patrick.net

Bought gas for the first time in a while... Plenty of gas available, but this particular gas station it took me 4 pumps to find one that works.

If you can work from home, get the hell out of urban areas. Get an ICE car and enjoy life. EV's will eventually be the future and they can work in cities. But they're not practical if you move about.

And I get not everyone is the same, but my wife for example as been to Springfield, IL 3 times in 3 weeks, Kentucky and Thursday we go to the Ozarks hauling clients. An EV wouldn't work for that. Which is fine, I'm not bashing. Just certain lifestyles and work just don't allow for them currently. We also deal with the cold weather as well and have a damn carport, so any EV we get will be outside. February this year averaged like 20* for a high. Not good for any kind of battery.

Shaman says

I drove behind a Mirai earlier this week. There was definitely a lot of splashing coming out of its tail pipe. All ICE vehicles make water as a byproduct but this thing had a steady stream.

Yeah, I got behind one about 1.5 years ago. I hate those things. It was pissing all over the ground and splashing up on the hood of my car and windshield. I wasn't THAT close. Terrible idea.

ThreeBays says

I've driven electric for 8 years now, powered by sunshine.

I presume you use solar panels exclusively to charge your car? A guy in my area has a Nissan Leaf he will only recharge using the solar panels on the roof of his detached garage, He also lives "net zero" in his main house, which means the solar array on the roof of his house puts more into the electric grid than it takes out. He does, of course, have to do some adjusting in life style to make this work.

HeadSet says

the solar array on the roof of his house puts more into the electric grid than it takes out.

What's the point? They are paying peanuts for that.

Eric Holder says

HeadSet says

the solar array on the roof of his house puts more into the electric grid than it takes out.

What's the point? They are paying peanuts for that.

Actually in Va, they are not paying at all. It is called "net zero" because the best you can do is have a $0 electric bill. Any excess power just turns the meter backwards and is thus credited to future electric use. That is fair when you think about it, since the power company acts like the battery and has the infrastructure.

Even if solar did not make money, it is like a hobby. Just like the guy who has a large bass boat and dualee equipped F-150 to haul it just so he can go fishing. The fisherman could save plenty by forgoing the boat and getting his fish at the local market.

HeadSet says

What's the point? They are paying peanuts for that.

Actually in Va, they are not paying at all. It is called "net zero" because the best you can do is have a $0 electric bill. Any excess power just turns the meter backwards and is thus credited to future electric use.

But if his system is oversized (which is sounds like it is), he'll never get that wattage back. He basically paid to give electricity to the utility which will happily turn around and re-sell it at retail.

But if his system is oversized (which is sounds like it is), he'll never get that wattage back. He basically paid to give electricity to the utility which will happily turn around and re-sell it at retail.

True, but the trade-off is he gets power at night and at times when he is running his AC and concurrently oven/dryer. The solar guy gets an uninterrupted power, while the power company keeps any excess electricity.

HeadSet says

True, but the trade-off is he gets power at night and at times when he is running his AC and concurrently oven/dryer. The solar guy gets an uninterrupted power, while the power company keeps any excess electricity.

He would get the same if his system was sized properly.

I don't get solar on houses honestly. I get you can have free electricity, but how big are most people's bills and how long will you live there prior to payoff? You're basically paying for electricity upfront with a potential for roof leaks and damage to your home. Insurance rates likely go up if you want to protect them from a tree falling, hurricane, hail storm, tornado, etc. And the ultimate X factor that you might move in 2-3 years for a new job and be paying for someone else to enjoy free electric.

I've looked into them and the math doesn't work for my region unless I lived here for the rest of my life and under the assumption there'd never need to be repairs on the panels themselves. I also live next to one of the larger wind farms in the country and our rates are super reasonable. Pool pump, AC, lights, 4 fridge/freezers, dishwasher, 9 tv's (I think) and our bill is usually ~$100.

$1,200 x 10 years doesn't even cover the cost of a system to be net zero and that doesn't account for interest if financed. They make sense out in CA probably because you have to pinch every penny just to live there. Not so much in other parts of the country with higher percentage of cloud cover and it being 1/2 the cost to rent or own.

WookieMan says

I get you can have free electricity, but how big are most people's bills and how long will you live there prior to payoff? You're basically paying for electricity upfront with a potential for roof leaks and damage to your home. Insurance rates likely go up if you want to protect them from a tree falling, hurricane, hail storm, tornado, etc. And the ultimate X factor that you might move in 2-3 years for a new job and be paying for someone else to enjoy free electric.

running the AC all summer and a few more month more (end of spring, beginning of fall) can add up in places like California
Its paid of for all my houses and I never intend to sell a house. (rental properties)
no high trees next to my house(s).....kinda defeats the purpose of having solar if you have large trees next to your house.....solar runs better with full exposure ;)
hurricanes, hail storms, tornados and alien invasions are rather rare where I live (SoCal).

and btw paid off solar adds to the house value. Not that I want to sell, just saying. Its a no brainer to me when you live in sunny states. Plus, the future is EV car's....

