at a stop and quickly relight (under 1 second) as needed. I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

Anyhow some reports of 62 MPG all the way up to 75 MPG for the 1.0L version.

Something is happening, people driving less:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hEtu6TwFuyqm7VTvwBZSLNc_yq9g?docId=ada08116798a4505ad68a85eaa14a723

sfbubblebuyer says

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

There’s a lot of nice diesel automotive hardware in Europe. Drove a Fiat diesel for a week in Sicily last year and, wow, that car had pep. It was roomy, quiet and had incredible mileage for its size.
EBGuy says

But how did the wiper blades handle the blood of the infidels you mowed down with it? Did the cabin noise deadening technology dampen their screams enough for you to listen to your Mannheim Steamroller CD with a cheery smile on your face?

I pictured him doing it with Ride of the Valkyries blaring from the stereo system.

Vicente says

I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

I personally wouldn't trust a starter under those conditions.

zzyzzx says

Vicente says

I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?

I personally wouldn’t trust a starter under those conditions.

Some of these new cars with start/stop technology uses an INTEGRATED starter motor, meaning that the starter motor/alternator is (a) no longer belt driven and (b) no longer mounted separataley from the engine.

Think about it, the reason that hybrids like Toyota Prius and Honda Insight already can easily have start/stop is that they already have an integrated starter engine, namely the main electrical motor/generator.

Not having a drive belt improves reliability and efficiency significantly.

justme says

Think about it, the reason that hybrids like Toyota Prius and Honda Insight already can easily have start/stop is that they already have an integrated starter engine, namely the main electrical motor/generator.

But don't hybrids need to do this on/off business far less frequently than vehicles that use 'stop/start' at every traffic light? I don't own a hybrid, but my understanding is that the ICE runs for extended periods of time, then shuts down for extended periods of time. Frequently starting and stopping an ICE is harder on it than running it constantly which could lead to unexpected maintenance issues...

seaside says

Gio metro is what? 1.2L engine?

Most Metros came with the standard 1L 3cyl / 5speed manual.

After the Metro was stiffened and made heavier to meet newer crash test standards, a 1.3L 4cyl was offered.

An automatic was offered with the 4 cyl for those who wanted to make their Metros completely mundane.

terrietDeaner,

My experience with driving or being a passenger in a Prius is that it will shut down every time you stop.

Yes, start/stop can be harder on the engine if it never gets warm, but note how Prius has a thermos flask to keep some cooling water hot.

(duplicate deleted)

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seaside says

zzyzzx says
My 1995 Escort has a 1.9L engine, and I’m guessing that a 1.2L engine built today would have the same amount of power as my 1995 1.9L, and with much greater gas mileage. For some reason automakers won’t make such a car.
What milage you got with that? That escort was the one of the least impressive car I ever drove. Get rid of it. lol. Not sure about why they won’t make such a car, but they certainly can make a POS car that gets broke right after the warranty expires.
I think most 1.6L engines today can perform way better than that 1.9L. For instance, I heard good things about new ford fiesta, which has 1.4L or 1.6L in it. New 1.6L engine in new hyundai elantra makes over 30 miles/gal in the city, over 40miles/gal in the highway.

That's just it, my Escort get 32MPG on a bad day in Baltimore-DC traffic. Given how that's about the same as cars made today that are 2/3 it's size, I see no reason to "upgrade" to a newer car, just go get 1-2MPG better (if at all). And Escorts are very reliable cars. I've been driving them since January 1985 and am on my 2nd one and it has over 200K miles on it. I could care less how long it takes to get to 60MPH from a stop. I learned how to drive in a Chevette.

@seaside

It looks somewhat like a smart car... but it's different. I'll try to find out (not common even here)...

still looking..

zzyzzx says

That’s just it, my Escort get 32MPG on a bad day in Baltimore-DC traffic. Given how that’s about the same as cars made today that are 2/3 it’s size, I see no reason to “upgrade” to a newer car, just go get 1-2MPG better (if at all).

The Escort is like a typical European car was already 20 years ago: Not too big, not too heavy, and with a sensible 4-cyl engine. And "everybody" drives that type car. Good choice, zzyzzx.

In Europe, a very large fraction of the car fleet has been getting 30+mpg for the last 20 years, and not just inching slowly towards that number NOW.

