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Electric Cars Are Starting To Make Sense


               
2021 Aug 25, 4:37am   1,605 views  89 comments

by ohomen171   follow (2)  

#electriccarchargingcosts I had a most informative phone conversation with a woman employee of Pacific Gas and Electric yesterday morning. I asked her to explain the current electricity billing plan that we have had since solar power was brought online. I got a most pleasant surprise.
From twelve midnight until 3:00 PM (15:00) we can charge electric cars, run the dishwasher, wash clothes, etc. We are charged 19 cents US per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed.
I focused on the recent charging of our Tesla Model X that consumed roughly 100-kilowatt hours of electricity. We were able to charge the battery all the way up and give the vehicle a range of 355 miles for a cost of $19.00 US. I pointed out to Elena that if we had a large piston engine, the cost to fill the tank with gasoline (petrol) would have been over $50.00. We are saving $31.00 with each full charge to the Tesla batteries.
Elena has a rare talent for asking brilliant questions and finding holes in arguments. She argued that this electric vehicle was much more expensive than a similar gas-powered vehicle. She asked how long it would take to make up the cost difference.
I accepted her argument at first. I thought about it long and hard. The Tesla Model X started life with a price tag of $160,000 in the US. By the time we bought this car last December, the price had dropped to $75,000 US stripped. The model we bought came in at $100,000 US.
I am quite familiar with the high-end SUVs sold by Cadillac. They are the same size, passenger capacity, and cargo hauling capacity as the Model X. Their prices range from $87,000 US to $100,000 US. There is a piston engine car that is the analog of the Model X. It is far more expensive than the Model X to operate. Electric cars make sense. Please watch the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill. I am hearing serious talk of a $12,000 US tax credit when one buys a new electric vehicle.

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1   clambo   @   2021 Aug 25, 5:21am  

Why should taxpayers subsidize the decision to buy a battery powered car?
2   GreaterNYCDude   @   2021 Aug 25, 5:56am  

How often do you need to replace the battery? Are there any other maintained costs for an electric vehicle that you would not have for a gasoline powered one (or vice versa) to get a true comparison, look at the total cost of ownership. Purchase price, tax credits, depreciation, fuel (or electric costs), maintance costs, etc.
3   Tenpoundbass   @   2021 Aug 25, 8:22am  

Three years after the big Tesla boom here in South Florida now we hardly ever see one on the road, unless it's a brand spanking new one, and new Sucker driving it.
They end up in the driveway, and the owners take their other luxury car more than the Tesla.
Funny also how most all Tesla owners, all have a Luxury car besides their Tesla.

90% of all Tesla owners, bought it to keep up appearances, it's nothing more than a status symbol, and they all did mental masturbation gymnastics with the tax break and other subsidies to rationalized buying it.

I don't know one single Tesla owner, that has it as their only car.

I would drive my Kitchen Aide stand mixer if could. At least they come in hot colors.
4   Shaman   @   2021 Aug 25, 8:53am  

By my calculations…
…it’s time for Elena to get her third jab.
Don’t wanna be one of those dirty unvaxxed people! I know you said she had a really rough time with the second one, but feelings don’t matter. Only the jab matters! Please let us know if she survives this one or if your meal ticket evaporates.
5   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:03am  

I think right now hybrids are the best bang for the buck. Electric car are like expensive toys, good way to get stranded on long trips, more of a status symbol.
6   Zak   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:05am  

I dunno about you guys, but i am 100% in on electric for my next vehicle. I'll keep my gas vehicle for long trips, but I will only use electric around town. I have a 2015 tacoma, and it is getting about 12-14 miles to the gallon when I drive it around. Its $75 to fill up, and 95% of me driving it is back and forth to work or home depot, or the beach. All that is within 25 miles. Plus, no oil changes, transmission worries, smog checks... there are supposedly 400 fewer parts overall.
7   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:06am  

GreaterNYCDude says
How often do you need to replace the battery?


Depends. Teslas go well over 300K miles. Crap like Nissan Leaf or VW e-Golf are toast well below 100K. The difference is mainly in cooling: Tesla batteries are liquid-cooled whereas Nissan and VW are not.
8   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:21am  

Why the fuck some geezer and his wife need a fucking 3-row minivan? This is what Model X essentially is - fucking minivan down to the kiddie doors (so the little buggers don't ding the shit out of other cars on the parking lot).

Jeebus! Live a little, buy a fucking 911 or a Jaaag. "But I'm saving $20 per fill in my $100K egg-shaped transportation pod".... Fucking shit, dude, people THAT concerned with saving money do not piss them away on $100K (+$10K in sales tax) appliances.
9   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:25am  

FuckCCP89 says
eslas go well over 300K miles


How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.
10   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:28am  

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.
11   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:30am  

FuckCCP89 says
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.


thanks!
12   WookieMan   @   2021 Aug 25, 9:43am  

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
FuckCCP89 says
eslas go well over 300K miles


How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.

Probably not going to happen anytime soon to hit 300k. To drive that much you'd have to charge constantly. My wife puts on 40k miles a year on her car. Can't do that with a Tesla without losing money and time.

Until you can get a full charge in 5 min and 400 mile range, we're not touching full electric. We like our big cars that guzzle gas. We write it off after all and don't pay for any gas out of pocket ever. Most IC's and employees that travel do this as well. So ICE isn't going away ever probably unless they reform tax laws or destroy the entire oil industry.

Also, it's only about $28-32 to fill up my old Versa. That car cost $9k with 3k miles on it. Teslas still don't and won't make sense to buy until the price drops, range improves and charging times to 100% are substantially lower. Basic math.
13   WookieMan   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:02am  

FuckCCP89 says
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.

