patrick.net

I also hit better with women's golf clubs.

skibum

Sorry about your recent investment “issues” of late. I do find it funny how there are many earnings reports that have beaten “the street,” while the numbers for corporate spending are decidedly down.

That's OK. I have far more money on the long side than on the short side. So overall I am very happy with the strong performance of stocks. It went up too much too fast, so I played for a bit of a pause. But it just kept going up. Betting against a trend is always risky. I knew what I was getting into. But I am still a victim ! I need a bailout ;-)

But the thing I learned here is, a crashing housing market does not mean the bull run is over. I think the exporters and multi-nationals like CAT or PG or PEP can actually do well. There are more forces at play here than just the housing industry. The debate is which force is stronger. We will see.

Robin Hood,

You're right about the medical travel abroad. A friend of the family just got back from getting his heart tinkered with in Bangkok. Now the ticker is doing well. And for about 1/3 what he would have paid to get it done in the states, even if it were approved in the states. (Still in Clin Trials)

I agree about the "outsourcing" of medical services. I was VERY surprised when a few months ago my coworker's relative went to India to get a major surgery done. That person was very happy with the treatment, and the follow up was done there as well.

Now it is possible to outsource almost everything. Some days I go home surprised to have not been outsourced, yet.

My favorite quote from homeowners who's trying to show off their houses' appreciation is:

"I can't afford my own house."

I just can't stand it when they say it...

“I can’t afford my own house.”

Translation: I would have been priced-out had I continued renting. Poor you.

Solution: Let's hope that credit standard stays loose so you can become one of us with a toxic loan.

Again, doctors margines are also thin due to insurance costs/staffing/equipment costs and building costs.

yeah, they only make $180K+ a year after costs, including malpractice insurance...

yeah, they only make $180K+ a year after costs, including malpractice insurance…

There needs to be a limit on punitive damages in malpractice lawsuits. The medical community should not be turned into a lottery of misfortune.

There needs to be a limit on punitive damages in malpractice lawsuits. The medical community should not be turned into a lottery of misfortune.

who knows. that's what the insurance is for. nice of you to be a spokesperson for the insurance companies tho, and they're not even paying you!

who knows. that’s what the insurance is for. nice of you to be a spokesperson for the insurance companies tho, and they’re not even paying you!

Insurance costs money. With lower punitive damage amounts the premium will go down. This translates to lower health care costs.

I remember that kind of talk back in the day CB when every Tom, Dick and Harry in Silicon Valley was a millionaire (on paper). "Gosh, I need a wealth manager now. And I'm only 24!" Then pfftt...

Of course, that could never happen in the housing market. “Research indicates that home prices will not go any lower. ” It says so right here:
http://tinyurl.com/39349g

Pay no attention to the cited research. And ignore the fact that it was written in December of '06.

Anyone else catch KRON's RE feature this morning? They interviewed an agent selling affordable efficiencies in the tenderloin for just under $400k. Wow. 300 sq. ft. AND a bevy of crack whores and vagrants right at your doorsteps. What a bargain.

Peter P,

Tone it down, just a little bit.

I also seriously challenge the story of going to Bangkok hospital for pampering, because an acquaintance of mine is a major investor in one of the outifts targeting tourists. He has not seen one single US patient, per our last conversation about 8 months ago.

The whole premise is targeting patients from HK, Taiwan and China because these places have public medicare is either completely swamped or lacking, and the private medical insurance is even too expensive for the "mass effluent". It also targets Canada and European countries with soci-alist medical system that puts you on a long waiting list. But if you are covered by medicare, or have a decent PPO insurance here in the US, there will be no monetary incentive to go to Thailand for the service.

I won't trust India or Thailand for anything other than very routine operation, but again for these routine stuff, I can get it all covered in the US so why should I pay entirely out of pocket in Asia?

CB, when owners we say we can't afford our own house it is not a put down. It affirms the bubblehead view that prices have become disjoined from the fundamentals.

CB, when owners say we can't afford our own house it is not a put down. It affirms the bubblehead view that prices have become disjoined from the fundamentals.

