patrick.net

What's funny is that some on this board are mad at "Far Right Wingers"

@WookieMan was one of the most moderate members of the Forum. Now it's pretty clear he's not voting Blue this year.

Was it the Pat.net right wingers, or the Dem-Media malarky?

socal2 says

*"New York Gov. Cuomo says Trump has no authority to impose quarantine: ‘It would be illegal’"*
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/ny-gov-cuomo-says-trump-has-no-authority-to-impose-quarantine.html

Trump has no authority here! I am in Command!

It's all Trump's Fault!

logic says

A great leader wouldn't be having these problems. Trump might have a few of these qualities but not enough to be considered a great leader. Check out #20.
He definitely lacks that.

I don't think you're getting my point.

You can't claim one day that all the authority rests with the Governors, then a few days later put all the blame on the President.

Well, you can, but it looks ridiculous.

That list above is rubbish. You simply have to be both Fox and Lion. Many leaders have no humility, for example, and pretty much almost all leaders in history would have laughed at Transparency and said you need just the opposite - Obfuscation.

logic says

Yet Obama was always at fault 😂 sad

Agreed! He was the worse fucking president ever. He never prosecuted the bankers and ran that insurance scam.

Severe sufferers of TDS think that if you don't hate Trump you support everything he does. Take a pill.

logic says

Lol, @wookieman who is blaming an airborne virus on an individual? Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Interesting, I never referenced you. Never said the word you or used your username in my comment. Why would you think it was directed at you? I'm also not sure why you're arguing about arguments. Seems silly.

logic says

logic says

Lol, @wookieman who is blaming an airborne virus on an individual? Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Interesting, I never referenced you. Never said the word you or used your username in my comment. Why would you think it was directed at you? I'm also not sure why you're arguing about arguments. Seems silly.

I'm a bit confused. Did you not say someone was trolling? One who is arguing that Trump started the virus? Sorry if I misunderstood this.

You called out my username. You asked a question that was clearly directed at my comment. Why? If you didn't think it was about you, why respond with my username? Why respond at all? Why do you need or want to know who it was directed at? We're not supposed to talk about other users here, which I didn't.

There are easily a handful of people in this thread that disagree with my view on this virus and what I'm saying. It's cute that you assume I was talking about you. Maybe I meant multiple people. Maybe I meant people in general that troll this topic, but not on this board/forum. I'm not going to directly call a user of this forum a troll. Not taking the bait.

You seem to be upset that maybe, just maybe we're right that COVID deaths are being over reported. NoCoup gave you a link. You then shifted to Trump being a shit leader and not addressing actual evidence that it's being categorized poorly or intentionally reported wrong. We can talk about "straw man" all day instead of just acknowledging the actual fact COVID deaths aren't accurate.

We somehow have 20X's the deaths of China with a 1/4 of the population. We're 3X's higher than the nearest country in overall deaths. Either the rest of the world is bull shitting stats or we are. We are the outlier in the data by a long shot. It's strange to see people bash their own government so hard, yet trust the data that it puts out on this virus. Strange, isn't it?

Onvacation says

Severe sufferers of TDS think that if you don't hate Trump you support everything he does. Take a pill.

Good insight.

Yes, somehow they think it's binary and have no room for subtlety.

logic says

Time to place the blame squarely where it should be, on the president.

logic says

logic says

I question why you say someone is making an argument that is obviously not being made.

WookieMan says

It's an airborne virus, anyone blaming it on any individual is slightly retarded.

It wasn't directed at you, but I suppose I could see why you thought that way now....

jazz_music says

Still don’t see a point here?

No. Tax returns are not required. Being a US citizen is. It's more than fair, well technically legal, to make sure our POTUS is a US citizen.

I'm not agreeing with the way Trump went about it by any means, but he technically had every right to question his citizenry. That's pretty much indisputable. So I still don't understand your point... Just say you didn't like how Trump asked about a legal factor in becoming POTUS. Not sure what tax returns have to do with it.

logic says

those 2 arguments are not the same. It appears to me that you are trying to say a user is making an argument that they are not and I am calling you out on that. Is that not allowed?

Quack! Quack!

logic says

. I find it odd that if this came from china the east coast has been hit the hardest.

When you put sick contagious people in nursing homes with people that have a lot of comorbidities what would you expect?

If I were a conspiracy theorist I might think it was planned.

logic says

Why say someone is making an argument they are not making?

logic says

Last I checked he was the president and at the beginning he denied there was a problem, now some how that's new York's fault? It's sad that some are so deranged that they can't find Trump at fault for anything, it's always someone else's fault.