Missed this typing my comment. Likely subsidized by Tesla or they're getting a cut from the service. Or could be an extended warranty on battery. We'd never know. I do know car corps like Toyota will give dealers and partners free cars as a cost of doing business.

Everyone needs to remember that Tesla has priced in subsidies. That's what you do. They build the cars for way less than they claim.
14   rocketjoe79   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:03am  

Congress was lobbied by the Big 3 to gut the infrastructure bill to exclude Tesla. This will reduce the adoption of electric cars. Big 3 can't compete (Chevy Bolt recall will cost Billions to replace their shitty, fire-prone batteries.) Tesla was EXCLUDED from the Biden administration EV car day. When Psaki was asked why, she said: "We brought the largest UNION car makers in the USA together to promote EV's. Draw your own conclusions about why TESLA wasn't invited." Never mind that TESLA is completely USA-made, while most other "USA MADE" cars are produced in Canada and Mexico.

There are a ton of myths about electric cars that are plain wrong: Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhMIawaCImo for Real Data
15   Hircus   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:06am  

I recall when the prius and other hybrids first came out, many people bought them because they got better mileage, even though the upfront cost was higher. I was often critical of their decision because for many of these people, I didn't think the extra upfront cost would pay itself off in gas mileage. Often the more efficient car would cost $5-10k extra than a similar non-hybrid, and 5-10k buys a LOT of gasoline. If car A gets 30mpg, and car B gets 45mpg, it will take a long time before car B accumulates 5-10k in fuel savings. At 12,000 miles per year, car B saves about 135 gallons per year, which is $337 savings per yr at $2.5 per gallon gas (early to mid 2000s CA). That's a 15-30 year payoff on fuel alone, which is very poor.

I agree w/ GreaterNYCDude - you need to do a cost of ownership analysis, and calculate cost of owning and eventually selling the car to account for depreciation. I don't think comparing a Tesla model X to a Cadillac is a good comparison to extol the value of electric - this is an apples to oranges comparison, and its comparing expensive 2 luxury cars, which cloaks the gas vs electric economics. Its easier to compare econoboxes than compare nice cars, because nice cars have lots of additional utility in their looks and luxuries.

Anyway, I do think electric makes sense for certain people, and that number is growing quickly. But not always. For example, Edmunds says a 2021 gas corolla has a lower 5 yr cost of ownership than a 2021 leaf - by a whopping $8k. Plus, I'd much rather drive a corolla than a leaf. Maybe if you drive a ton of miles, and have low or no cost electric charging, the leaf might eek out ahead.
16   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:11am  

HunterTits says
And are those cars using the same, original batteries? Where's the data on that?


Some of them, yes. Other did have their batteries replaced. Data? Self-reporting.
17   WookieMan   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:23am  

If you make good money, the fact is EV's are a waste of time. I can fuel up a Sequoia in 3 minutes and be back on the road. Similar price to certain models of Tesla. I can fit 6 people and tow an 8k payload for 300 miles or so. I get there are different profiles of people for EV's, but they make zero sense in my world. There's not even a discussion with my wife or I about it.

Won't touch EV's until kids are out of the house and that's still not likely. They really don't make sense unless you just drive 20 miles or less to work, and work all the time that you cannot travel.

Regionally I'm also interested to see how they work out long term. Salt in winter climates. Cold. Hot. Etc. The idea of EV's isn't bad, but I think it will still be some time. I am getting a electric golf cart for around town, so I'll get some working knowledge of batteries for vehicles.
18   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:24am  

HunterTits says
FuckCCP89 says
Self-reporting.


Where? Show me the data.


Google Tesloop.

PS. IIRC batteries they had replaced failed relatively early in the car's life.
19   Hircus   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:34am  

Another thing I think about is how right now, they talk about how fragile our grid is, and susceptible to attack. Imagine how much sweeter of a target it will be if 75% of vehicles were electric, with most families only owning electric cars?

It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.
20   rocketjoe79   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:40am  

Hircus says
Another thing I think about is how right now, they talk about how fragile our grid is, and susceptible to attack. Imagine how much sweeter of a target it will be if 75% of vehicles were electric, with most families only owning electric cars?

It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.


If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.
21   WookieMan   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:53am  

rocketjoe79 says
If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.

Nat gas is better as a backup. Solar is hideous as someone that likes architecture. Hail storms here in the midwest will destroy your array and any insurance would negate the benefits of it. So I can't do solar. Batteries also fail over time, so they're not worth buying.

Just told some sales guys doing door to door to fuck off basically over the weekend. He said I could save $300/mo and I said I piss that hourly. I felt bad after the fact, but it was some 25 year old selling, probably his first job. We live modestly for our income house wise and he thought I would be a sucker probably looking at our home. Have to give him credit as he's the first salesman to breach our gate and pound on my door. Haven't had that happen in 8 years from our previous house.
22   Eric_Holder   @   2021 Aug 25, 10:56am  

WookieMan says
Just told some sales guys doing door to door to fuck off basically over the weekend. He said I could save $300/mo and I said I piss that hourly. I felt bad after the fact, but it was some 25 year old selling, probably his first job


Don't feel bad for him: some older dude on another forum said his 20-something son is making $20K per month pushing solar door-to-door and "intends to ride that shit until suckers stop coming".
23   RWSGFY   @   2021 Aug 25, 11:11am  

WookieMan says
If you make good money, the fact is EV's are a waste of time. I can fuel up a Sequoia in 3 minutes and be back on the road.


My BIL used to brag how he covers the distance from his house to ours in 6 hours (not really, more like 6.5). Now he does it in 8-9 and brags how he is drinking beer and watching Netflix while his Tesla is charging. =))

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