patrick.net

China simply lacks such capability of doing that at least for couple decades.
The probability of seeing chinese occupied Hawaii in our life time would be smaller than the probability of Spanish being official language of US, I think.

However, if it does happen some day, I think that means US is so f'ed up and average middle class in US may not able to afford "made in china" coconuts by then.

Check out On the Beach. Interesting flick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv_OJBBaF48

So you just heard Glenn Beck talking about China taking over Hawaii and you had the inclination to post a thread about it. Seriously, turn off Fox News for a while. Theres nothing in Hawaii anyway... no natural resources. Why would China want it? I can realisitcally see Russia taking Alaska before China takes Hawaii.

marko says

A much more likely scenario is what if China invades Taiwan. Being that China already considers Taiwan as part of China and Taiwan has lots of manufacturing, this could be a part of economic growth for China. Hawaii has none of the economic possibilities of Taiwan. As far as Iraq/Afghanistan - it would not take long to expand the military plus we have so much more air superiority. More than enough. Our 50 year old B-52s loaded with cruise missiles is all we would need.

Afghanistan is of no value to them. Since the world is still a petroleum dominated economy, oil is of stratigic and economic importance, not sand or poppy fields. So long as they can continue to buy oil, nothing will happen, since it far cheaper to buy it than to wage war to obtain it. Once the world supplies of oil can no longer keep up with world demand, than perhaps China will make a move to secure it's future. Let's say they invade Iran, would we even care? Better to have a nice stable superpower in control than radical Islamic's with Nuclear Weapons. As for Iraq, sooner or later the United States will pull out of the country and it remains to be seen weather the government we set up there can hold up over the long run. If Islamic Radicals take control, again, would we be all that concerned if China invades?

But wouldn't China suffer the same problems that the United States is not facing with stabilizing the country? Not necessarily. Weather it's Iran or Iraq, what's important is the oil fields, not the rest of the country. If the Chinese just concerned themselves with securing the oil fields and to hell with all the towel heads in the rest of the country, than it's really not an issue.

As for your B-52's, America is doomed to lose any ground war with China, B-52's or not. 7.5 million Active Chinese Troops vs. 1.5 million for America, you do the math. It's only with the threat of nuclear war that war can be avoided. Sure America could ramp up there recruiting efforts and increase the size of it's Armies, but couldn't china just do the same, and they have a lot more people to draw from.

Zlxr says

China doesn’t have to attack anyone. Their mode of operation is to take over the businesses.
By the time we learn Chinese to do business with them and learn their customs as well - it will be us who are Chinese - no reason to attack.

As a senator back in 1989 put it.. "the shooting wars are over, the economic wars have begun".

I hope you're not losing any sleep over this.

If China were to take over anything it would be Taiwan, or some African nation the West doesn't care about with lots of natural resources. Both of which are highly unlikely. The Hawaii scenario is about as likely as the sky turning lavender tomorrow.

TechGromit says

Hawaii is pretty worthless, just tourist beaches and pineapples.

LOL! They must be running out of pineapples.. cant make sweet and sour pork anymore.

China doesn't have to take us over. Just let the clock keep ticking. They OWN US already, and more everyday they keep making stuff and we keep watching cable tv and eating doritos.

Nomograph says

stocksjustgoup says

What if China decides to take over Hawaii?

And what if Sparticus had a Piper Cub?

Well back in Sparticus days a Piper Cub would definately be an advantageous weapon. Imagine flying 1000 feet above your enemies and shooting arrows at them. And they had no way of shooting back effectively.

TechGromit says

marko says

A much more likely scenario is what if China invades Taiwan. Being that China already considers Taiwan as part of China and Taiwan has lots of manufacturing, this could be a part of economic growth for China. Hawaii has none of the economic possibilities of Taiwan. As far as Iraq/Afghanistan - it would not take long to expand the military plus we have so much more air superiority. More than enough. Our 50 year old B-52s loaded with cruise missiles is all we would need.