Bitcoin says

and btw paid off solar adds to the house value.

I'd disagree with this. It's an expensive appliance regardless of weather and sunlight. It's a sunk cost. You're prepaying electricity. The higher the rates the higher the cost of the system.

You'll get sold on the fact the system will be paid off in 7-10 years, that's pure bullshit. I've installed this shit on houses we've built in Chicago. It's a scam. Even in the most ideal settings. You need a massive array for it to be worthwhile. I likely wouldn't look at a house with solar because I know it's a potential massive expense to remove or repair. Similar to pools.

Basically a house is not worth more with solar panels. You can believe the lobby, but trust me as this was an industry I worked in, real estate, solar panels absolutely do not make a house more valuable.

Sounds like your electric bills are reasonable. Nothing a 300% tax hike can't cure to get you onto the better life through better taxes scheme.

I've been looking at the price of solar for maybe 15 years, and the math has never worked out to be a good investment for me, until recently. The cost of solar has come down a lot, seemingly thanks to tesla's recent price drop, which seems to have made competitors also drop prices. But also, the price of CA electricity keeps rising - I now pay 0.25 to 0.55 per kwh, which is crazy.

My elec bills are usually 80/mo, which is on the low side. But I'm still considering a 4KW system - tesla estimates they will do it for $6500, and another company estimates $7500.

My model, which uses an opportunity cost of 7% per year for capital, and a 2% annual growth rate on the electric bill, still says its worth it.

Hircus says

My model, which uses an opportunity cost of 7% per year for capital

Come on man. That money is in a savings account earning zip. Seven percent is a fever dream at this point...

EBGuy says

That money is in a savings account

What money is in savings account? Who the fuck does that anymore?

EBGuy says

Hircus says

My model, which uses an opportunity cost of 7% per year for capital

Come on man. That money is in a savings account earning zip. Seven percent is a fever dream at this point...

I don't think it makes sense to compare an investment with deposits in a bank account. Almost all investments would compare to show superior to money in a bank account, which is obvious. Its like comparing apples and oranges. I think one should compare apples to apples, investment to investment.

7% is the long term average return of the s&p. If I invest in solar, or some other investment, the capital to fund it will be money that does not go into my s&p fund, and thus, it better be a superior investment, otherwise why do it? Obviously risk is another factor to consider when comparing, and I actually think solar has some risk due to unknown future electricity prices and regulations, in addition to various other things. But it arguably has less risk than stocks, which would be in solar's favor.

Most people who do "solar math" compare to returns of a bank account (in other words, nothing), and this is greatly in solar's favor, making solar look like a no brainer. But IMO they're fooling themselves, unless this person truly does not invest, and actually does keep all their money in a bank account. Solar salesmen prey on such people.

Honestly, I think almost all financial decisions, investments, purchases, etc... should consider cost of capital aka opportunity cost. IMO it puts things in perspective by showing you the true cost, the true impact of making the decision.

FuckCCP89 says

What money is in savings account? Who the fuck does that anymore?

I was doing my taxes the year wondering why the hell I didn't get a 1099 for the cash I had in E*Trade -- essentially an emergency fund that we're all supposed to have.. Less than $10 interest and they don't report to IRS. Yikes.

Hircus says

Honestly, I think almost all financial decisions, investments, purchases, etc... should consider cost of capital aka opportunity cost. IMO it puts things in perspective by showing you the true cost, the true impact of making the decision.

Yes, we all had an engineering economics course and it is good to put it to use. I was, probably, mostly critical of the relative risk which you acknowledged is in solar's favor. Exciting to see combo of falling prices, incentives and the CA PUC making solar competitive with the S&P500!

FuckCCP89 says

What money is in savings account? Who the fuck does that anymore?

The only thing more bizarre than that, is banks even bothering to advertising their CD Rates.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

FuckCCP89 says

What money is in savings account? Who the fuck does that anymore?

The only thing more bizarre than that, is banks even bothering to advertising their CD Rates.

They count on the average public-school educated person not to be able to tell the difference between 1% and 0.01%

Seriously.

You guys consider "opportunity cost" for a $20k plus solar system, as to what investment returns you forgo to put money in solar. I would suspect most solar buyers are borrowers, so their costs would involve interest payments instead.

Patrick says

They count on the average public-school educated person not to be able to tell the difference between 1% and 0.01%

Seriously.

I would think someone that ignorant would not have money to invest anyway.

FuckCCP89 says

What money is in savings account? Who the fuck does that anymore?

We should have some to tide us over for emergencies. Saving or checking, either one as long as it's FDIC insured.

HeadSet says

. I would suspect most solar buyers are borrowers, so their costs would involve interest payments instead.

Those folks usually go the lease route. The Leasing company gets the rebates and can depreciate the panels as a business expense.

The 30 year Treasury is at 2.36%, which doubles your money over that period.

EBGuy says

HeadSet says

. I would suspect most solar buyers are borrowers, so their costs would involve interest payments instead.

