patrick.net

Honest Abe,
While I agree with your list, I don't see what the value of the post is. You seem to be "looking for a fight". If you are here to honestly debate issues and be taken seriously I would suggest going about it in another manner.

The troll is responding to simcha's post. He had a lot of time on his hands and felt like sharing.

#2 and #3 I agree in a way, but we have not found a better way than "the fed" so far, and as for recent manipulation: it's all part of a reaction to the great recession we are in.

#5: Coercive collectivism such as making me wear a seat belt, or disallowing me from buying rocket launchers or machine guns for personal use, is annoying, but I will tolerate it as long as they don't take it too far.

#6: I agree, but since our prosperity of the last 30 years was so dependent on debt, it's not reasonable to expect us to go cold turkey.

#7: I don't know what this is about. You don't want your taxes to go to public education ? If education can be done well for everyone for a profit, how does that work ? If a child from a poor family has a huge academic potential ( is this supply or demand ?), by definition potential is something that is realized later (much later in this case - at least for the financial payoff). So where is the "profit" for the school who will teach this child ? His parents are poor.

Public education makes financial sense, because in helping a child to grow to be a productive tax paying citizen, there is ultimately a return on investment.

I don't see monetary policy as coming from liberal politicians. Greenspan was a fan of Ayn Rand who I think you would like Abe.

As for the comment about "spoiled child syndrome," aren't many of us spoiled Americans ?

(1) Supply and demand.

Sounds simple, a true understanding involves the underlying factors that make up supply and demand and the dynamics behind them. Who really truly understands it.

(2) Interest rates should not be left to the government or central banks to “manage”.

That sounds like an opinion and not a fact. There are pros and cons to each approach and you'll need to give me more to convince me one way

(3) Government intervention distorts any market, is inefficient, and counter-productive.

Government exist to balance the needs of the rich and the poor. What you feel is inefficient may also be a neccesity that only the government can provide. The key is balanced approach.

(4) Liberty means personal responsibility.
(5) Coercive collectivism negates freedom.
(7) No person should be born into a world with a legally enforceable obligation to take care of persons other than their own children.

I don't like to get into one liners to explain how complicated matter like this work. There's more to it than that. In your world, it seems that eveyone is left to fend for themselves. That sounds great if you are rich and have plenty.

(6) A spending and debt problem cannot be solved by more debt and more spending.

that depends on the short, medium and long term goals. No one plans to be perpetually underfunded even government. How do you balance short term decision to long term goal is more complicated than it appears. Because most politicians in addition to doing their jobs most try to keep their jobs first and rise in their careers, they most make decisions that are short-term.

Pretty much, what does this have to do with liberals and politicians? I am a not a liberal nor a politican yet have no idea what you are trying to say. (other than playing monopoply and I take all your money so eveyone else lost so my stretegy was the best)

Responsibility?

I notice that's a word people like to throw around to get the rest of society to conform to their ideology.

I can give a Rats Ass about how people handle their business, BUT! When it impedes the rest of society to do theirs, especially when laws are broken to allow it.

How about holding people accountable for their financial failures?

I can care less that, the idiot was an irresponsible Dolt to boot. But there's no way you change that. Lest your trying to the countries Daddy. And Brotha this current incarnation of Liberals and Conservatives, got no damn business talking about Responsibilities, and trying to be Papa.

Gaughtdamn I'm going to melt some Liberal faces come 2012 when they try lay on me, how I'm spending or wasting my Independent Vote.

And NOW this time around! There's LOTS and LOTS of precedence for point to, to DESTROY these smug pricks argument.

I'll be Responsible for my own decision who I back in 2012, and I'll gladly take "Responsibility" for my choice, 1 1/2 years latter if he sucks. But that's all ya gittin out of me.

@elliemae
Look at the time of the posts of Abe and Simchaland. It appears Simchaland was the one "responding." I'm not defending either.

jkingeek says

@elliemae
Look at the time of the posts of Abe and Simchaland. It appears Simchaland was the one “responding.” I’m not defending either.