Afghanistan is of no value to them. Since the world is still a petroleum dominated economy, oil is of stratigic and economic importance, not sand or poppy fields. So long as they can continue to buy oil, nothing will happen, since it far cheaper to buy it than to wage war to obtain it. Once the world supplies of oil can no longer keep up with world demand, than perhaps China will make a move to secure it’s future. Let’s say they invade Iran, would we even care? Better to have a nice stable superpower in control than radical Islamic’s with Nuclear Weapons. As for Iraq, sooner or later the United States will pull out of the country and it remains to be seen weather the government we set up there can hold up over the long run. If Islamic Radicals take control, again, would we be all that concerned if China invades?
But wouldn’t China suffer the same problems that the United States is not facing with stabilizing the country? Not necessarily. Weather it’s Iran or Iraq, what’s important is the oil fields, not the rest of the country. If the Chinese just concerned themselves with securing the oil fields and to hell with all the towel heads in the rest of the country, than it’s really not an issue.
As for your B-52’s, America is doomed to lose any ground war with China, B-52’s or not. 7.5 million Active Chinese Troops vs. 1.5 million for America, you do the math. It’s only with the threat of nuclear war that war can be avoided. Sure America could ramp up there recruiting efforts and increase the size of it’s Armies, but couldn’t china just do the same, and they have a lot more people to draw from.

Ground war ? They wouldnt get past West Oakland. But I will do some math and say one B-52 could probably wipe out hundreds if not thousands of enemy troops . But you are right about the sheer numbers of troops that could be involved. However, this wont happen. If China decides to get aggressive they would start with Taiwan

How many troops there in china is not relevant here. Deploying certain number of troops in the certain place at certain timing is the key. First, China severly lacks in that department and maybe Taiwan is the maximum possible range. Second, when you take a look at the chinese military system, it is pretty much like the gathering of military cliques under the same flag, but doing their own business at the same time under the table... means, the number of troops they can deploy is pretty much limited too. Without alien mothership or something, things like China phisically invading Hawaii or confronting 1.5M US troops and 7.5M chinese troops is simply not gonna happen.

Now stop watch the movie, and get back to work. LOL

this could be the dumbest debate ever on Patrick, and troy the most ludicrous poster!
"china would roll over our airbases in Japan" Hardly, Japanese air power and local defense would give them absolute hell. The ability to operate that far from their own bases, and right over Japan is absolutely nil. In fact, it is highly questionable that China could even mount a successful invasion of Taiwan! If Japan intervened the highest probability is that at present, China has nowhere near the capacity to actually deploy sufficient combat troops to Taiwan to succeed. They would lose most in the 100 mile crossing. Now, their missile stock could blast the hell out ot Taiwan, but an invasion is a complete other story: you need to be able to assemble, transport, disembark and resupply a sufficient amount of troops to win, each phase of which without the other is useless. The Japanese wouldn't need to establish air superiority, merely detect and attack the transport ships, when and where the wanted, and that is well within their capacity.

you are talking about invading a country with deliverable nuclear weapons.

why Iran is busting its ass off to get nukes?

azrob00 says

If Japan intervened

Japan active personnel: 240,000.
Chinese active personnel 2.3 million

These numbers are only going to get worse. Note I'm not talking about action in 2010, more like 20X0.

China can take over Taiwan at any time now.

the reason why it is not happening is that China still needs to use Taiwan as an excuse to improve its military.

if you look at the ships and weapons China is developing, you will know this. majority of the weapons are too much for taking over Taiwan.

6000-10000 ton destroyers, anti satellite, EMP bombs, anti-ship ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers and Compass (Chinese GPS). when Chinese navy is ready to break the first island chain, Taiwan will be united.

there won be any war. when China decides to take over Taiwan, US government will force Taiwan to sit down and sign the paper.

dont expect full scale war between nuclear countries, it takes only a few hundreds of nukes to end human being. nuking Canada = nuking USA, as well as nuking China = nuking Russia because we are on the same earth

First and foremost the era of countries invade others with the idea of not only occupying but annexing is over (for the most part...certainly the west bank is an exception)

China and Taiwan actually have good relations or at least better than what they have had in the past. The communist aspect of the mainland isn't exactly communism. If you read the manifesto and go to china you'll see that it's not exactly following everything..people own their own transportation, there's no national health insurance, they want private businesses rather than governmental, the government is spinning off businesses. Deng xioping instituted reforms that allowed for people to profit and it worked. However it is still a one party state. For the most part you can do what you want as long as you don't want to be in power (outside of crimes). If you read William Easterly's The White Man's burden he economically lays out the ramifications from the late 70's going forward.