My sister went down to Mexico to get laser eye surgery about 10 years ago. It included a stay at the resort next door, where she was surrounded by many other Americans. I suppose laser surgery is routine enough to be 'safe' even in Mexico.

I agree. Let's cut through the poop. Like the poop about how America's medical/surgical procedures are the best and safest in the world?

Wow. I had no idea that I would ruffle so many feathers.

The hospital in India was "Apollo Hospital" in Chennai. I think is also a big chain with hospitals in many cities in India. The coworker and his relative are both US citizens. Anglo-saxon. White. I have no idea where the relative works. But the operation was considered "non-essential" by the medical insurance. I have no clue if the Dr was "American trained".

Trust it or leave it. I will not give more details. I cannot post such details about someone else in a public forum.

Well... let's see... the family friend I'm talking about is named Buck, lives in Green Valley, AZ with his two toy poodles. (Both Chocolate.) My dad flew with him to Bangkok because he wasn't medically allowed to travel alone. My dad stayed with Buck at the hotel pre and post hospital stay, and went over to the hospital with him for most of the treatment, stayed there about a month with him, and travelled back to AZ with him after he was released for travel.

Everything, including hotel and airfair, cost less that it would have to get it done in the U.S. assuming he had to out-of-pocket it, which he did. And apparently the procedure worked fairly well as his U.S. doctor (who told him where to go in Thailand to get it done) is happy with the results.

Now I am seriously surprised that people here are surprised to hear about Americans traveling abroad to undergo medical procedure due to cost savings.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/03/10/230503.php

A cursory search about "Medical Tourism" on Google yielded 26M results. There is an entry in Wikipedia as well. I know that just because it is on internet doesn't mean it is true, but common now.

So, please tell me. WHY ARE YOU GUYS DOUBTING IT ?

I wonder if health care could get so expensive here, that insurance companies end up only having Chinese doctors in their networks. Even with the airfare factored in, if you could ensure quality of service, I think we have the beginings of a business model. We outsource everything else to China why not healthcare as well?

Speaking of citations, I was surprised to learn a while back that Silent Spring had been proposed by Robert Cote for LAST year's spring selling season. I had forgotten about Silent Spring; maybe I should try it out on a Realtor(TM) at an open house. Then again, Alameda County saw a rising median... if this continues I may be forced to sell and hid out in a rent-controlled unit for the next decade. Try explaining that one to the wife...

We outsource everything else to China why not healthcare as well?

That is a distinct possibility. What but liability issues though?

So, please tell me. WHY ARE YOU GUYS DOUBTING IT ?

I trust you...

Or...

The Summer of All Fear

Actually Peter, if the price gets high enough your free market answer will always step in. If some chemo treatment here costs $100K and you don't have insurance, but you can go to China and get it for $10K desperation may overcome the typical litigious American way. As our healthcare system becomes more and more bloated you can count on entrepreneurial governments making policy to invite rich American patients. Think of the potential market of sick wealthy Americans, it is more attractive than tourism. With the Internet you can bet that you will one day be able to buy some sort of Swiss International health insurance.

So, please tell me. WHY ARE YOU GUYS DOUBTING IT ?

I'm not. Medical Tourism is new to the US, but it's not new to Europeans.

I've heard a few stories of UKers going to Thailand/etc for heavy dental work (surprise surprise). Boob jobs are apparently a fantastic deal there as well.

If this sounds far fetched one of the countries already doing this is Cuba.

If some chemo treatment here costs $100K and you don’t have insurance, but you can go to China and get it for $10K desperation may overcome the typical litigious American way.