You're correct, and I'm wrong. Both seem pretty dumb to me - it's all point of view, separatists, etc. Incendiary. And I really didn't read the specifics of either, because I don't believe that I can be that easily labeled.

I don't pretend to be a genius and think I have average (maybe sightly above average) intelligence. In my view these types of arguments come down to extremes.

I'm a registered Libertarian and I believe we should have more liberty and less government. Does this mean I think there should be no goods or services provided by the government? This would mean no government sponsored fire department, police department, military, everyone would have to build their own roads, etc. I do beieve in socialism when it comes to a few things (military, building and maintaining roads, police, fire, etc). I also don't think it's smart to allow anyone the freedom to own biological or nuclear weapons.

Does this make me a socialist? Some would say so. I don't believe there should be any form of freebies in the form of giving people money to encourage them to be lazy, free military support for foreign nations etc. I would like to our currency backed by precious metals.

A lot of people screaming for the government to shrink don't realize how serious the day of reckoning will be as our currency has no real backing. We don't produce anything, we are up to our nose in debt, currency isn't backed by precious metals. The currency would immediately collapse if the government and central banks got out of the way and we were forced to back our currency with our productive capacity and economic prudence.

Are these same freedom fights willing to allow this to happen and let nations with real productive capacities (China, Japan, Australia, etc) crush the US and force us to live as a 2nd world country? Or is it okay to allow our military industrial complex, central banks, and fiat currency global market manipulations keep us at least at 1st world status?

newhomebuyer7 says

Are these same freedom fights willing to allow this to happen and let nations with real productive capacities (China, Japan, Australia, etc) crush the US and force us to live as a 2nd world country? Or is it okay to allow our military industrial complex, central banks, and fiat currency global market manipulations keep us at least at 1st world status

You're far from the only one who believes this, but where did you hear it? The US has a huge productive capacity. To imply otherwise is just fear mongering.

And btw--Australia?? Where the heck did you come up with that?

Nomograph says

newhomebuyer7 says

our currency has no real backing. We don’t produce anything

The US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. China is number two. Why do people seem to insist that we don’t make anything?
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnllist.asp
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_country_has_the_largest_manufacturing_industry_in_the_world
Question: Now that you know that the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world, and that the dollar is backed by the goods and services we produce, do you still have the same outlook?

I must admit this statistic is an eye opener. I've been reading books by Peter Schiff and listening to guys like Gerald Celente. I've read and been told all through college up into the current day that the U.S. is a service economy. I'm going to have to pull some statistics but I think around 70% of our workers work in the service sector.

When I'm presented with new information that contradicts my current stance I am always open to re-considering my stance . I will first examine statistics from multiple sources to make sure there is no fluff. There are a few reasons I've held the stance.

1) Experts like Peter Schiff, stephen leeb, and Celente all predicted the housing burst when no one (and by no one I mean main stream media and my social circles) else saw it. They also hold the stance that our country is propped up by the services sector and not manufacturing. I'm open to reading other information hence the reason I'm reading these other stats.

2) I grew up in the midwest (now the rust belt) where steel foundries, auto production plants, have almost all disapeared. Most people who want a good paying job are moving to the coasts.

3) Almost every electronic device is manufactured in China or Japan

I'm going to research more statistics but am curious to know more than just the high level numbers. Here are a few of my concerns?

1) How much of that manufacturing is commerical real estate and real estate (which is collapsing in value).
2) Is this manufacturing by company or by geography. Apple might be based in the USA but none of the manufacturing is done here.
3) Is this manufacturing activity or just dollar amount . My concern would be that Lockheed Martin might produce an aircraft for $100 million. But if 80 million of the components in the aircraft were manufactured in China then only 20 million is truly produced in the USA

Because I don't know these details I'm not willing to jump ship on my stance but need more information. Thanks for the statistic!

Mark Twain said there are three kinds of lies "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics".