Taiwan and China speak the same language although Taiwan uses traditional characters. China has several regions as SAR's (special autonomous regions) tibet is one..hong kong is one. In a nutshell they get to do what they want as long as it isn't independence. With hong kong they won't change anything for 50 years. It has been predicted that Taiwan ultimately will become a SAR. The USA equivalent for a SAR I would say is a native American tribal area. They can sort of do what they want (gamble, no tax on cigs or alcohol etc)

China has way too much on its plate to mount any type of invasion. Nationalistic zeal doesn't exist..yes there was the olympics but there are some signs that the leadership is cracking. Sometimes local party officials think that they do what they want with people...there's been footage of an incident where one man tried to have his way with a women at a restaurant. Needless to say her father beat the guy.

Yes the military does have a few million. But that's a few million relative to a country of 1.3 billion! China cannot control it's own country..if you go there and see it's just the sheer numbers of people.

You also have to remember that no one realistically would trade with china if it goes to war. It fought a border war with vietnam but it was a draw...that was 31 years ago. It has arguments about the sprayly islands but come on now they are claimed by a half dozen countries and no one lives there!

The USA and China are tied economically at the hip. USA buys goods from China. China buys USA bonds. There is not enough consumption domestically for China to keep plants running on its own. Here's another bit. Most of china that is developed at least to what is close to western standards is on the east coast (beijing, shanghai etc) workers from all over western china go east (just as in the usa they went west for more opportunity). How would a war logically help? Then there'd be even more people coming as there'd be less less work!

Nomograph says

stocksjustgoup says

What if China decides to take over Hawaii?

And what if Sparticus had a Piper Cub?

An excellent point, Nomo. Not only does postulating this question display your unique ability to interject pertinent information into discussions that have no basis in reality, it allows me the opportunity to respond with an equal amount of seriousness. I believe that you were baiting me, so here's my answer:

Duh. He didn't have a pilot's license.
There was no aviation fuel available at that time.
His enemies would have thought he was an agent of the devil and when he landed he'd be killed (if he ever got up in the air in the first place).
Piper Cubs don't come with air conditioning. Spartacus wore a dress. He'd have gone "commando" and - ewwwwwwwwwwwww! He'd have slipped out of his seat from the sweat, not knowing what a seatbelt is for. He probably wouldn't have latched the door correctly, fallen out and died.
Had he been successful in his flying endeavors, everyone knows that a piper cub doesn't have the range he would need to fly through the time-space contiuum to land in the parking lot of Faux News to give an interview, relegating his actions to just a footnote in history about a crazy guy in a bird throwing stuff at the enemies.

You're welcome.

What if China decides to take over Hongkong and Macau...?

Nomograph says

stocksjustgoup says

What if China decides to take over Hawaii?

And what if Sparticus had a Piper Cub?

A classic Saturday Night live skt if I'm not mistaken? Kirk Douglas reprising his role as the historical slave leader yelling at the Roman legions while tossing whatever he could find in the cockpit

China has a navy???

What if Canada takes over New York? What if Mexico takes over Texas? What if Russia takes over Alaska? What if Cuba takes over Florida? What if England takes over Massachusetts? Do you see how silly of a thread this is?

> China has a navy???

Yes, At least one Aircraft Carrier that I'm aware of. At least 52 other ships, including a several Nuclear Subs. The Chinese Navy travels all around the eastern pacific. l really don't know the full extend of the Chinese military, up to date facts aren't easily obtained, but I'm sure the American Military is well aware of all the military assets China owns. After the Russian military pretty much fell apart, China is the most powerful opponent now. Sure Russian still has lots of ships, planes and Nuclear weapons, but they can only afford to maintain a fraction of what they have. Every year Russia has a few less operational Nuclear Missles. (although I do beleive the nuclear weapons stay dangerous for several hundred years, it's only the delivery system that lacking now)

WTF does this have to do w/ housing? Patrick, please delete this crap.