You are clearly acting like it's Trump's fault for an airborne virus. I'm not sure how else this could be interpreted? I don't get the disconnect here. These are your own words???... are they not? You keep defending something like you didn't say it.

It's a virus. Trump, Bush, Obama, etc. ain't gonna stop it. It's going to kill who it's going to kill. But hey, Trump bad.

WookieMan says

It's a virus. Trump, Bush, Obama, etc. ain't gonna stop it. It's going to kill who it's going to kill. But hey, Trump bad.

It would be one thing if the US was doing uniquely bad compared to other Western Countries in Wuhan AIDS fatalities.

If we removed Cuomo and DeBlasio's fuck-ups in New York, America would be the envy of the world in combating this Pandemic.

logic says

I am saying Trump is a terrible leader and he responded poorly to the virus. I never once said that he is responsible for the virus

These are the same. You're implying that the spread could have been prevented by an individual. I never once said you think Trump created (or is responsible) for the virus. My reaction has been to the fact you think Trump or any POTUS had/has control over the spread of an airborne virus. The reaction by Trump has zero bearing on the spread as we've seen with multiple countries. But you've mentioned Trump multiple time. It's an airborne virus, has nothing to do with individual people and decisions made.

For fuck's sake, look at Socal's graph above? What other country would you live in that's not on that list? Most first world countries are dealing with this worse than the US (aka Trump in your world). I'm questioning our own stats with information that I know to be true and the reaction is Trump bad (I never brought him up) with no other evidence. I'm at a loss at this point with your logic.

logic says

It didn't offer any real proof of over counting just that it is unclear if it is happening or not.

Just admit there's not ever going to be proof for you. The theater is on fire and you're the one guy still talking about yelling fire in a crowded theater when it is in fact on fire. It's a stubborn stance when there's evidence out there, actual, anecdotal and hearsay. You're under the assumption everyone is lying to you. I'm not sure what the gain is on some random internet forum. I have zero reason to lie and every reason to protect my friendships and careers by NOT posting evidence here.

logic says

I'm not going to find it but I've said how much debt we have incurred under Trump.

I hate debt. Throwing money at lazy people is the worst possible option. We would have been better off letting 400k die as that would have saved money long term. Being dead serious given the demo of who is dying from this. It's harsh, but the people dying are draining the economy outside of healthcare. Their deaths are a positive.

logic says

Now you have called me a retard for the second time (first time was the tax argument). I'm dyslexic I've had difficulty with reading and writing my whole life. I write here because it's good practice.

I don't recall calling you a retard directly. My apologies if you took it that way. Also, if you have some ailment, I'm obviously not aware of it, so again, my apologies if I offended. Not my intention.

Your statements/comments have shifted from virus concerns to blaming Trump for the reaction. There is no "right" reaction to an airborne virus. There's no proof that decision x, y or z would have changed the trajectory. It's not possible. We have different countries, different health care systems, densities, demographics, etc. Even 2 years from now we're not going to have a clear picture. People have bias' and agendas. To think you'll ever know the truth is futile when so much of the data can be manipulated.

logic says

That you assumed I was talking about lives lost is not on me. I'm talking about wealth loss. But somehow his slow and terrible response is everyone else's fault.

Seems like some major goal post shifting here.

All of the government's lockdowns were justified under the reasoning of saving lives and giving our hospitals time to prepare and stock up on PPE and ventilators.

Besides, the biggest wealth lost is coming from Democrat run Blue States that have enacted the strictest and longest lockdowns like California, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Connecticut....

Seems like some major goal post shifting here.
All of the government's lock downs were justified under the reasoning of saving lives and giving our hospitals time to prepare and stock up on PPE and ventilators.
Besides, the biggest wealth lost is coming from Democrat run Blue States that have enacted the strictest and longest lockdowns like California, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Connecticut....
I agree and add that several beloved blue ideas are endangered by COVID-19:
Reusable grocery bags
mass transit
high density housing (or anything else)
PLEASE ADD TO THE LIST

Chinese would like you to believe this is caused by Trump and US. CNN would like to blame Trump. WHO would like you to believe Chinese did everything right. And President Trump went against the advise of WHO to block the Chinese. And CNN and Washington Post called him racist. Don't forget CNN stands for Chinese News Network. Do you know how many Chinese editors work for these companies? It is not funny.

Now, Chinese government is calling Trump racist for blaming Chinese government for cover up.