Manufacturing output as per the statisticians is defined as value added, or sales minus the cost of purchased inputs. The sticking point is purchased inputs. Purchased from where? This is poorly tracked and I don't think anyone really knows how much is manufactured overseas then assembled here. The number is big. Trade balance alone would indicate this. So the US may be number one in manufacturing or may not. The more important number is the ongoing decline is the US portion of manufacturing word wide, which has been very steadily falling.

Go to a store, any store, pick up something at random and flip it over, what does it say? 9 times out of 10 it's going to say something other than "made in the USA". More often than not it's going to say "made in China". Sure we make stuff here but all the crap that we consume, is made elsewhere.

newhomebuyer7 says

I’ve been reading books by Peter Schiff and listening to guys like Gerald Celente

Stop.

1) Experts like Peter Schiff, stephen leeb, and Celente all predicted the housing burst when no one (and by no one I mean main stream media and my social circles) else saw it.

That's nonsense. Plenty of people saw it. I saw it. Even the Economist magazine called it in 2005 and said the bust would be very ugly. It's just Schiffheads that say he was they only one that saw it.

Of course most people didn't. If they did it would not have been a bubble.

MarkInSF says

newhomebuyer7 says

I’ve been reading books by Peter Schiff and listening to guys like Gerald Celente

Stop.

:)

"The US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. China is number two. Why do people seem to insist that we don’t make anything?"

just because US is still #1 in manufacturing does not make it a manufacturing economy, when the US GDP is 14Trillion followed by Japan, China and Germany which are in the less than 5T range, we're just playing with numbers mindgames, US manufacturing is currently around 12% of GDP, a figure smaller than ever. From that perspective, the US is a service based economy.

The US doesn't manufacture much, but what they do manufacture have high impact like turbines and engines, heavy machinery, semi equipment. While most of what we see in the shelfs (Walmart to Pottery Barn and Beyond) are made in China, the equipment used to produce these goods in China are mostly in the US.

I know someone who's side job is to buy used farm equipment in San Joquin and Central Valley and sell and ship them to places like Vietnam, Thailand and Malaysia at profitable markup. Obviously, these are things that John Deere and Caterpiller have reins on.

elliemae says

jkingeek says

@elliemae
Look at the time of the posts of Abe and Simchaland. It appears Simchaland was the one “responding.” I’m not defending either.

You’re correct, and I’m wrong. Both seem pretty dumb to me - it’s all point of view, separatists, etc. Incendiary. And I really didn’t read the specifics of either, because I don’t believe that I can be that easily labeled.

Actually that was the entire point of my "response" to this troll. All you have to do is tweak the words a bit and you can get any platform you would like out of that list. The beauty for trolls like Abe-babe is that you can just regurgitate what you've learned on the teevee or am talk radio in sound bites without actually having to think or back up any of your "points" when you post this way.

I just get tired of a certain few around here who must be the most offensive, un-thought-provoking, simple-minded, irrational, and willfully ignorant yet loudest posters.

I can further tweak these "seven concepts" to make them say anything I want to express any point of view. The problem with these type of posts is that they are inflammatory, say nothing new, and don't bother to get into any details of why the poster believes that these "seven concepts" are true.

The burden of "proof" always lies with the poster. Posts like this show that trolls don't bother stimulating actual discussions. Instead they spend time posting flames and baiting people into responding when the op/troll has no intention of having a rational argument/discussion/disagreement that improves anyone's understanding of anything.

@simchaland
Why bother? Your post served no purpose either. Maybe sometimes the best response is no response... I'm just saying.

Nomograph says

China doesn’t have the skills to even begin to compete with us in these areas. Imitation is more embedded in Chinese culture than innovation.