In the last 10 years they have switched in droves to similar-sized cars with diesel engines, and they are getting 40-45-50 mpg.

The average US consumer is such an incredible waster of energy that it makes my head hurt just thinking about.

My car weighs 3400 lbs but it is a 4cyl 2.X liter and I get almost 30 mpg average, with plenty of city driving in the mix. For my next car the goal is to get 50 mpg.

justme says

My experience with driving or being a passenger in a Prius is that it will shut down every time you stop.

Yes, start/stop can be harder on the engine of it never gets warm, but note how Prius has a thermos flask to keep some cooling water hot.

Thanks for the info justme. Neat trick, that's for sure. How have all these extra energy-saving gizmos held up? That is, have you run into many unexpected repairs involving these parts?

I'm not a Prius owner myself, I just know several people who are. My impression is that the cars have been very reliable.

Poll: Has anyone ever seen a Prius by the roadside, with the hood up ? :-)

justme says

zzyzzx says

Vicente says
I have to wonder why nobody deployed before? Lack of confidence in starter motors under increased use?
I personally wouldn’t trust a starter under those conditions.

Some of these new cars with start/stop technology uses an INTEGRATED starter motor, meaning that the starter motor/alternator is (a) no longer belt driven and (b) no longer mounted separataley from the engine.
Think about it, the reason that hybrids like Toyota Prius and Honda Insight already can easily have start/stop is that they already have an integrated starter engine, namely the main electrical motor/generator.
Not having a drive belt improves reliability and efficiency significantly.

Starter motors never had a belt. Belts driving alternators don't make much difference in efficiency over direct drive.

Hybrids drive using the electric motor fed from the battery. The gas engine just charges the battery and/or generates electricity to run the electric motor if more power is needed. That makes hybrids start/stop by default. The gas engine stops whenever it is not needed, irrelevant of what the car is doing. Regenerative braking feeds electricity back into the battery for added efficiency. The Prius has 2 starter/generators. One connected to the wheels to drive the car and provide regenerative braking. One connected to the gas engine as a starter and to generate power. The real efficiency gains with hybrids are made by the regenerative braking and using a much smaller gas engine than would be needed for the same size car just using a gas engine.

Start/stop non hybrids are a conventional car driving off the gas engine. This idea has been around a long time, nobody deployed it before because the gains in efficiency didn't make up for the extra costs involved when gas was cheap. These cars must use a much heavier starter than a non stop/start car since the starter will be used every time the car stops, not just once per drive. The start/stop cars today usually use dual batteries with regenerative braking charging the battery. The advantage to this is that you don't have to burn gas to turn the alternator to recharge the battery after every start. Otherwise you would burn up a lot of the gas you saved sitting at a light with the engine off recharging the battery power you used to restart the car.

Bob2356,

Of course you are right, it is the alternator that has the belt. The starter has a gear but it gets tossed off the correspond gear on the driveshaft when the engine starts.

I guess what I was trying to say is that the starter/alternator in a hybrid is one and the same, and it is directly attached (integrated) with the driveshaft. Hence start/stop is easy, when in a natural combination with a good sized battery, as in a hybrid.

What a lot of this comes down to, is big car companies DO GET IT. They build the cars people are buying, not the cars people wistfully wish others would buy. They get to the lot, see a truck getting 11mpg and say that's the car I want! If there was a Prius next to it getting 100mpg they would ignore it. They want the truck, with the 0-60 as fast as possible, with the room and weight of a safe feeling vehicle and if it had better gas mileage they wouldn't complain but it's not going to hold them back. That is the majority of the buyers. Bitch and complain, but unwilling to give up any creature comforts.

The start stop feature is something new because of many issues. Old starters couldn't start a car fast enough. Today, my car catches after like a 1/4 turn, 15-20 years ago it would take like 5 seconds of cranking. With the hybrid, they can start moving the car instantly, and then fire up the engine in the background, without any noticeable lag time. Also cats/engines need to stay at a decent temperature, engines/cats are now insulated to keep temperatures up, so if the engine is turned off, once it's turned back on, emissions are ok.

Apparently this stop-start thing has been implemented already. Toyota has used it before and Mazda will be soon from what I read. I found reviews for Toyota iQ that mentioned it was a little disconcerting to have the engine coughing back to life:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/toyota/5895547/Toyota-iQ-1.33-StopStart-review.html

I would not want to fill up a Ford Expedition at $133 a pop. I hope the prestige of an SUV is worth it (only 16 mpg)...