Yes. But insurance companies will probably not send people over to China. They will simply deny coverage to high risk individuals, who will have no choice but to seek alternatives elsewhere.

wow that challenging the story line creates some hubrub
I challenge space age claiming on a previous thread that he buys and consumes 10 for $10 banquet meals and washes them down with tap water or crystal lite
also a challenge on astrid's claim of sustaining her life form for under a hundo a month
I challenge that cursory google "medical tourism" remark as when I googled it I recieved 14.6mil without the parenthesis but 640k with them no where near 24 million . What do you mean by cursory ? uberchallenge on that
I buy the whole story about the dad going along ok ?
I also like the Boregon comment
Finally I would like to go to tommy toys with peterp if the invite doesn't get challenged

Basically no country’s system is perfect. It’s choose your poison, so to speak…

Exactly. All because some girl ate the apple. :)

Skibum, 3-5 months is approaching Kaiser standards. Rather than shocking us, you are making Canada look attractive.

Skibum, 3-5 months is approaching Kaiser standards. Rather than shocking us, you are making Canada look attractive. '

I never claimed Kaiser was part of mainstream US healthcare!
Might as well be treated in Canada in that case.

Do you have any information or opinion on investing in their ADR?

No, but it seems like an interesting investment idea. Worth investigating. I don't really know much about it, except that it is a very well known brand in India, and probably respected. And also that they have made significant investments in purchasing the latest and greatest equipment.

The ADRs are not listed yet. Their latest financial statement says they earned a net profit of US$ 70M in 2006.

Given that they also treat patients from developed countries other than US, the US$ devaluation may not hurt them a lot.

If I find any more information I will post it here.

Finally I would like to go to tommy toys with peterp if the invite doesn’t get challenged

Other than the bisque, is the food any good? What should I expect?

New Topic Suggestion : Spring Thud (I mean bounce!)

skibum :

I would echo your thoughts based on personal experience. I have always had insurance, so I am aware of only better side of the story.

I have had my share of problem while getting an appointment for a flu or waiting in the ER for a whole night. But unfortunately there was a real emergency. And fortunately it was in the US. The doctor who helped at that time is now like God to me. The entire staff had been tremendous. This was in the Camino Medical Group.

I challenge that cursory google “medical tourism” remark as when I googled it I recieved 14.6mil without the parenthesis but 640k with them no where near 24 million . What do you mean by cursory ? uberchallenge on that

OK. You win. I accept that "error" in my statement. :-)

StuckinBA and SFBB

I apologize if I came off sounding very unconvinced of your story. The reason I asked is because I had a talk with my friend who invested in a "annual body check" facility in Bangkok and is thinking of how to attract more US patients. I basically told him to forget about it, because as I understand, almost everyone who has an insurance coverage in this country won't be interested due to the lack of monetary incentive. If you need the best medical care and advanced treatment, after you max out $5K - $10K per family per year, insurance picks up everything, so why bother? If you have trouble paying the medical insurance bill, how can you possibly have enough money to pay for medical bill anywhere else? Also, most doctors at these Thai facilities are NOT US-trained, instead, they are mostly trained in Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong or Malaysia, because it costs MUCH MUCH LESS to become a doctor in these places compared to the US. In the UK system, you can select a medical major in college and go through 6 years of training and go straight to residency, shaving off a good two years of medical school. Most of these doctors in Thailand have NEVER practiced in a developed country (the director of a certain practice may have), they graduate from medical school overseas and head straight back.

I agree with what skibum says about medicare in other countries and his explanation.

Incidentally, a long-term family friend of mine opened an "organ transfer" facility in southern China, she is an Australia-trained doctor practicing in Hong Kong for many years. I would say what she does may sound a bit morally off the wall, but that is a niche which definitely has a very valid market segment. Kidney transplant in this country is not about medical coverage or technique, it is about the supply of volunteer organs, and if you are over 50, you will be so far down the waiting list, and overseas "medical care" will be the only choice if you want to hang on to dear life.

I lived through the Hong Kong medical system, which is a replicate of the UK system. Medicare is practically free and the coverage is universal from age 0 to age infinity, but the quality is near to crap and getting worse every day, plus the wait is forever. However, if you want any attention to your health, good service, and don't want to die over a 3-year wait to get an operation or cancer treatment, Thailand or India is your best choice.

"What shall we call Spring 2007? “The Blair Witch Project”?"

The Economist made another nice suggestion: "JUNE is National Homeownership Month in America. National Foreclosure Month would be more apt."