That is exactly what was said about Japan in the 1950's. People who discount China will be very very sorry. Everyone forgets how extremely recently, like the late 1980's, China finally shook off Mao's totalitarian rural based version of communism. The amazing transformation from a very poor almost totally rural agrarian society to the second largest manufacturing country and third largest economy in the world has been accomplished in less than 30 years. Do you really think all those Chinese students around the world scooping up advanced degrees like mad are just intellectually curious? Plus China is adding 2.5 million university slots each year domestically.

jkingeek says

@simchaland
Why bother? Your post served no purpose either. Maybe sometimes the best response is no response… I’m just saying.

Just because the purpose was lost on you and others here doesn't mean that the post served no purpose. I'm just sayin'....

@simchaland
Let it go man, let it go.....

Nomograph says

bob2356 says

Do you really think all those Chinese students around the world scooping up advanced degrees like mad are just intellectually curious? Plus China is adding 2.5 million university slots each year domestically.

For the most part, the quality of Chinese Ph.D. scientists is very low. Innovation is not valued in Chinese culture, and is actually discouraged for the most part. Why take a risk of doing something new when you can have a sure thing by copying what’s out there?
The best Chinese Ph.D. students come to the US, and the best of the best get to stay here. The best of the best from China are on par with an average US Ph.D. scientist. Chinese-educated Ph.D.’s are typically equivalent to a third-tier masters here in the U.S. I have a research lab at a large, Ph.D. granting institution, and I’m speaking from many years of experience.

I never said otherwise. BUT, you fail to remember that Mao killed, imprisoned, or send to collective farms virtually any educated person until the 1970's. Chinese didn't even start getting higher degrees or pursuing science again until the late 1980's when they felt it was safe to do so again. So your self described low quality is a quantum leap over what existed less than 25 years ago when the scientific community was starting from pretty much ground zero. If you compare this to a scientific tradition going back centuries in the west it's pretty impressive. If you really think that won't continue then so be it, but I wouldn't bet too much against it.

Wow, many of the responses posted above reveal a lack of common sense, denial, and a failure to comprehend basic economic principals. Shall I try to explain the abstract concept known as "gravity"? No wonder our country is in dire financial, monetary and economic trouble.

Denial is willful and deliberate ignorance. And by the way, in case you conveniently forgot, the constitution is a limit on GOVERNMENT...NOT on the people.

Since many had so much difficulty with these seven concepts, I'm going to post seven additional concepts.

Abe (AKA "Roe vs. Wade survivor")

Honest Abe says

Abe (AKA “Roe vs. Wade survivor”)

Wait a minute. You mean to tell us that you're a survivor of a botched abortion? YIKES! It sucks to be you.

Honest Abe says

abstract concept known as “gravity”

In physics classes, many people who post on this site probably learned of gravity as a very concrete concept rather than an abstract one. We know exactly what it does, even more recent discoveries of how it effects light (Einstein). Not understanding on all levels the why and how of gravity, does not make it abstract.

That's okay, I too continue to get new insights in to what abstraction actually means.

Marcus - right you are. I should have stated "the concept of gravity" rather than "the abstract concept of gravity". I stand corrected. There is also an interesting relation between acceleration and gravity.

Nevertheless, libs, politicians and economists fail or refuse to acknowledge simple concepts such as those stated above.

Honest Abe says

Abe (AKA “Roe vs. Wade survivor”)

simchaland says

Wait a minute. You mean to tell us that you’re a survivor of a botched abortion? YIKES! It sucks to be you.

What kind of parent tells their child they attempted to abort them and failed? I have great sympathy for you now, abeabe. No wonder you feel so victimized by the system...

Bet there are no wire hangers in abeabe's house anywhere... just sayin'

What you seem to be concerned about is a world filled with pity, neediness, sorrow, misfortune, poverty, suspicion, mistrust, anger, exploitation, discrimination, victimization, alienation and injustice.

A world inhabited by the poor, weak, sick, wronged, cheated, oppressed, disenfranchised, exploited and victimized. However, they bear NO responsibility for their problems. Its other people who are responsible for their plight, right? And the world "owes" them - correct?

