patrick.net

It isn't, at least not directly. The issue had been debated for years but offical teaching was formulated until Pope Pius IX in 1854.

I read the entire bible back in 2000, and looked for some mention of Jesus's immaculate conception. There is a passage where Mary and Jesus's brothers show up to take him home when he is preaching, because he was "not well" or some other euphemism. Jesus says to the crowd: "Who are my brothers? You are all my brothers."

The point being that the bible clearly implies that Mary was not a virgin.

As for Mary's own conception, I was taught in Catholic school that Mary was herself conceived without sin, and as the only person without sin was "assumed" directly into heaven without dying. The Feast of the Assumption is about that.

Another interesting bit I learned from reading the bible: much of what Jesus said referred back to the Old Testament directly or indirectly.

Moses said: "In dealing with your fellow Israelites, love your neighbor as yourself."

But when Jesus quoted Moses, he left off the condition and made it a universal: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I think this was deliberate, making Christianity a universal religion rather than a specific ethnic religion.

Patrick says

I think this was deliberate, making Christianity a universal religion rather than a specific ethnic religion.

I agree.

Romans 11:26 drives Pattern-Seekers crazy.

Jesus said "The first shall be last", it ties it all in. The first people in a convenant with G-d, will be the last to take part in the New Covenant.

Patrick says

Jesus says to the crowd: "Who are my brothers? You are all my brothers."

He also says explicitly that James is his Brother, and in context it sure seems that was meant as sharing the same mother, rather than in a spiritual way. Nowhere does it say Joseph was a married celibate, or that Mary was celibate after marying Joseph.

I know somebody who got their hands smacked in Catholic School over that.

The Bible is not what you think. Read Mauro Biglino's translation adventures of the original Hebrew and the spun off Greek variations in the book "The Naked Bible". The Bible has no angel, spirits or even mentions of God. His conclusion is that it describes sky aliens conducting breeding programs to synthesize various humans, some of whom are at a higher servant hierarchy than others.

AmericanKulak says

Da Fuq? Mary is immaculately conceived as well?

Nowhere in the books of the Bible considered cannon by the council of Laodicea. But once the church, or the Catholic church fragmented, Catholics added other books, same way Jews did after Christ, as they obviously didn't accept Him as the Messiah.

Patrick says

There is a passage where Mary and Jesus's brothers show up to take him home when he is preaching, because he was "not well" or some other euphemism. Jesus says to the crowd: "Who are my brothers? You are all my brothers."

Jesus was teaching, and His Mother and brothers came to see Him. When someone in the crowd told Him, Jesus said, "These are My family." referring to the crowd. This statement has nothing to do with blood ties. Jesus always spoke from a spiritual perspective, but since most people don't think in those terms, He was often mis-understood. He came to establish a heavenly kingdom, but the Jews expected the overthrow of Rome. The church became the new family unit that He created. There are many New Testament references to church members being brothers and sisters, despite having no blood relation.

Mary did have other children after Jesus with Joseph, but not Jesus.

Patrick says

I think this was deliberate, making Christianity a universal religion rather than a specific ethnic religion.

Christianity was never a Jewish religion. If you read the Old Testament carefully, God wanted to bless the world through one nation. Israel was special because they were His chosen messengers, His spokesmen for bringing the message of reconciliation to the world. There are many passages that indicate non-Jews worshiped the ":Jewish" God, and received blessing from Him.

After Jesus died, Peter had a vision where Jesus brought down all kinds of "unclean" animals and told Peter to eat. This was a message to take the gospel to the world. On the day of Pentecost people from around the world were gathered in the city where the Disciples received the Holy Spirit. Paul traversed much of the Mediterranean bringing the message of Christ to non-Jews.

the spun off Greek variations

The New Testament was written in Greek. Only the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. If that's the level of this guys knowledge, don't need to know any more...

NuttBoxer says

The New Testament was written in Greek. Only the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. If that's the level of this guys knowledge, don't need to know any more...