Those folks usually go the lease route. The Leasing company gets the rebates and can depreciate the panels as a business expense.

Is there a difference? You're paying the interest for someone else either way. No different than the renters that say they don't have to pay property taxes. Hell yes you are.

WookieMan says

Is there a difference? You're paying the interest for someone else either way.

No, I was mostly pointing out the "advantage" that the leasing operations have. In a highly competitive landscape they just might pass some of those savings on to the homeowner (though unlikely). More likely that it ends up in the hands of investors or shareholders (or you sell the company to your cousin).

EBGuy says

WookieMan says

Is there a difference? You're paying the interest for someone else either way.

No, I was mostly pointing out the "advantage" that the leasing operations have. In a highly competitive landscape they just might pass some of those savings on to the homeowner (though unlikely). More likely that it ends up in the hands of investors or shareholders (or you sell the company to your cousin).

I get what you're saying. Solar doesn't make sense where I'm at unless I install a large array and not just on the roof. I'd need ground based panels. I'd be looking at $20k+ roughly to get a net zero system. Maybe $30k due to a tree.

Honestly, utilities are not that expensive in general depending on how you live. I can turn on every single light in my house and wattage wise it would maybe be 300 watts. You're better off investing in LED's, motion sensor switches, etc. I've dropped maybe 1K on all that and have saved easily $80/mo. Pool pump was a biggie two years ago. That cut the bill ~$25/mo on just that appliance.

We also get hail storms every year no matter what. Solar would get destroyed by some of them as we're talking golf ball and bigger falling from the sky.

WookieMan says

utilities are not that expensive in general depending

Heh heh.

My March bill was 31 cents per kw-hr. "Only" 27 cents/kwhr in April.

To say nothing of the water bills. 75% to 80% of Californians live in the LA-San Diego area or SF Bay. Our water is imported from very far away via canals, aqueducts, levees, pipelines. Across major earthquake faults. Nearly all of it is pumped against gravity up and over mountains. (It's true that much of Hetch Hetchy is gravity fed. But not all of it). This makes our water horribly expensive (appropriately so). And it makes our Hipster Smug existence fragile.

B.A.C.A.H. says

This makes our water horribly expensive (appropriately so).

Any reason why de-salinization is not used? As I was told by a local water works exec in VA, it can be done using higher screen pressure, but the cost exceeds cleaning fresh water from local reservoirs. If California already has a high price, why not?

HeadSet says

Any reason why de-salinization is not used?

It is being used in certain places. Carlsbad comes to mind as one of them.

HeadSet says

If California already has a high price, why not?

Good Idea. There are projects here and there in our state, and probably more to come.

What I've read, is that the cost would be about 2x what we pay for imported water from our Rube Goldberg system.

Considering what we'd get (fresh water), for what we'd pay, even 2x would still be up there with 3 cents per MegaJoule for gasoline energy, as one of the Bargains of the Millenia.

What is the energy source used for desalinization?

B.A.C.A.H. says

3 cents per MegaJoule for gasoline energy

Interesting concept here. I can see using Joules to measure energy use of something like a clothes dryer where current and resistance heating are involved and price is by kWatt-hour. I suppose one could use the "newton-meters" aspect like foot-pounds of torque, and apply time to get a "horsepower" like equivalent. More interesting than the dreary old concept of "Watts" in an ICE. Maybe even cooler to measure gasoline potential energy in "calories."

I hear it takes about 15 horsepower (11 kWatts) to keep a car cruising at 60mph.
So to drive 60 miles, that would be 1 hour so about 11,000 watts times 3600 seconds or 39.6 of your MegaJoules. So at 3 cents per, about $1.19, your Bargain of the Millenia.
This was fun but of course meaningless, since ICE cars use miles/gallon and energy potential does not translate directly to work.

Patrick says

What is the energy source used for desalinization?

Electricity.

HeadSet says

This was fun but of course meaningless

Yes, I know. My point is that nothing beats the energy density of gasoline and the other petroleum distillate fuels.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Patrick says

What is the energy source used for desalinization?

Electricity.

Isn't there enough desert to make a huge solar desalinization plant there?

zzyzzx says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Patrick says

What is the energy source used for desalinization?

Electricity.

Isn't there enough desert to make a huge solar desalinization plant there?

It would be silly to build a desal plant in the desert. They belong on the coast.The panels are in the desert already.

BTW, desalinization plants could be a perfect dump of all that excess solar energy generated during the day. It would depend, of course, if they can be safely stopped for the night.

B.A.C.A.H. says

nothing beats the energy density of gasoline and the other petroleum distillate fuels

I read a book about this once. A physicist said that nothing will ever beat fossil fuels not only because of the energy density, but also because the other reactant (oxygen) does not need to be carried, and the waste products are immediately expelled, making the vehicle lighter as it runs. Neither of those is true with batteries.

But who really knows? It was assumed that it was impossible to make little battery powered drones until people discovered neodymium magnets and lithium batteries.