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I was just reading about how Christianity actually merged with "paganism" (a derogatory term) to some degree.

The Christians simply rebranded a lot of pagan deities as Christian saints, and Mary merged with Artemis/Diana.

And these pagan deities were similar to Hindu gods. The ancient European religions were related to Hinduism.

Patrick says

I was just reading about how Christianity actually merged with "paganism" (a derogatory term) to some degree.

The Christians simply rebranded a lot of pagan deities as Christian saints,, and Mary merged with Artemis/Diana.

And these pagan deities were similar to Hindu gods. The ancient European religions were related to Hinduism.

Would like to know where you read it.

Which part, the merger of Christianity and paganism in the Roman Empire, or the similarity of ancient European religion to Hinduism?

I can look up page numbers in the book I'm reading for the first one, but here's some easy evidence for the second:

https://sowmyanath.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/hindu-greekroman-pantheons/

https://www.quora.com/How-similar-were-ancient-European-pagan-religions-to-early-Hinduism-given-that-they-both-had-a-linguistic-and-cultural-heritage-going-back-to-the-original-Proto-Indo-European-speakers

https://colors-newyork.com/what-are-the-similarities-between-hinduism-and-christianity/

I don't think the ancient Europeans had a caste system like India's though.

https://www.quora.com/What-do-ancient-Indians-used-to-worship-before-Hinduism
Profile photo for Aryan Abinash Saikia
Aryan Abinash Saikia
, M.Tech Petroleum Exploration, University of Petroleum and Energy Studies (2018)
Answered 2 years ago

No one can give this answer clearly. If we talk about the Indus Valley Civilization which was during the period 2800 B.C - 1900 B.C, they worshiped natural elements such as the sun, moon etc. I am including the people of Indus Valley Civilization because the Iranian and the Greeks called these people as Hindos (Hindus) or Indos. This civilization became totally dormant after 1900 B.C. and it was not untill 1500 B.C. that the evidence of next civilization was found. This new civilization is known as Rig-Vedic era. This era extends from 1500 B.C - 1100 B.C. During this era, only one Ved was written i.e. Rig Ved and people in this era worshiped only nature. No idol worshiping was done in this era. No temples were present. However, as this era ended, a new era evolved, which is known as Later Vedic Era, which extended from 1000 B.C - 600 B.C. It was in this era that Sama-Ved, Yajur-Ved, Athar-Ved, Brahamanas etc. were written and also it was during this era that the idol worshiping came into existence and is continued till date. Hope I was able to answer your question.

BTW, I first started reading about this when I went to a Hindu temple in the East Bay with a Sri Lankan friend.

I was struck by the obvious similarity of the service to the Catholic services I grew up with: priest, alter boy, "saints" around the perimeter of the temple, chanting in unison, communion (honey and ash in this case), incense, etc.

The gods were very different, but the service was very similar to what I was familiar with.

Patrick says

BTW, I first started reading about this when I went to a Hindu temple in the East Bay with a Sri Lankan friend.

I was struck by the obvious similarity of the service to the Catholic services I grew up with: priest, alter boy, "saints" around the perimeter of the temple, chanting in unison, communion (honey and ash in this case), incense, etc.

The gods were very different, but the service was very similar to what I was familiar with.

I guess we would all be better off worshiping nature and its forces like ancient people.
It would also have no conflict with evolution, big bang or science.

Business folks developed concept of "God" away from nature worship for their own benefits. I love older Indian sects before Islam and Hindooo.
Sikhi wouldn't be needed if the above two haven't wrecked havoc in Bharat.

Here is what Sikh scriptures say:(somewhat conflicting)
1) God is one
2) God is present everywhere and nothing happens without his will.

I guess God=Nature as per my knowledge of what Sikh gurus mean.

There's a good line in the Old Testament, where God says "I am that I am."

I interpret this to mean that God is what is, ie nature, the universe, everything everywhere.

I don't actually think there is a conscious God, but it makes sense to me that you have to obey nature or it will kill you. It has commandments.

Patrick says

There's a good line in the Old Testament, where God says "I am that I am."

I interpret this to mean that God is what is, ie nature, the universe, everything everywhere.

I don't actually think there is a conscious God, but it makes sense to me that you have to obey nature or it will kill you. It has commandments.

Yes it rarely end well when communists try to become God and disobey nature(God).

Patrick says

I was just reading about how Christianity actually merged with "paganism" (a derogatory term) to some degree.

The Christians simply rebranded a lot of pagan deities as Christian saints,, and Mary merged with Artemis/Diana.

And these pagan deities were similar to Hindu gods. The ancient European religions were related to Hinduism.

Christmas = Saturnalia (in reality Christ was born in March or April).

Ancient European religions were a mix of proto-Indoeuropean and Middle Eastern farmer religions, so there is a similarity with Hinduism which arose from proto-INDOeuropean religion, just like Greek and Roman religions, as well as Germanic, Slavic, etc religions.

Christianity itself is an outgrowth of Zoroastrianism of Ancient Persia or more precisely Tabriz region of what is now Iranian Azerbaijan. Many tales in Bible come from even older sources, such as Akkadian Gilgamesh tales of 3000 BC which presumably entered Bible via Jews captured by Assyrians and who were exposed to Zoroastrian religion.