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112561/gas-prices-%24100-fillup-moneywatch

I currently don't even own a car... What do you all think of this one:

http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/article/6-myths-about-gas-mileage/317188/

I didn't know that newer automatic transmission cars might get the same highway mileage as a manual transmission cars (or even slightly better).

pkennedy says

The start stop feature is something new because of many issues. Old starters couldn’t start a car fast enough. Today, my car catches after like a 1/4 turn, 15-20 years ago it would take like 5 seconds of cranking. With the hybrid, they can start moving the car instantly, and then fire up the engine in the background, without any noticeable lag time. Also cats/engines need to stay at a decent temperature, engines/cats are now insulated to keep temperatures up, so if the engine is turned off, once it’s turned back on, emissions are ok.

Starter cranking speeds haven't changed since the phase in of 12v systems in the 50's so the starter isn't relevant to how fast a car starts. Cars actually started faster with carbs, although it would be impossible to do start/stop with a carb since they are purely mechanical. A well tuned car with a carb will start instantly, you just have to tap the key. The computer in fuel injection systems delays firing off slightly until the fuel pressure comes up and everything checks out, which I have found totally annoying since my first SEFI in the late 80's. I am constantly reminded of this these days since I recently bought an old beater 87 Subaru wagon with a carb as a sacrificial beach rustbucket. It fires off much faster than either of my late 90's BMW's (wonderful to drive but not great surfing/windsurfing cars), both of which are in excellent tune. Now I'm always letting go of the key too soon with the beemers. If you had a car that cranked for 5 seconds there was something seriously wrong with it.

I've never seen a car with insulated engine (other than sound insulation) or cat. Why would it matter? If you are doing start/stop the time stopped at a traffic light is so brief it's irrelevant. If you are stopping for an hour or more no amount of insulation is going to matter. Cats run really hot without any insulation, I don't see how you could avoid melting one if it were insulated. Which cars have this feature?

Start/stop in conventional cars is not anything new. VW and Fiat both sold start/stop cars in the 80's. The extra fuel economy didn't make up for the extra price of the start/stop hardware and people found the engine quitting at a stoplight very odd at the time so they weren't very successful. Not to mention that these cars were designed during the very high gas prices of the early 80's and hit the market just as fuel prices dropped dramatically.

Start/stop doesn't exist in hybrids. The gas engine starts and stops to meet electrical demand irrelevant of what the car is doing. If you take off from a light and are using just the battery the gas engine won't start at all.

American in Japan says

I would not want to fill up a Ford Expedition at $133 a pop. I hope the prestige of an SUV is worth it (only 16 mpg)…
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112561/gas-prices-%24100-fillup-moneywatch
I currently don’t even own a car… What do you all think of this one:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/article/6-myths-about-gas-mileage/317188/
I didn’t know that newer automatic transmission cars might get the same highway mileage as a manual transmission cars (or even slightly better).

I'm overseas and I'm paying $133 to fill up my rusty 87 subaru wagon without any prestige at all. You don't even want to know about my 7 series BMW. Be thankful you are living in the land of relatively cheap gas.

Lock up torque converters and overdrive automatics have been around 30 years already, moneywatch is just catching on? On the highway an overdrive automatic with a lockup converter will never get better mileage than a manual with the same gear rations due to pumping losses, but it can get very, very close. A manual should get better mileage around town when the lockup feature of the converter isn't in use much, but it depends on the driver more than the tranny.

Bob,

I think you live in New Zealand, right? Gasoline here in Japan is around $5.80 or so a gallon. (I have to convert from litres).

Fifth Gear video review of Toyota iQ makes it compelling for me

"This could be Toyota's iPod"

http://youtu.be/z4HC6jtc5WY

American in Japan says

Bob,
I think you live in New Zealand, right? Gasoline here in Japan is around $5.80 or so a gallon. (I have to convert from litres).

Yep, it's $2.33 a liter times 3.785 per gallon times .79 exchange rate or about $7.00 us per gallon. No one commutes here and there are no sprawling suburbs.

Does anyone pay (or know someone who pays) over $400.00/ month for gasoline?