I don't get why we blame President Trump? Because CNN and Washington Post and New York Time had manipulate the people's opinion by deception and withholding information from the public. And it is working. It is sickening.

logic says

People really make themselves look stupid trying to protect Trump all the time.

logic says

Well accept for the FACT that fiscal response was achieved by taking on debt. Funny you overlook this connection. If US debt loads are not related to fiscal response please explain where the money has come from for our fiscal response if not from new debt?

It came first from Congress approving the debt and relief. Trump just approved what hundreds of other people approved and came up with. Had he not done it you'd be shitting on him. He signed it and you're still shitting on it. What was your solution? I hate the debt FYI. I don't think a bunch of shit heads should have gotten money they haven't paid a damn dollar towards. It is what it is.

logic says

Only because they pay most into the federal coffers. Red states tend to suck on governments tit while blue states are the government tit that gets sucked on.

Blue states redistribute wealth from actually productive red states with economic policies (strong dollar), financial instruments, and tertiary services to themselves. They organize the outsourcing of companies abroad and support the insourcing of H1Bs.

Workers and Owners alike in Blue States then flee to Red States, bringing their failed policy preferences with them.

California's Big Tech isn't the natural wonderstuff of Liberals. It's from Cold War Aerospace spending, gleaned from the entire country, conglomerating there and then expanding locally into electronics and computers.

logic says

I am shitting on Trump's poor and slow response and saying a better response might have caused less debt to be incurred.

Might have, would have, could have. Seems like all you have is after-the-fact speculation. Considering everything we know about the Covid virus today, he should have kept everything running and we’d have not needed ANY stimulus bills! We’d have lost more Libtards, but is that really a loss?

logic says

I am shitting on Trump's poor and slow response and saying a better response might have caused less debt to be incurred.

How? What response would have been better?

There's no misrepresentation of what you're saying. All you're saying is Trump is bad with zero alternative. What could Congress or POTUS have done different in your mind for a virus response?

My answer is time wasn't an issue. It was here before anyone even knew it. Before the dude in Washington state. We had organizations we give a lot of money to lie to us. Other countries lie to us. I'm not sure what response would have been better? There's also no way to prove that one approach was better than another. You're making a mountain out of mole hill over something that is completely uncontrollable.

logic says

Shaman says

he should have kept everything running and we’d have not needed ANY stimulus bills!

My point exactly a leader might have achieved this. Trump did not.

Meh. Time traveling criticism isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Just like criticism that depends on mind-reading isn’t worth anything. If you ever develop a valid critique I will listen, but so far you got bupkiss!

WookieMan says

How? What response would have been better?

ORANGE MAN BAD

The consideration that perhaps Trump is not the worst possible president is consistently overlooked by people one might otherwise regard as sane.

Congratulations to Edward Bernays. His techniques have proven amazingly effective on a large segment of the population.

https://academyofideas.com/2017/07/edward-bernays-group-psychology-manipulating-the-masses/

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of…in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.

ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD

There is literally no other thought in the minds of nearly half of the public. No particular reason that they can point to, but they don't question why they have this obsession and keep on watching the media. All reasoning is shut down with:

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the world actually did not end when Trump was elected."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the stock market did extremely well."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But unemployment hit record lows."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"He didn't start any wars, and in fact led us away from expensive violent foreign entanglements."

ORANGE MAN BAD

It's very sad really. You know the hate is eating them up inside, and you don't really want to see them suffer like that. There are worse things, but to watch such insanity is definitely among the saddest things around.

The best response may just be a gentle skepticism. "Really? He doesn't seem all that bad."

Do you really think there is nothing Trump could have done differently in his response that might have made for a better response?

Sure. Trump could have cut funding earlier that he did for the WHO, like right after the WHO claimed CV-19 could not spread human to human. Trump could have been more vocal pointing out how Pelosi and Cuomo were wrong to encourage mass gatherings after Covid arrived, and especially vocal about how it was a really bad (and possibly criminal) idea for Cuoma to force senior care facilities to accept known CV-9 cases. Cuomo's policies alone is why NY has about half the CV-19 fatalities for the nation.

jazz_music says

the volumes of reasons that have been offered to suggest that Trump is actually the grifting petty liar he appears to always have been as far back as the examples of racial housing discrimination in Section 8 subsidized buildings

Just because Trump has been known to associate with racist grifters doesn't mean he is one.

jazz_music says

So you’re saying that Trump hasn’t been partisan enough.

But the opposition is afflicted by blind hatred?