Moved to miscellaneous forum.

Just the old guard in China who have a gruge fight with Taiwan, as they die off, there will be no such talk.

China's biggest problem is North Korea which is creating instability with China's trading partners. If anything, many local nations would rather see China invade and occupy North Korea.

The idea that "number of troops" is meaningful in a nuclear war is absurd.

Total population size matters -- that's why Mao wanted China to have such a large population in the first place. It doesn't matter to "win", though. Mao believed that if a nuclear war broke out, having billions of people would guarantee that at least some would survive.

There are no winners in a Nuclear war. If the US and China ever go to war, we're all dead. Africa and South America might survive, but Europe will get drawn in, and when the nukes fly there won't be anyone left.

Are all of China's weapons "Made in China?" If they are, we have nothing to worry about.

"Total population size matters — that’s why Mao wanted China to have such a large population in the first place."

You do know that Mao slaughtered 70 million people, right?

thunderlips11 says

The reasons above are exactly why we DON’T need a standing army.

I have always believed that a standing Army is a good idea. For one thing, we'll save money on chairs.

Why would China Want Hawaii? It's got spit all over it now.

I think we should be more worried about the coming zombie invasions.

Is your home defensible? Do you have an escape route? How long can you hole up? These are the true things we need to consider.

kentm says

I think we should be more worried about the coming zombie invasions.
Is your home defensible? Do you have an escape route? How long can you hole up? These are the true things we need to consider.

Don't worry. I got it covered:

Ah good. And its excellent that you're practicing in a Hawaii-like environment, too.

But having said that, considering the video game apoco-prep technique, there is this problematic new Chinese video game out, that has American troops as the bad-guys:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/glorious-mission-chinese-video-game_n_863166.html

I don't think that the Chinese want to wok on the wild side because this might lead to a nuclear occident which could be quite a firy stir fry and I don't think they want trouble up the ying yang right now.
They're using their noodle and this is the mein point I'm trying to make. Besides, it's the wong thng to do and they know it. Why would they act like a Fu?
Soy what do you think? Yuan Tibet on it? Do you really think they would go that Lo? Especially since we can Saki to them, too.
Am I concerned? Yes, Siam, but the best advice Formosa us is this: Try to Keep your Chan held high.

My french is pretty rusty but even so I hope that's either sarcasm or she's talking about another thead.

I vote this the dumbest thread ever posted at patrick.net. Anyone bothering to think for more than .1 seconds about why or how china would invade HI would have to agree.

stocksjustgoup says

What if China decides to take over Hawaii?

You mean Anchorage, Alaska, right?

Don't worry, we'll just send a big ass nuke grenade tossing robot over there.

I'm glad this thread was revived, if only because it brought back some old posters I'd forgotten about.

The Little Guy Lobby says

China doesn't have to take us over. Just let the clock keep ticking. They OWN US already, and more everyday they keep making stuff and we keep watching cable tv and eating doritos.

This is more paranoid cable news head spinner horseshit. The Chinese economy is nothing but a shell.

If anyone's going to be in a position to be dangerous, it's us. Not only are the Europeans financially broke but they're likely to stay that way given the demographic mess that's coming.

In Japan, it's worse. The Japanese have money in the bank but no natural resources and that includes failure to replenish their population.

We have the brain power, will power, military might and natural resources to do damn near anything we want to do.

LandShark2847 says

dont expect full scale war between nuclear countries, it takes only a few hundreds of nukes to end human beings.

There have been 750 above ground nuclear tests since the invention of nuclear weapons. (United States alone detonated over a thousand, but some of them have been under ground) It would take far more than a few hundred to result in the extinction of the human race. One estimate puts the figure at 14,000, and most of the deaths wouldn't be from the nuclear strikes or radiation, but from the resulting debris in the atmosphere blocking out the sun causing world wide temperatures to drop. (nuclear winter). It's estimated that only 6,000 nuclear weapons are functional enough to be launched at a moments notice.