He said the Old Testament was re-written in Greek and plumped with Greek notions of spirituality, which the original Hebrew text never had, in order to create a more pleasing version for the population at the time around 300 BC. The original Hebrew of the Old Testament, which he said was a form of 'lower Phoenician', whatever that was, was written in consonants without vowels. Many of the liberties with the translations came from the improper attribution of vowels (purposeful?) in the original Hebrew, or in the gussied and 'improved' Greek version. I haven't gotten to the part in the book yet where he gets into the New Testament.

By the way, he was commissioned by the Church to do the translation. Needless to say, when he did his job, the Church ended his contract when the results weren't what they expected or wanted.

NuttBoxer says

AmericanKulak says

Da Fuq? Mary is immaculately conceived as well?

Nowhere in the books of the Bible considered cannon by the council of Laodicea. But once the church, or the Catholic church fragmented, Catholics added other books, same way Jews did after Christ, as they obviously didn't accept Him as the Messiah.

Boy is the Talmud Full of it on some shit. The not seething the goat in it's mother's milk goes to such an extreme of ludicrous caution that you can't have provolone on a chicken sandwich. Or that every Patriarch and Prophet and King in the OT is given his father's ancestry and maybe the mother's name at best, yet the Talmud is all "Trace religion by the mother" (I think that's a cope when Sarah got knocked up by some pagan Nebuchednezzar in Babylon).

The entire justification of the Oral Law is that little bit when Moses is telling the Levis to go and learn. Looks like a clear reference to memorize Deuteronomy/Leviticus and the Commandments, but is twisted into far more than that. The Druids memorized everything, Roman lawyers memorized much, most Priests and Monks were illiterate through most of history and memorized rules rather than consulting books (Buddhism, Catholicism, etc.) so ...

Though keeping in mind the Talmud is mostly theological debate about the meaning of some verses.

Several thoughts. You can believe this, or not, but this is what the Scriptures actually declare:

The scriptures most certainly declares Mary's virginity, which was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah (approximately 700 years prior to Christ's advent):

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

The account in the New Testament:

"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1: 26-35

Regarding the 'Immaculate Conception of Mary:'

There isn't even a hint that Mary was conceived without sin. Due to the breaking of God's covenant that He made with Adam (the Adamic Covenant), the sin nature
was passed along to every human being that was ever born via the reproductive seed of man. Catholicism cannot accept this, because that would mean that their
Mary (Co-Mediator, Queen of Heaven, Co-Redemptrix, etc.) would be a sinner, just as every human that has ever been born is. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" - Romans 3:23

In fact, the "Immaculate Conception' did not become Catholic dogma/doctrine until Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary an article of faith on
December 8, 1854.

Somehow I have trouble believing that Mary sharing bath water with the Holy Ghost resulted in Jesus. Call me a pagan skeptic.

Ceffer says

Somehow I have trouble believing that Mary sharing bath water with the Holy Ghost resulted in Jesus. Call me a pagan skeptic.

With God, all things, including miracles, are possible. In fact, for Him, they are easy.

Ceffer says

He said the Old Testament was re-written in Greek and plumped with Greek notions of spirituality, which the original Hebrew text never had, in order to create a more pleasing version for the population at the time around 300 BC. The original Hebrew of the Old Testament, which he said was a form of 'lower Phoenician', whatever that was, was written in consonants without vowels. Many of the liberties with the translations came from the improper attribution of vowels (purposeful?) in the original Hebrew, or in the gussied and 'improved' Greek version. I haven't gotten to the part in the book yet where he gets into the New Testament.

So my Mom went to seminary and studied the Old Testament, but in Hebrew, never in Greek. I also attended a Christian college, and took a little Greek. It was only ever for translating the New Testament.

If you're guy is correct, no one I know has ever used this Greek translation, in education or otherwise. I've attended a LOT of church during my lifetime, and if preachers ever referred to translation of the Old Testament, always from Hebrew.

Mary is human, so she sinned at some point. Otherwise she could have gone up on the cross, and Jesus would never have needed to be born.

Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived, after Jesus was born, she had other sons, specifically mentioned several places in the New Testament. There is literally a passage that says "James, the brother of Jesus". This is because there was another James who was Jesus disciple, so the author needed to specify he was not referring to the disciple, but the brother.

Joseph was going to divorce Mary when he found out she was pregnant, because he knew the baby wasn't his. The Holy Spirit spoke to him, and he didn't go through with it. This is clearly outlined in the gospels.

Yeah, the Mary myths abound. Islam built off of the Roman Catholic myths, which is why they both elevate Mary inordinately. And the RC myths are a perpetuation of polytheistic religions/myths Father-Mother-Son pattern: Osiris, Isis and Horus; Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz; Zeus, Diana, Dionysus; Jupiter, Venus and Cupid; etc.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/13148/Nimrod-Semiramis-Tammuz.htm

Mary also clearly stated the she was in need of salvation. Luke 1:46-49. Only sinners are in need of salvation, therefore Mary was born a sinner, unlike Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit rather than of human spermatozoa.

NuttBoxer says

If you're guy is correct, no one I know has ever used this Greek translation, in education or otherwise. I've attended a LOT of church during my lifetime, and if preachers ever referred to translation of the Old Testament, always from Hebrew.

I think the Greek translation refers to the Pentateuch (First 5 Books of the OT) and the Septuagint (7 Books, I think one or two are OT apocrypha?) translated a few centuries BC. It compares very well to the first 7 Hebrew Books as a translation.

Interestingly, when the NT quotes the OT, it does so more in line with the Greek Translations than Hebrew. Not a surprise since the Gospel Writers and Paul would have been more comfortable as Hellenized Jews with Greek than Hebrew or Aramaic.

More theology ...

Is Mary really the 'mother' of God? Briefly ...

Jesus is a member of the eternal Trinity (God as manifested in three persons; Father, Son & Holy Spirit, aka, Holy Ghost: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - 1 John 5:7) Therefore, Mary was the Mother of Jesus's HUMANITY. This can't be emphasized enough; Jesus pre-existed His advent. By falsely labeling Mary as the "Mother of God," and via the "Immaculate Conception" (of Mary), Catholicism has elevated Mary into a God-like status, precisely why they 'pray' to her, whereas Scripture declares "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ..." - 1 Timothy 2:5

There are several reasons as to why Jesus was born in human flesh via the Virgin Birth and the Holy Ghost. Briefly, God made a covenant with ADAM (known as the Adamic Covenant). Both Adam & Eve were born sinless, however, they both chose to sin against God (Original Sin). Being that God made the covenant with Adam, the sin nature, which all humans are BORN with, is passed to the human race through the reproductive seed of man. (The first reference in Scripture to the advent of Christ is made in Genesis 3: 15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.") Jesus obviously was not born in the conventional manner, thereby bypassing the sin nature, and, as the God/Man, He could not sin, because God is Holy.

Jesus was manifested in the flesh in human form in order to provide the perfect sacrifice for sin because He was, and remained, sinless. The benefits of that perfect sacrifice
are freely given to those that believe and trust in Him.

RayAmerica says

Ceffer says

Somehow I have trouble believing that Mary sharing bath water with the Holy Ghost resulted in Jesus. Call me a pagan skeptic.

With God, all things, including miracles, are possible. In fact, for Him, they are easy.

Yes! God is the architect and owns the “source code” of the universe. Of course He can tweak anything he so desires. But the earth was created to be man’s “sandbox,” and thus we have authority over it.

The exciting part is that we also have access to the “cheat codes” through an unshakable faith in God. I’ve seen it now. It works. The access to that power is what separates Christians from every other faith. Miracles happen every day, performed by the faithful. You just have to believe. It’s really that simple. When the confluence of your faith in God and your hope reaches your will, things start to happen that are completely outside of what we think of as “natural law.”
The Church has worked for centuries to bury this power, to subsume the inheritance of the faithful under a mountain of religion by rote.