That's one way to put it. Trump has definitely not been exactly a fiscal or social conservative. His one theme is love for America and Americans. His opponents theme is hate for Trump.

logic says

jazz_music says

imported laborers from Poland which he refused to pay

Trump use illegal aliens, inconceivable

Was that in 1973?

marcus says

marcus says

Misc says

Yes, cancer deaths, pneumonia deaths, deaths from the flu, and deaths from heart issues are all down and can be attributed to blindly ascribing Covid as the cause of death.

Interesting. Would you please share source(s) on this ?

www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg

I answered back on 377. Sorry I didn't use the quote function, but I figured most would just follow the thread.

logic says

Do you really think there is nothing Trump could have done differently in his response that might have made for a better response?

No, nothing that would have affected the outcome of an airborne virus that was already spreading around before anyone even thought it was here. Anyone's words and actions would have been too late to have made a dent in this virus because the people we paid on things like this flat out lied.

I don't like the way Trump speaks and behaves much the time. But again, it has zero influence on an already spreading virus. Our top "expert" on this said don't wear masks, even once we had a better idea of the extent of the outbreak. WHO lie. China lied. Trump veers left when everyone is telling him go right and everyone would be calling for impeachment 2.0. Fact is Trump listened to his advisors. If he didn't he'd get blasted as fucking up. And when he does, it's too little too late and a fuck up in Trump hating world. Many don't even give him a chance because they got the blinders on and have been brainwashed.

Now on to Cuomo to balance this out. He fucked up with the nursing homes, but in all honesty where the hell was he going to put them? And again China and WHO lied about the who, what, when and where of this virus for months. I'm actually pretty balanced politically (Independent) so it's hard for me to bus toss Cuomo for a new virus everyone was lying about. It'll go in the mistake column for sure, but the way NYC is built, it was likely to spread in the places it hit anyway.

There's zero correlation to Trumps words and actions to the number of cases and deaths. None. Show me some proof that Trumps words and actions changed the outcome and spread of CV-19?

logic says

It's the speaking and behavior that I question and how it calms the fears of a country.

Who the fuck said anyone is afraid or fearful? Who is afraid of something they cannot control? That makes no sense. I don't look to some other individual to take care of me or calm my fears for me. I deal with the situation. If you're afraid of this virus, stay the fuck home. Trump has nothing to do with the topic and can't do anything for you anyway. Government is the absolute last place you should put your trust in.

logic says

Did I say there was?

Then WTF does Trump have to do with a virus!!! You keep bringing him up, not me. The OP is a discussion about the death rate of a virus! Yet somehow Trump has something to do with a naturally occurring virus? There's not an argument to be had here and you keep arguing about how to argue... Huh?

You're correlating the behavior of Trump and some weak people's fears. What is the point in that exercise? Just bash Trump in the many other threads that are readily available for that type of thing. Especially after AF's outburst. We're talking the death rate for this virus and that lead to discussion of over counting natural cause or comorbidity deaths with regards to COVID-19. COVID-19 had nothing to do with Trump. Zero. If you're afraid, then vote in a better leader, go to church, find a therapist or whatever. You don't like Trump, we get it. We don't care. Especially with regards to a topic that doesn't involve him.

logic says

Is that the year? So 40 plus years of using illegal labor.

Sad😢

Sometimes TDS makes you not see the facts of a situation and makes one look really hard for confirmation even if it is tangential and half a century old.

jazz_music says

. (Trump was also found to have improperly withheld compensation in the undocumented Polish worker controversy.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/donald-trump-scandals/474726/

logic says

The posted article doesn't address why or if over counting is happening It's really not a source for the argument trying to be made.

logic says

I referred to straw man fallacy

logic says

I had to endure straw man after straw man

logic says

with the same straw man.

logic says

the straw men keep coming out to play.

You do know that straws are illegal in many leftist enclaves, don'tcha?

logic says

Those who try to argue Trump doesn't lie are obviously deranged.

Hyperbole and exaggeration, yes. Tell us what you think Trump's biggest baddest lie is?

logic says

Do you honestly believe that this country got shut down without people having fear?

Yes. Because we have affluenza and alienation, millions of Karens saw this as a fantastic opportunity to actualize their sense of superiority.

Additionally, millions of school teachers and government workers saw their chance to get paid without working.

And most of all, the virus is incredibly overhyped in the desperation to find a crisis to stick on Trump.

Which is why we never hear about Pelosi and DeBlasio and Fartwell pushing the Lunar Festival, encouraging Mass Transit use, and explaining the Xenophobia behind masks.

logic says

Trump is just not cut out for the job.

What makes your guy Biden better?

Not expecting cogent answers.