It is really sad that monotheistic religions were able to kill of the rest of religions together with large numbers of adherents of those religions. I am from a part of world which was decimated in Northern Crusades.

Patrick says

"pagan" religion (which lasted quite late in the Baltics).

Samogitia was Christianized only in 15th century. It is presumably the last pagan part of Europe, and many thousands of years of history were extinguished when they were converted in 1413. Curiously, Samogitians and their northern neighbors Curonians also have the highest proportion of genetic ancestry from West European hunter gatherers (over 60%), who are the original inhabitants of Europe, before ME farmers and Indo Europeans. I'd say there are/were quite conservative people...resisted any damned novelties for a long time.

The Mari people are said to still be largely pagan, though they are Finnic and not properly Indo-European, at least by language.

The rural Irish are still obviously pagan in a lot of ways in spite of being devoutly Catholic. They have holy wells, holy trees, etc, with adapted legends to Christianize them.

Bd6r says

Curonians also have the highest proportion of genetic ancestry from West European hunter gatherers (over 60%), who are the original inhabitants of Europe, before ME farmers and Indo Europeans

I was under the impression that the Basque people are a remnant of the original inhabitants of Europe.

Patrick says

I was under the impression that the Basque people are a remnant of the original inhabitants of Europe.

Wonder how much Neaderthal DNA these aborigines have in them.

Patrick says

I was under the impression that the Basque people are a remnant of the original inhabitants of Europe.

The first "modern human" inhabitants were Western hunter-gatherers, but the population was very low. They were mostly replaced by and mixed with Middle Eastern farmers, who spoke languages other than Indo-European, and one of those languages was ancestor to Basque language. This is supported by latest genetic analysis. Purest ME farmer descendants can be found on Sardinia, where they were not mixed with or displaced by Indo-Europeans.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#EEF-WHG-ANE

Look for WHG admixture.

I have also read that Irish has an old substrate of language similar to Basque, which would make some sense.

Patrick says

The rural Irish are still obviously pagan in a lot of ways in spite of being devoutly Catholic. They have holy wells, holy trees, etc, with adapted legends to Christianize them.

Most North Europeans have Midsummer festivals which are extremely pagan (Swedish, Baltics, Belorussians, etc).

Bd6r says

Midsummer festivals

Yup.

At sunset on June 23rd, another of the ancient fire festivals begins. This midsummer festival was known as St. John's Eve, or Bonfire Night, and not that long ago, it was a wide-spread tradition throughout Ireland.

The following description is edited from a piece written in 1943 by an old schoolmaster who lived in West Limerick:

"...old people of thirty years ago and more remembered how the fire used to be lit exactly at sunset and had to be watched and tended until long after midnight. Prayers use to be said to obtain God's blessing on the crops, then at the peak-point of summer bloom.

https://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ACalend/StJohnsEve.html

Patrick says

At sunset on June 23rd, another of the ancient fire festivals begins. This midsummer festival was known as St. John's Eve, or Bonfire Night, and not that long ago, it was a wide-spread tradition throughout Ireland.

Remnants of old religion which Bronze age demagogue ((c) Hitchens) invented Christianity could not extinguish - nearly the same traditions thousands of miles away

https://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/18095/

Celebrating Midsummer is an old pagan tradition of magic and mystery that has survived everything from Christianity to Soviet occupation. It's considered one of the most important holidays in the Baltic states, rivaling 's and perhaps even surpassing 's Christmas.

The Midsummer is festival, known as Jonines in Lithuanian, Jani in Latvian and Jaaniohtu in Estonian, marks not only the shortest night of the year, but also a change in the farming cycle 's from spring sowing and planting to summer reaping, harvesting and hay-making. This is one of the things that makes it a very nature-oriented day, focusing on birth, growth and fertility. It also means that for the most part people will spend the weekend out in the countryside, among nature, visiting friends and family.

The most important and widespread Midsummer tradition is the lighting of huge bonfires. The bonfires which dot the countryside are believed to have purifying powers and are used for a number of different traditions surrounding the holiday. In Latvia, at least some of the bonfires should be built on top of a "mountain" (the term has to be used loosely since the highest hill in Latvia is only about 311 meters), or failing that a wheel soaked in tar and wrapped with straw is lit and raised to the top of a tall pole.
In Estonia, the fires are often built using the scrap wood from old fishing boats, especially on the islands of Saaremaa and Hiiumaa. The Estonian midsummer fires help to frighten away mischievous spirits, thus ensuring a good harvest. Also, to not light a fire would be to invite a highly destructive fire into one's home.
Tradition has it that young couples soon to be married jump over the fire together, or young suitors jump over in hopes of finding a bride. Young couples and lucky suitors then disappear into the woods to search for magical springs that can heal wounds and bring long life. The water from these springs is only magical on midsummer's night, but can have amazing healing powers if found. Upon failing to find the magical fountains, the searchers instead settle for running naked through the morning dew.

Colonials wrote constitution to treat Hindus a second class citizen to extract economic resources. After "they left" in 1947, same constitution still being continued with minor changes and glorified the colonials pan Gandhi who silenced natives.

Bd6r says

The most important and widespread Midsummer tradition is the lighting of huge bonfires.

I wish we would still do this.