You focus too much on one small aspect of "liberalism" Abe. One that is sort of over since Clinton helped with Welfare reform ( yes republican congress). Liberals are not against personal responsibility. If you want to frame having a health care system, or investing in public education in that way you can, but a compelling argument can be made that both are very pragmatic ( yes and fiscally intelligent ).

You are obsessed man. Could I ask you, just out of curiosity, and if you are real that is, how old are you ? I ask because I have observed that most people sort of lock on to certain tastes, and biases at about the age of 30, if not sooner. Especially true for music, art and food likes. But I think that some also get locked in to an absurdly biased political perspective.

The usual bias is far more about "our team versus your team" than it is about real substantive ideological differences. Not that the interests involved don't have very different goals or agendas.

"too big to fail"

"too old to learn"

marcus says

“too big to fail”
“too old to learn”

Too conservative to reason...

I think #4, if applied correctly, takes care of the rest.

Ellie, Marcus and the rest of your gang: I think freedom is preferable to coercion. I think liberty is preferable to tyranny. I think free choice is preferable to "government management". And I also think its not OK to trample and destroy the rigths of some in order to "help" others. Accroding the what I read, that is "psychotic and delusional".

"Freedom is slavery" 1984

Abe and the rest of your gang: I think life is better than death. I think good is better than evil. I think dogs are better than cats. And I also think that it's not OK to continuously post strawman arguments on housing crash websites.

tatupu,
RE: your list: Agree (thats why I am anti-abortion), Agree 100% (we just need everyone to agree on what is what), Agree (cats suck), Agree (but, much like the difference between good and evil, the judgement of what is valid and what is straw requires alot of arguements - lol)

Tatupu, I don't subscribe to an authoritarian government that attempts to regulate, manipulate and "manage" every aspect of our lives. To rescue the people from their troubled lives, the government fosters denial of personal responsibility, encourages self pity, encourages government dependency, promotes sexual indulgence, rationalizes violence, excuses financial obligations, justifies theft, prescribes complaining and blaming, denigrates marriage and family, legalizes all abortion, declares inequality unjust and rebels against the duties of citizenship. Is this the "good" you were referring to?

The liberal politician is a "hero" in this ongoing soap opera. They take credit in providing their consitiutients with what ever they want, even though they personally haved not produced by their own effort any of the goods, services or status transferred, but has instead taken them from others by force...regardless of how detremental this is to society. In other words, the radical liberal attempts to create in the real world an idealized fiction which will mitigate all hardship, heal all wounds, eliminate all injustice, and result in a grand collectivist utopia.

Hahaha, and if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Honest Abe says

Tatupu, I don’t subscribe to an authoritarian government that attempts to regulate, manipulate and “manage” every aspect of our lives. To rescue the people from their troubled lives, the government fosters denial of personal responsibility, encourages self pity, encourages government dependency, promotes sexual indulgence, rationalizes violence, excuses financial obligations, justifies theft, prescribes complaining and blaming, denigrates marriage and family, legalizes all abortion, declares inequality unjust and rebels against the duties of citizenship. Is this the “good” you were referring to?
The liberal politician is a “hero” in this ongoing soap opera. They take credit in providing their consitiutients with what ever they want, even though they personally haved not produced by their own effort any of the goods, services or status transferred, but has instead taken them from others by force…regardless of how detremental this is to society. In other words, the radical liberal attempts to create in the real world an idealized fiction which will mitigate all hardship, heal all wounds, eliminate all injustice, and result in a grand collectivist utopia.
Hahaha, and if you believe that, you’ll believe anything.

And another strawman. At least you're consistent.

I think Honest Abe is really Patrick just trolling us.

Yes Tatupu, and apparently you concure with my assessment of the liberal political agenda - which is why I'm not a liberal.

Honest Abe says

Yes Tatupu, and apparently you concure with my assessment of the liberal political agenda - which is why I’m not a liberal.

How about you make a post where you don't describe what you think a liberal is? Just state what you think about the issue, not what you think a liberal would do or say...

oh yeah, conservatives got it goin' on...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts